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Blurring Gender Boundaries in Japan

There seems to be a rising trend in Japan of boys wearing skirts. Which I think is pretty cool. The article links this trend to "Vegetarian Boys" - that is, boys who don't spend their time "hunting" girls. The second article frames this as a problem that will exacerbate Japan's decreasing birth rate, and of course places the blame on gender equality.

Is someone here who is Japanese or has an understanding of Japanese culture able to comment on these trends?

Posted by MarissaAO - April 17, 2010, at 11:08PM | in Masculinity
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24 Comments

[0+] Author Profile Page john7720 said:

Much like the USA it is impossible to pin down one "Japanese culture". However I did spend 2 years in Japan and I have my theories about the so called "blurring" of gender boundaries in Japan.

From our laptops in the US it is easy to see Japanese men wearing makeup and purses and the color pink as refreshing, since it seems to show that Japanese men are comfortable with femininity. From Japan it looks very different. The fact is that the majority of young Japanese women I've seen are always in makeup, skirts and high heels. Every day of the week, no matter if you are hiking around the foothills in Nara park. Planning to walk 5 miles, these women wear high heels and short skirts. Taken together I think that Japanese men are able to use hair and skin products, carry what Americans might consider "effeminate" bags, and yes even wear skirts without appearing very "girly" in their environment because Japanese women take "femininity" (the kind defined by makeup and high heels)to the extreme.

As for the low birth rates among young people I would argue that gender inequality is the problem. Young women in Japan grew up watching their mothers work full-time, do all the cooking and housework, raising the children and taking care of elderly relatives. The problem is that women are expected to work full time outside the home, but are still expected to take full responsibility for taking care of the family and home. The pay gap between women and men is even larger in Japan than in the US, women earn about 60 cents on the dollar.

There are those (mostly older) who blame gender equality on the lowering Japanese birth rate, to an extent they are right. After all, if young Japanese women had no say in the matter, the birth rate would almost certainly be higher. That certainly doesn't seem like a good solution to me though.

These articles usually make a point of claiming that the "vegetarian" boys in Japan respect women and men as equals, but then always go on to say that they prefer hobbies to dating because women "talk back" or "get old". That doesn't sound like respect to me.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_gender_gap

[0+] Author Profile Page sillyrabbitgendersforkids said:

A discussion of gender politics in Japan would take pages. However, shortly:
One way to view the reaction to this is the birth rate issue.
The decling birthrate in Japan is a huge thorn in the side of the far and center right. They view it as a continuing humiliation that Japan must suffer left over from World War II. (Well that is true with the far right more so than the center, look up the Japanese Uyoku to read of their politics). A low birthrate is seen as leading to a decline in Japanese innovation and economic power as well as an increase in immigrant workers.
Every so often a conservative Japanese lawmaker will make some telling comment referring to these issues. One occurrence a few years ago had one offical, Yanagisawa, saying what translated essentially to, "the problem today is that the machines aren't producing enough." Machines referring to Japanese women. A Time article is here: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1585798,00.html

Another instance that was less laughable was in reference to the Super Free rape club at Waseda University. An LDP lawmaker, Outa, attempting to apologize for the men said, "Gang rape shows the people who do it are still vigorous, and that is OK. I think that might make them close to normal,"
About the crime: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/weekly/news/nn2004/nn20041113a4.htm
About the comment: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3025240.stm

So, all of this being said, there is a conservative idea that anything that does not promote male dominant relationships that later lead to marriage and child bearing is a mark against Japanese men. It is very difficult for males who fully participate in Japanese society to break away from solely focusing upon male dominant sexual relationships. So this could be a conscious break from that.
Another angle is Japanese fashion subculture. One could make a comparison with Gothic Lolita fashion. That fashion idolizes a child-like aesthetic that attempts to remove over sexualization from daily life.
As with so many things based on personal decisions, it could be a combination of all of these ideas.
Now, these are lots of generalizations that would require a full discussion, but these are some of the ideas that came to mind upon reading the articles.

I have lived in Japan for 2 years now and I must say the rising trend of boys wearing skirts is limited to a very small population of boys in the bigger cities. It isn't as common as people make it seem.
A lot of the trends that get attention are not as big as they seem. They are often only seen in the bigger cities, which are limited to certain prefectures. Many people have this belief that Japan is limited to Tokyo and this is not the case.
In terms of blaming gender equality to the decreasing birth rate in Japan, this is always the case. It is to my knowledge that the government acknowledged that they believed the declining birth rate are linked to the increasing of jobs for women and the fact that they expanded the retirement age. It is so easy to blame women, however, I don't believe it is only tied to the increase of "equality", but there is something more to it.

I'm neither Japanese nor very knowledgeable about Japanese culture, but that these boys who don't actively pursue girls are called "vegetarian" is just fascinating to me. I wonder how attitudes about vegetarianism differ in east Asian cultures as opposed to in American culture; my (male) partner and I are both vegetarian and are always interested to see the way that eating or not eating animals is linked with hegemonic masculinity and virility (we always notice this when we're browsing cookbooks in a bookstore) and thus implicitly with femininity too. Thanks for posting on this, I hope some other people can help contextualize this for us - really interesting!

[0+] Author Profile Page Selidor replied to paperispatient :

I've seen the term 'herbivore' used more often than 'vegetarian' for this phenomenon, which I presume comes from the idea of herbivore animals being 'gentler'.

Vegetarianism is actually largely invisible in modern Japan. There are vegetarian restaurants to be found in the cities if you look carefully enough, but the majority of Japanese people that I've encountered living there, young and old, have no concept of vegetarianism whatsoever, and as a vegetarian I've found it extremely difficult to explain my dietary preferences.

I have yet to see any particular connection between meat and masculinity, and if it does exist it's not as visible as in say, America. If you go into a restaurant in Japan most dishes that contain meat won't even mention it unless it's a particularly key flavour/element to the meal (e.g.: I came across a 'tofu salad' that had just as much chicken in it as tofu with no mention, or in a convenience store you might find a slice of 'cheese and tomato pizza' which has ham on as well).

[0+] Author Profile Page Spiffy McBang said:

I'm in no way an expert on these things, but I'm somewhat inclined to think that skirt-wearing is more acceptable in part because there's a tradition of such clothes for men in Japan. Samurais used to wear them:

http://www.askwithin.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/barefootatMorikami.jpg

Who's going to argue with a samurai's clothing choices? (Granted, it seems unlikely this trend is based on a push for greater freedom of movement during swordplay...) The same goes for Scots and kilts- skirts on guys aren't kosher in the west, but kilts are an exception due to tradition.

As for "Vegetarian" boys, a lot of that concern probably stems from the much stricter concept of gender roles during sex that exists in Japan. The male dominates and is responsible for the female's pleasure. Some women (I don't know how many, but it's not uncommon) are taught to cry during sex to make the man feel more powerful. This exists in homosexual relationships as well. In fact, one anecdote I read from an American woman working over there mentioned how her Japanese boyfriend told her it made him "feel gay" when she acted as the sexual aggressor.

While blaming things on gender equality sucks, from a strict view of what will get men and women together (which is a legitimate concern over there), it's possibly (and unfortunately) to some degree correct. In America, if there's a guy who's rather shy or unaggressive, as long as he goes out a little and meets some people, there's a reasonable chance a girl will find something likable about him and make the first move. But because women are more or less forced into a submissive sexual role in Japan, guys who don't go out looking for women and are overall rather soft are just not going to get laid much, if at all.

[0+] Author Profile Page Icy Bear said:

I'm not Japanese, but I'm doing a PhD in Japanese studies... I think the first and foremost thing to remember about articles about Japan is to always question their accuracy. There's a strong tendency for Westerners to make some huge deal over any little thing done by any person in Japan, as a way to talk about how totally 'crazy' or 'exotic' Japan is. I don't know anything about this exact situation, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if, like, 2 boys decided to wear skirts one day and someone wrote an article about how this is the new trend in Tokyo (as I said, this may actually be a legitimate trend, I don't know, but do always be suspicious).

If we want to get into the realm of essentialist cultural stereotypes, Japanese culture is full of examples of gender-bending and gender ambiguity, both for men and women, and you could argue that androgynous people may be more likely to be perceived as attractive (at least compared to the disgust often expressed by people in the US towards androgynous-looking people). Jennifer Robertson's work on the Takarazuka Revue is a good place to look for info on that.

Also, Tokyo fashions frequently involve pretty interesting clothes, so it may just be something as simple as boys wanting to wear skirts because they're interesting.

[0+] Author Profile Page lrnelson said:

The feminization of Japanese men and the rejection by some men of certain kinds of relationships have been hot topics in Japan since before I first moved there in 2000 (I lived there for six years and am now getting a PhD in Japanese film and literature). People pointed out that a lot of Japanese men had taken things beyond the "metrosexual" moniker by wearing foundation, spending a lot of time and money styling their hair, and cultivating a kind of "soft" look. In the realm of Japanese boy bands I was always amazed that so many of the very young heartthrobs looked VERY feminine, much more so than similar bands in Europe and the U.S. Superstar Gackt (pronounced Gak-to) regularly wore colorful makeup and styled his hair in a bob. For the most part, though, all of these men and boys identified as straight, and had legions of screaming (straight) female fans. In Korea such men are referred to as "flower men" and are often indistinguishable from women until they speak. A lot of the commentary on the phenomenon has been similar to what's said about U.S. boy bands--that they're appealing because they're feminine and therefore familiar and less threatening to female fans. There are a lot of more interesting elements at play in the case of Japan, though--the all-female Takarazuka review, where women play both male and female parts and the female "men" seem to be lusted after by both straight women and lesbians; host clubs where (often male-identified) women dress as men and serve predominantly straight female clientele; "butler" cafes (sort of a response to French maid cafes) where very feminine, submissive men in tuxedos serve tea to female clients; and even a twist on the butler cafe where women dress up as butlers and serve female clients. Designations like "gay," "straight," "trans," "male," and "female" seem difficult to apply in a lot of these cases, which is kind of refreshing.

Japan's attitude toward homosexuality and gender ambiguity has always been...well, ambiguous. Male-male love was a staple of Japanese literature for hundreds of years, and any distinction between "straight" or "gay" sex didn't really exist until the late 19th century (I'm oversimplifying here, but that's the gist of it). Some people argue that contemporary Japanese culture is very accepting because you don't see much, if any(often religion-based) homophobia or public gay-bashing. At the same time, the "don't ask, don't tell" mentality runs very deep--coming out is not easy, and given Japan's propensity to look the other way when it comes to people's private lives, I think the majority of the gay community doesn't want to face the trouble that would be caused by openly declaring themselves gay. Young Japanese in particular have often played with gender roles--there was a period of time when young girls adopted masculine speech to seem cool, and guys who wear skirts or make-up can generally do so without serious fear of harassment (provided it all takes place within the context of private time and you don't bring it to the office, which would amount to a public declaration of your "difference.").

The whole "vegetarian boys" movement strikes me as similar to the hikikomori (shut-in) movement of young Japanese men and women who self-isolate to the point where they rarely, if ever, leave their bedrooms (families beg them to get out but often resort to leaving food on a tray outside the door). While hikikomori are obviously more extreme than young men who decide to forego serious "girl hunting," both groups seem to be rejecting certain aspects of the social order (you must form social bonds with certain kinds of people, men must pursue women and not the other way around, your social bonds must be arranged in a certain kind of hierarchy).

Overall I think that skirt-wearing by men and a rejection of certain kinds of sexual relationships isn't anything too new in Japan, which has a long history of ambiguity about gender and sex in the private sphere, though it's been quick to condemn public practices that veer too far from the "standard" model. On the one hand, the "vegetarian boys" seem progressive in their views, but they also sound similar to men who've started to reject "real" women in favor of pillows and virtual girlfriends because "real" women are too independent and complicated. Not sure if that's really a step forward.

[0+] Author Profile Page M-Dog said:

I was in Japan a couple years ago and this just sounds like another popular (and possibly short) trend to me. Men dressed up a lot more over there than in the US, and didn't go overboard proving their manliness from what I saw. But I also didn't see many men wearing skirts. Feminism hasn't caught on as strongly as in North America and parts of Europe. I speak as an outsider though, so this should be taken with a large grain of salt.


But in other articles on this trend it's been pointed out that while there is a current trend in Japan for some men to defy traditional gender norms many women in Japan are actually latching on tight to the traditional (non-gender equal) idea of snagging a guy who brings in the dough. These women hold unrealistic standards of men's wages, which effects relationships just as much as "grass eaters" do.

And there are also problems with real human-to-human interaction in general in Japan that have nothing to do with gender issues.

[0+] Author Profile Page Adreana said:

I’ve been studying Japanese for a year now and have subsequently emerged myself in the culture. Boys wearing skirts is just one thing that marks the change in gender roles for Japan. Also note that the number of females entering the business world, becoming professors, etc is rising (although men are still in the high majority). Another interesting thing is that ever since the Japanese language evolved, women have always spoken with a softer intonation. The very grammatical structure of “feminine Japanese” is softer. When a women says a direct command in Japanese, such as, “Stop!” it’s likely she’ll say it using different, less direct words than a man would. However, this has been changing. “Shojo” is the most popular Japanese graphic novel branch that targets women, and recently their female protagonists have begun speaking differently. In the stories, females are actually using words that typically males would only use. The topic of how linguistics, gender roles, and Japanese media intercept is intriguing and complex.

[0+] Author Profile Page Adreana replied to Adreana :

I meant *submerge*... silly me.

Gender roles in Japan's youth just isn't as binary as one might see in the western mainstream. One thing those articles didn't bring up is that Japan adapts a lot of western ideas from our entertainment. Remember Glam Rock from the 80s? Big fluffy hair, outlandish costumes, a la David Bowie? That's had a huge effect on today's J-Rock scene. Just look at Glay or Kuroyume. Those bands care less about manliness and more about flair. Their look and music carries both and neither traditional gender qualities, and these bands are both very popular.

And music is just one of countless factors that leads Japan to experiment with a more androgynous style of clothing and even culture, as seen by the "vegetarian boys." We see this in anime, live-action television, and on stage. People also seem to forget that Japan has a long history of queer/trans culture, such as the gender-bending actors of the Tokugawa period. Many Japanese back then thought the ideal woman could only be portrayed on stage by a male actor, and vice versa. In contemporary Japan, it's really not okay to be homosexual, but taking on androgynous aspects is not only still acceptable, (though it still makes a great scapegoat whenever Japan has a social or economic problem) it's far from a new trend.

As for actual contemporary differences in the dating scene, that's really hard to talk about without generalizing, especially from an outsider's perspective. I've had some male Japanese associates tell me that women their age just don't interest them, so they focus on other things in life, like their careers or hobbies. Maybe the reality of dating just didn't meet what was in their heads. My own outsider's view of it is that many Japanese teens and adults are celebrating some new-found individualism as seen by the activities those boys do in the second link. Instead of becoming a salary man and continuing the family line as soon as possible, they are just enjoying life at a more relaxed pace. It wouldn't surprise me if these guys became more interested in dating and long-term relationships later on in life, like many contemporary American men and women.

[0+] Author Profile Page trancelover said:

I am studying abroad in Japan right now.

Many gender boundaries are more fluid in Japan. Certain types of young men are not afraid to get all glammed up and do their hair or work as male hostesses and do not have as distinct boundaries of "this makes you look like a woman" as we do back in the US.

[0+] Author Profile Page Athenia said:

"There are also boys that wear “Skirts” in trendy cities such as Harajuku and Aoyama."

There's a lot of things I could say about this topic, but I figure others will get to it.

But I just wanted to say that a few boys wearing skirts in Harajuku and Aoyama is like saying the hipster boys in Williamsburg, NYC are wearing skirts. The whole country really isn't walking down that path. We talk a lot about privlege here, and I'd like to point out that the boys who are wearing skirts/not girl chasing have a certain type of privlege--having the choice to opt out of the dominant narrative.

It's all a distraction from the real problem--that the availablity of good jobs where you can have a stay at home wife and kids is declining.

[0+] Author Profile Page Sunset_winds said:

From Japan, three comments:

1) It drives me nuts how people with an agenda imply that gender equality is the cause of the low birthrate here, when according to common sense it is quite clear that the cause is actually inequality. It is very expensive to raise children in Japan, and young couples often just don't have money to have more than one, though they would like to. The reason for this is a) that married women have to keep their income very low to stay on their husbands' insurance, so they end up PREFERRING to be employed on terms where they are paid less than men for doing the same work. And b) that many men still seek lifetime employment, the starting pay for which is often absurdly low. So both young married men and young married women are kept in this hierarchical society from making enough money to result in a family income sufficient for making the number of children needed to keep Japanese society sustainable.

2) The skirt thing is not a trend in mainstream society. Trends in Tokyo high youth fashion have little relation to anything else whatsoever. Tokyo youth fashion is probably the craziest in the world but it exists comfortably in its own little compartment. Even the craziest stuff surprises no one, blips no one's radar actually, because it is considered a hobby to dress crazy like that--like dressing up in a Halloween costume every day because that's just your thing.

3) The "vegetarian boys" with no interest in sex are not the cause of the low birthrate but they are actually kind of a phenomenon, in the Tokyo area. (I think maybe a result of the traditional timidity of social behavior in Kanto + ever-increasing social exhaustion in the largest metropolitan area in the world.) When I lived in the Osaka area, where the phenomenon pretty much doesn't exist, I thought it was a fake media trend, but after relocating to the Tokyo area I observe it all over the place. There are huge numbers of young men with an inexplicable lack of interest in the opposite sex. Dating and getting sex can be much much harder for a girl here.

[0+] Author Profile Page konkonsn said:

I took a Japanese Culture class when I studied in Kyoto for a semester. The teacher was great; totally a feminist in his perspective. It was too bad the class was only once a week for about an hour and a half because we didn't get to touch on the topics as much as I would have liked.

So I don't know about this new trend since I was in Japan back in 2007, but I felt like Japanese men (in the cities, mind you) dressed a lot more feminine than men in America. There was a lot of pink and glitter in the Men's sections, and all kinds of jewelry was available. Of course, there's a huge stress on looking good in Japan...the girls dress super-feminine, so I'm sure there's a difference that's more noticeable if you've lived in that culture longer. But it reminds me of certain gothic and punk trends in the sense that boys wearing skirts isn't surprising; rather, it seems like the next logical step.

Going back to my class, the population thing is everywhere and largely blames people for not having sex when, from what I learned, it's got a lot to do with inequality:

Firstly, women want to work, and women are pretty much expected to take care of the kids once they have them. So women are delaying having families for careers (not very different from the West).
Secondly, school is expensive, and in Japan, parents are expected to get their kids in the best school and pay for it all. Having your kid work to help with school expenses (even in college) is not regarded well. So your chances of putting your child through school and having some money for retirement (which is now troublesome as kids aren't taking care of their parents like they used to) increases with the fewer kids you have.
Thirdly, the younger generation is having trouble getting work for a host of reasons, thus leading them to delay family life even longer.
Finally, becoming a citizen in Japan is kinda difficult, so the government seems to forget to count all the immigrants and even non-Japanese residents that have been there for generations but aren't citizens.

It's a complicated issue, and it's always annoying to see the popular media putting it in terms of women being less feminine and (especially in the West) the idea that Japanese people don't have sex.

[0+] Author Profile Page karak said:

Gender equality in Japan is far, far behind what the author is making it out to be. I was there studying abroad in 2007, and I attended a lecture by a Japanese woman-oriented helpgroup (I hesitate to say feminist). Some fact that stuck with me is that Japanese women are overwhelming forced out of the workforce after they are married, are refused promotions on the assumption they will get married and quit, mothers are often forced out, fired, or not hired in the first place, 3% of government representatives are women, and lastly, there are almost NO abuse shelters for women.

Japanese urban youth culture also have a heavy investment in fashion. Fashion is a good way to rebel against Japanese norms, but isn't permanent and can be taken off and on. Visual kei challenged the notion that you needed to even know the gender of the person you were speaking to.

The diving birthrate is more related to the fact that Japanese women are highly educated, and single women are given complete, accessible control to birth control and abortion, and there's little stigma to either. The decline in birthrate is also related to the fact that housing and other living costs are very high, so it is not uncommon to see someone live with their parents for a number of years (sometimes into their thirties) to save up for a car, house, or wedding, thus pushing back the age of the couple at the birth of their first child, and making it more likely she won't choose to have more children.

The Japanese decline in birthrate has more to do with affluence and education that actual gender equality, in conclusion.

I say all this as a person who's taken a few classes, been there a few times, and likes the jfashion movement, so I don't claim to be an expert, and I am merely sharing my opinions and observations without any claim to being right.

[0+] Author Profile Page lemur said:

I've been studying Japanese language and culture for the past 7 years, and I hear a lot of people blaming feminism for the declining Japanese birthrate.But the fact is, Japan is not a very feminist society- especially when it comes to the work force. Women are not avoiding marriage and children because they don't want to. They are avoiding it because of the expectation that they will quit their jobs and be housewives.

[0+] Author Profile Page blondeintokyo said:

Well....I have lived in Tokyo, Japan for 17 years, so I think I have a relatively good handle on Japanese culture. This trend was first noticed around a couple years ago or so ago, and it has been increasingly commented on in the media. Some Japanese companies are now actually targeting their marketing campaigns at these guys- apparently it's the new niche market, so you can imagine that the number of them is not that small.

In a way, it's true that feminism is "to blame" for this trend. Japanese men who are shy or timido have a VERY hard time handling outspoken, strong women who are not afraid to speak their minds. "Feminist" is still considered an insult, and many girls still go out of their way to appear "kawaii"- cute, helpless, and deferential. Thus, a strong outspoken female seems to them to be an aberration, and a scary one at that. Having been catered to by women their entire lives (including mother) they simply don't know how to handle it.

But I take this new trend as a good sign that Japanese women are moving forward. Many are staying single later and later in life, and some don't marry at all- partly because they are unable to find a man who can accept that they want a career. They have their own hopes and dreams, and aren't interested in simply following their husband around cleaning up his messes, having his babies, and supporting him in his career. They want it all and aren't willing to settle- good on them!!

That said, I began seeing around five or maybe six years ago a subset of young Japanese men who do believe in the equality of women, both at home and in the workplace. These guys have grown up with strong female figures, (usually their mother worked) and as their female colleagues are demanding more respect, the men are beginning to see they deserve it. It's fairly common for men in their 20's and early 30's to have a wife that works, and a lot of couples are putting off having kids because of the expense and lack of daycare facilities.

The declining birthrate IS huge problem in Japan, but the politicians are too old (average age: 65) and conservative to realize that the old way of women staying home simply isn't viable anymore. It's not the fault of "feminism" but a sign of the times- things are changing. It's a knee-jerk reaction for them to blame feminism, as most of them are so entrenched in their misogyny to understand that not everyone thinks like they do these days.

I would also say there is one final factor at work here- poor interpersonal communication skills. This is especially so among men, as they are unused to expressing their feelings and since the paradigm has changed, they are rather bewildered by the new set of rules they must live by in order to have successful relationships with these outspoken women. According to a 2007 survey by Durex, Japan was one of the lowest ranking countries rating sexual satisfaction. If men and women can't communicate, then obviously, their sex lives will suffer- and what brings couples closer together more than sex?

I'm not Japanese, nor an expert in modern Japanese sociology (Meiji Era Japanese history I'll claim some expertise in), but I may have some insights.

First off, I think this is mainly sensationalistic rather than anything else.

Japan has a shrinking population and many people see that as a very bad thing indeed, one of the perennial topics for editorials is the "problem" of the shrinking population. Heck, there's porn based around it, yes really.

I don't think the "Vegetarian boys" thing is new, or anything other than the usual "ZOMG some boys are kind of shy!" ranting you see from patriarchy whenever they notice that some people don't even try to meet their bizarre standards and the Japanese version of patriarchy is often bizarre even by patriarchy standards.

I will note that there is some pretty extreme gender segregation in Japan. All girl or all boy schools aren't at all uncommon, and even at mixed sex schools children are strongly socially encouraged not to mix with the other sex. Childhood friendships are virtually exclusively same sex, and interaction with the opposite sex is minimal until dating.

Which means, for a lot of boys (or girls), the first time they even consider really talking to girls (or boys) is when they think about dating.

Then there's social conventions and language. Japanese is a high context language, vagueness, insinuation, dancing around the point, etc are all encoded into the rules of the language and considered social virtues. In America simply approaching a person and asking for a date is sometimes intimidating. In Japan even directly broaching a social question of that nature is socially difficult and linguistically sounds brash and possibly rude.

The Japanese social ideal is to delicately talk around an issue so that, without anyone directly saying anything about it at all, you come to a consensus about what is to be done. That's damn hard when striking up conversations with random people.

So you've got people who, most likely, haven't really had any significant interactions with the opposite sex until they get the rush of teenage hormones, a language that encourages vagueness, a society that values consensus achieved without ever saying anything direct, etc.

Worse, is that the ideal of Japanese patriarchal manhood is supposed to be the strong silent type who never says much anyway. Back in the mid 1980's there were advertisements for beer that featured the then most macho Japanese actor around. He had a glass of beer in his hand, he was looking sternly at the camera, and the caption read "Men, shut up and drink [beer brand]". The "shut up" meant something along the lines of "be strong and silent like a man should be".

And then we also add the virgin/whore dichotomy that is very much alive and well, the fact that woman on the pedestal is a huge feature of Japanese society, etc.

Japanese men have never been easy speaking with Japanese women in social situations. Nothing new here at all. This is just the usual conservative handwringing you see all the time.

[0+] Author Profile Page MarissaAO replied to sotonohito1 :

"The Japanese social ideal is to delicately talk around an issue so that, without anyone directly saying anything about it at all, you come to a consensus about what is to be done."

I would imagine that this would cause all kinds of problems when it comes to consent. (But maybe not, if that's the way you're used to communicating).

[0+] Author Profile Page Kurumi & Cheese said:

I've lived here a while and spent a good chunk of time studying the culture on a sociological level, so I would think I'm qualified to comment on it.

First, I often see the men referred to as "herbivores," which conjures up a lovely image of women as meat. (If we assume carnivores are men who are interested in sex.) As far as skirts go, I see nothing unusual about it, as it's just a progression from dangly earrings and makeup, which are both par for the course for men in Japan and other Asian countries. (Korea, particularly.) Men in Japan seem to be either very fashion and image-conscious or 100% unaware that other people see them. Those who care about fashion and stuff are just as trend-following as women are stereotypically assumed to be. And realllly susceptible to media hype and fads. So if some celebrity somewhere said, "Skirts are awesome," they'll all wear skirts. Whether or not men will continue to wear skirts for any lengthy period of time remains to be seen. Although in some fashion niches I have seen man-skirts marketed for years.

As for herbivore/vegetarians, the conservative idiots in the Japanese government who whine that the "baby making machines" aren't making enough babies will blame anything but themselves. Surprisingly, stuff is a LOT better for women here than it was even 10 years ago. And it's still pretty awful. You're still nudged out of the labor force if you have a baby, and then it is totally legal to say, "No applicants over 35!" for a job. So when you quit your job to have your baby at age 30 (most here marry pretty late) and want to wait til the kid's 6 or 7 before you try to work again, you're screwed.

This recent phenomenon of men who don't care for sex may contribute to a decline in the future, but it certainly can't be blamed for any problems at the moment. And it's bad enough that I meet a lot of women who, if they had had a REAL choice, wouldn't have gotten married or had kids, but felt it was their duty to society. If a guy wants to play with fashion rather than bang chicks, what's the point in forcing him? Everyone should have that option. The option to do what you want with your life. And if that leads to the self-destruction of Japan? So be it. (IMMIGRATION. OPEN IT UP TO IMMIGRATION. But after seeing the thoughts today on long-term residents getting the vote--"Japanese citizens get to vote because they pay taxes and this buys them that right! And non-citizens shouldn't get to vote because even though they pay taxes, I don't like them!"--I doubt they'll be open to that in the near future.)

[0+] Author Profile Page Whitefox said:

I just feel that this article should be linked

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-06-02-japan-women-usat_x.htm

As someone who travels to Japan regularly and has a nubmer of Japanese associates, I've heard that even considering the amount of genderbending/genderplay that goes on in Japan and certain elements of Japanese culture that there a still a number of expectations on the part of men, based on entrenched gender roles, that women of a certain age will marry and behave a certain way in that marriage. I've been told that because of this that Japanese women often don't want to have sex because they aren't interested in all the baggage that comes with heterosexual relations.

But similar things are true for men. A number of Japanese men I know don't want to be involved with other people and aren't pursuing sex, and not necessarily because the women are "too modern", but because they have other concerns.

[0+] Author Profile Page MarissaAO said:

Thanks everyone for commenting! It was clear that there was a lot that the articles weren't getting at. Knowing that Japan is very patriarchal/hierarchal, I had assumed that gender roles had to be rigid as a consequence. It is eye-opening to learn that patriarchy and rigid gender roles don't have to go together, and it got me thinking about why that's the case in North America. Which made me remember that the American masculine ideal - based on the acheivement of the "American Dream", and competitiveness - a masculinity that always has to be proven, is reletively new in Western culture. That I had to be reminded of that fact speaks to how pervasive gender policing is, I think, the degree to which gender markers are conflated with gender roles

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