Sen. Alexander: Using Reconciliation To Pass Health Care Reform Would ‘End The Senate’
Sen. Alexander: Using Reconciliation To Pass Health Care Reform Would ‘End The Senate’
Today, Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN) appeared on ABC’s This Week to discuss last week’s bipartisan health care reform summit. During the summit, Alexander urged the President and Congressional Democrats to “renounce” the idea of using budget reconciliation to pass health care reform. Alexender went even further today, saying that the use of reconciliation would be “the end of the Senate“:
The reconciliation procedure is a little-used legislative procedure — 19 times, it’s been used. It’s for the purpose of taxing, spending, and reducing deficits. But the difference here is, that there’s never been anything of this size and magnitude and complexity run through the Senate in this way. There are a lot of technical problems with it, which we could discuss. It would turn the Senate, it would really be the end of the Senate as a protector of minority rights, the place where you have to get consensus, instead of just a partisan majority.
Watch it:
If using reconciliation were really “the end of the Senate,” the Senate would have died a long time ago, and Lamar Alexander would have been complicit in its death.
Reconciliation has been used to pass at least 19 bills, including major pieces of health care reform legislation like the Children’s Health Insurance Program and the Medicare Advantage Program. Fourteen of the times reconciliation was employed it was used to advance Republican interests.
Furthermore, Alexander himself has personally voted for reconciliation at least four times, as Igor Volsky pointed out:
– 2003 Bush Tax Cuts: The Congressional Budget office, Bush’s tax cuts for the rich increased budget deficits by $60 billion in 2003 and by $340 billion by 2008. The bill had a cost of about a trillion dollars. [Alexander voted yes.]
– 2005 Deficit Reduction Act of 2005: The bill cut approximately $4.8 billion over five years and $26.1 billion over the next ten years from Medicaid spending. [Alexander voted yes.]
– 2005 Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005: The bill extended tax cuts on capital gains and dividends and the alternative minimum tax. [Alexander voted yes.]
– 2007 College Cost Reduction and Access Act: The bill forgave all remaining student loan debt after 10 years of public service. [Alexander voted yes]
In the end, Alexander’s mere presence on television this morning seems to indicate that using reconciliation does not, in fact, end the Senate.
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Bring it on, cracker.
February 28th, 2010 at 1:44 pmMaybe we could use a fresh start, Lamar…
February 28th, 2010 at 1:44 pmBut, but, but, reconciliation should only be used when republicans are in power! WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
February 28th, 2010 at 1:46 pmApparently, Reconciliation is OKIYAR.
February 28th, 2010 at 1:47 pmI heard the other day that Reconciliation has actually been used 22 times, not 19, and 16 of those times was by the Repugs. Lamar can stop being a Drama Queen now(”end the Senate”…uh huh! Sure!)
February 28th, 2010 at 1:48 pmHmm, I don’t remember reconciliation having ended the Senate before when you used it, ‘LAMAR!’. (I just loved his old campaign posters with the exclamation point.)
February 28th, 2010 at 1:49 pmHmmm it didn’t end the Senate when the republicans used it to pass tax cuts for the wealthy so suddenly we are led to believe that using reconciliation to push a bill through which helps Americans get affordable health care will end the Senate.
BAH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!
And end the senate is a bad thing?
Most Americans except for the senators, their families and lobbyist friends, probably wouldn’t have a problem with ending the senate. Nothing gets done there anyway.
February 28th, 2010 at 1:53 pmI can’t wait to hear dr.runt1’s take on this!
February 28th, 2010 at 1:54 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Typical republican, using the strategy of fear to scare the public and….the democrats.
Use reconciliation and forget bipartisan support!
February 28th, 2010 at 1:55 pm‘BOUT TIME to end the dictatorship of small minds representing small states. The Senate is the biggest flaw right now in the U.S. excuse for democracy.
February 28th, 2010 at 1:57 pmThen the Senate should have been ended one of the SIXTEEN times the Rethugs used it when Dubya was the King.
February 28th, 2010 at 1:57 pmExcuse me, I mean Dubya and Clinton……….when he had a Rethuglican legislature.
February 28th, 2010 at 1:58 pmBy ‘protecting the minority’ rights I gather Alexander is talking about the insurance cartel?
February 28th, 2010 at 1:59 pmPlease, a partisan majority????? What a load of crap. Majority rule has never been about including the losers. Consult with them yes, but capitulate to their demands in the name of playing fair? The Repubs have never played fair. If they had, they would still be in power.
February 28th, 2010 at 1:59 pmSen. Alexander: Using Reconciliation To Pass Health Care Reform Would ‘End The Senate’
And that would be a bad thing because…………??
February 28th, 2010 at 2:00 pmit would really be the end of the Senate as a protector of minority rights
Exactly! The republicans are the victims here and its important to console their power grab as opposed to the majority governing (gasp) with its majority agenda.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:01 pmBy ‘protecting the minority’ rights I gather Alexander is talking about the insurance cartel?
No, I think he was talking about the poor, put-upon lobbyists.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:02 pmglogrrl has it EXACTLY RIGHT….’Then the Senate should have been ended one of the SIXTEEN times the Rethugs used it when Dubya was the King.’
It can’t be expressed any better.. just to add that Alexander could be added to the pile of ‘also tried a talking point once’ losers that tend to get stacked in the dust bin of history as they fade away… AND if there is anyone more deserving to fade away than Lamar, they’re hard to find..although McSame, Coburn and the ‘mountain’ are CLOSE to the top of that heap.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:03 pmYanno, the insurance folks are bringing this on themselves. They were so confident they had defeated insurance reform they immediately ran out, as a group, and decided to raise rates to make up for market investment losses and losses of young healthy clients who couldnt afford health insurance.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:04 pmNo, I think he was talking about the poor, put-upon lobbyists.
Oh BS, these lobbyists, because they represent many corporations, and because dollars get more voting power, are not a minority group and have for far too long run rampant helping create huge amounts of debt thats slabbed unto the taxpayers backs.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:07 pmMy problem is that while the reporter did say the Republicans have used this procedure a number of times THEY ALL let these guys get the last word while distorting the facts…the MSM flat pi$$es me off.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:16 pmExaggeration, fear-mongering, & lies. The Republican Way.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:17 pmOBITUARY:
February 28th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
WTF! Revisionist history, yet again? And the sad thing, Americans are buying this sh*t. I don’t know what is worse, this lying SOB, are the public for being so f-ing stupid.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:20 pmXisithrus says:
Hey… if they don’t protect their profit margins, who will?
February 28th, 2010 at 2:22 pm‘Die’ is the key word in my party.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:23 pmXisithrus: I think you forgot to factor in the /snark factor in my remarks. When speaking of lobbyists, that goes without saying.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:24 pmJane E. Schneider says:
That’s HEDLEY…
February 28th, 2010 at 2:25 pmFunny how the Republicans suddenly come out in favor of minority rights only when they find themselves in the minority. After watching Max Baucus waste the entire summer with his futile bipartisan poker game with a bunch of obstructionists who never intended to support any viable health plan I can say with great confidence that the Senate as currently configured is in a persistent vegetative state. After watching some senile cracker from Kentucky single handedly block extension of unemployment benefits while whining about having to miss a basketball game I respectfully suggest that pulling the plug and adopting reasonable majority rules is in order.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:26 pmHow about asking “Senator, to what extent is your position based upon the insurance lobby that contributes to your campaign”?
Why don’t they ask these questions?
February 28th, 2010 at 2:26 pmThe Republic of Stupidity says:
Hey… if they don’t protect their profit margins, who will?
If we won’t up for the bullies, who will? We’re all they have in this world.
*sniff sniff*
February 28th, 2010 at 2:28 pmMSM always lets these get away with lying. ALWAYS. Why didn’t anyone call him on this. MSM knows that the Repugs shoved all kinds of legislation down our throats, this pisses me off to no end.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:30 pmAnd the interviewer, having done his homework about reconciliation and it’s use in the past, followed up with what question? The media is worthless.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:36 pmReally, when you get down to it, why ARE Republicans so very afraid of HCR?
Do they think it will ensure Democrats’ popularity? Or is it something else? That they will lose a big portion of their donations?
It is hard to figure.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:37 pmkaboom!
February 28th, 2010 at 2:41 pmWhen I saw the lineup of guests on the morning shows today, I kept the TV off and worked the Sunday crosswords instead.
I can’t tolerate any more of repugniscum revisionist history, scare tactics, and the hosts letting them lie with impunity and go unchallenged.
Morning hosts should do their homework, but they are obviously more concerned with their ratings, and their own jobs, abandoning the journalistic mission of keeping the public informed.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:41 pmit would really be the end of the Senate as a protector of minority rights, the place where you have to get consensus, instead of just a partisan majority.
– - Imagine there were just two candidates running for president and the winner HAD to get at least 60% of the vote. We’d never elect a president.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:42 pmjjm@35, They are terrified it will be successful. Look at Medicare and Socail Security. They know it is the kiss of death if they dismantle them. but they try again and again. Remember Bush’s push to privatize Social Security? They had to abandon it immediately. I hear Repugs say the want to get rid of it and back-track right away. Repugs hate any programs that help people. They hate Government all together. They are souless cretins.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:43 pmThe collective votes of Mr. Alexander and many of his colleagues have already “ended” the Senate as a chamber for the People. No need to worry about that…
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog
February 28th, 2010 at 2:45 pm#35 jjm
Very good question. Are they terrified about a Democratic victory (yes).
I’ve asked it before and will ask again, what has the Republican party EVER done for the common man? Teddy Roosevelt excluded lol.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:45 pmP.D. says:
They hate Government all together.
Hey, that’s not true! We only hate government that works for the people. Big, clunky government that jerks off contracting firms and sends home pork to tucky is just fine with us! I am a believer in government being a palace for the rich.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:48 pmR.I.P.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:50 pmXisithrus says:
Yanno, the insurance folks are bringing this on themselves. They were so confident they had defeated insurance reform they immediately ran out, as a group, and decided to raise rates to make up for market investment losses and losses of young healthy clients who couldnt afford health insurance.
Reminds me of a little story:
February 28th, 2010 at 2:50 pmA man and his wife had the good fortune to possess a goose which laid a golden egg every day. Lucky though they were, they soon began to think they were not getting rich fast enough, and, imagining the bird must be made of gold inside, they decided to kill it. Then, they thought, they could obtain the whole store of precious metal at once; however, upon cutting the goose open, they found its innards to be like that of any other goose. (Copied directly from Wikipedia)
Moral of the story:
Greed destroys the source of good. And
Those who want too much lose everything.
Alexander=Drama Queen
Seriously, all this hysteria over the exact same tactics they used (and abused) for years.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:50 pmGood. Kill it dead, just like all the bills they’ve killed by being so ‘deliberative’!
February 28th, 2010 at 2:52 pmP.D. says:
Repugs hate any programs that help people. (Correct)
February 28th, 2010 at 2:53 pmThey hate Government all together. (Wrong: they love it for war-mongering, and when they are in power.)
They are soulless cretins. (Correct)
They already publically stated this.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:56 pmDeath panels didn’t do it. Lets try the end of the world.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:57 pmHere is a news flash for Senator Alexander:
The Senate has passed a health care bill. The only question is which parts can be reconciled with the House bill. Most of the Senate bill is what is going to be used for reconciliation. Even without reconciliation, the House need only vote on the Senate bill and it would become law. The Senator is too late to whine about reconciliation.
And another news flash:
The Senate ended about a year ago when Republicans threatened filibusters on virtually every bill and presidential appointments.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:58 pmRepublicans would rather go “step by step”, because they know the only steps that can be taken by paygo rules are ones that would reduce spending. Any increased regulation, taxes, or entitlements couldn’t be done. The option they’re providing is one that is clearly unworkable. They know it, and they should be called out on it.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:00 pmEnd the Senate? Well – I can’t exactly say that those jobs are worth more than the ones that will be created by reforming health care.
Wrong argument Lamar – most people would LOVE to see you lose your job right now.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:07 pm*
#43 – Dixie blood . . . . R.I.P.
Awesome!! Thanks!
February 28th, 2010 at 3:09 pm*
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
I say we need to expand the senate and align it with state population. CA accounts for almost 12% of the US population, WY is 0.17% and each have two senators. As Chris Rock would say, that ain’t right.
Or, do away with the senate and greatly expand the house.
In the meantime, the racist/corporate agenda against our president isn’t going away anytime soon. Batten down, reconciliation will likely shake up the rubes and their pitchforks.
While we’re at it, let’s get that public option back in.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:12 pmProtecting the minority is one thing, but a majority is still a majority. If the Senate dies because of passing legislation by a majority, then it would have died in a good cause.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:14 pmGO HERE to contact this fool:
Email:
http://alexander.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=Email
Phones:
http://alexander.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=OfficeLocations
…what a maroon.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:14 pmDuring the health care summit Mitch McConnell quoted de Tocqueville’s warning about the tyranny of the majority. GOPthugs want to their tyrannical majority back and will do whatever they need to do to get it including delaying health care reform until November. That’s their reconciliation.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:15 pmtexasrick says:
#35 jjm
Very good question. Are they terrified about a Democratic victory (yes).
I’ve asked it before and will ask again, what has the Republican party EVER done for the common man? Teddy Roosevelt excluded lol.
Yes none of them can mention anything.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:16 pmIts funny as well cause they could always say Eisenhower and the interstate hwy system. But guessing Ike is not repubicant any more.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
I have an idea. Let’s wrap flags all over everything while we b itch about the big bad broken no good government…. This goofballs are so amusing…
February 28th, 2010 at 3:24 pmthese…
February 28th, 2010 at 3:25 pmIf we can stop reform maybe the insurance companies will trickle me down a nice teabagger bonus and send me luv letters for life.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:26 pmThe troll doesn’t acknowlege that the reason we are broke is because of Bush’s tax cuts for the super wealthy and the war in Iraq. I wonder if he has Social Security or Medicare? I remember one troll slamming us for supporting Health care reform, but he woundn’t tell us if HE recieved benefits. What a coward.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:27 pmekidon
Thans for the idiots guide to what Rush TOLD you to think. Most of the world has national healthcare systems and they do fine. We are 37th on the quality list and pay MORE than any country in the world per capita for our healthcare. Being allowed the FREEDOM to get the healthcare you have the MEANS for is what allows 45 thousand Americans per year to DIE from lack of access to healthcare. If you need a transplant and cant pay for it YOU DIE. They dont even put you on the list. No other industrial country in the world lets you DIE because you are poor. How does it feel to be so brainwashed? To do the bidding of corporations and wealth you will NEVER enjoy at the expense of the LIVES of your fellow citizens. If you had even the vestige of a soul you would be ashamed
February 28th, 2010 at 3:28 pmThe death of the Senate would be a good thing. It is an inherently undemocratic organization – Wyoming gets one vote for every 270,000 residents; California gets one vote for every 18,000,000.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:29 pmekidon says:
And people think it will be better when the government runs the whole healthcare system. Think about it.
Healthcare will end the healthcare everyone enjoys today. And break the bank ta boot. Good program if you need a revolution to transform america.
That sums up the great fallacies of your argument against the health care bill. If you don’t have insurance, then you don’t have health care. The health care bill is not going to break the bank. However, the more people that are uninsured means public aid picks up their health care and that costs just as much as the health care bill.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:30 pmekidon is another soulless rightwing weasel that doesnt care WHO dies as long as it puts a couple of shekels in a rich mans pocket
February 28th, 2010 at 3:31 pmSocial security-broken
Wrong. Perfectly healthy if the federal government would stop raiding it.
medicare-medicaid-broken
Bzzzt. Wrong again. Try taking it away from the elderly and see what happens.
DMV/Post office-broken
When did the DMV become a federal agency?
Nothing is wrong with the post office. For 44 cents, you can have a letter delivered anywhere in the US, even in the most remote regions of the country. I had two CDs delivered to me from England to Oregon in three days — Royal Mail and USPS. That’s broken? The Post Office took a huge hit over the last few decades because their prime income source, business mail, largely switched to free email services. There is nothing in the USPS to suggest that it is “broken.”
I guess you think the Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard are broken as well, huh? Big federal bureaucracies, all of them.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:32 pmpags@67, LOL! That’s the LOGICAL argument. The troll doesn’t seem to think ‘Logically’.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:33 pm“It’s always a question of the House having to make the legislation bad enough to get it through the Senate”. David Swanson make the case that the end of the Senate is a good idea. Video http://bit.ly/cttLOJ
February 28th, 2010 at 3:34 pmI agree if you are terminally ill, you should be allowed FREEDOM- the ability to do whatever is whithin your means as far as treatment of any kind. I don’t care if that is M&M supossitories. Healthcare will end the healthcare everyone enjoys today.
The ability to look at the health care menu and choose which treatment you like best is the Freedom ™ we all enjoy. Most people are not being priced waay out of the marketplace, and that’s why they don’t need anything called health insurance. So the next time you libs are standing in a Wal-Mart isle pondering over which piece of cheap crap to run through the self-checkout isle, think about the Freedom ™ republicans give you to pay that 35% premium hike. Also think about how the the insurance companies would stop the train to make sure ekidon won’t get hurt for his kind words.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:34 pmMaybe the free market will devise a health care drive-thru, or (getting giddy here) mebemebe a Burger King Dollar Menu Appendicitis. Free market solutions are AMAZING!
February 28th, 2010 at 3:37 pmP.D., it’s the age-old Republican strategy: insist that government can’t work, then get elected and prove it.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:40 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
ralph@74, Yeah, they are successful in that regard. Every time a Repug is in the White House, they screw everything up. Then in comes a Democrat to fix it. If the Reagan years taught us anything, is that Repugs LOVE to run up our debt.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:44 pmralph the wonder llama, official spokesllama for the Llama Milk Council® says:
P.D., it’s the age-old Republican strategy: insist that government can’t work, then get elected and prove it.
And then we have to elect the Dems to clean up the mess.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:45 pmJT
Always the programmed talking point. Yes it CAN be helpful to consumers as it doesnt allow ALL the insurance companies to relocate to the lowest common denominator state and sell substandard insurance. Rather they have to meet state guidelines.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:48 pmJT_Lancer says:
Should any healthcare reform considered include eliminating some government-imposed barriers to competition?
These regulations essentially cut off customers from 95% of the available health insurance providers. This can’t be beneficial to consumers, can it?
The state regulation protect consumers from various insurance practices. Selling policies across state lines is not the problem. Insurance companies are free to do business in any state. But they must comply with the regulations. That is what the insurance do not want to do. Just like credit cards, insurance companies will sell policies in least consumer friendly state.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:48 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT_Lancer says:
February 28th, 2010 at 3:49 pmThe problem with that idea JT is that you would then have a “race to the bottom.” The Insurance companies would use the states that impose the lowest standards possible to set the standards for national coverage. That is not reform. That would be highway robbery.
Which is what the Insurance Industry already does.
JT_Lancer says:
Should any healthcare reform considered include eliminating some government-imposed barriers to competition?
For example, most states (if not all) PROHIBIT their residents from buying health insurance from out-of-state providers. This essentially gives in-state providers a monopoly.
These regulations essentially cut off customers from 95% of the available health insurance providers. This can’t be beneficial to consumers, can it?
It should be done in a way that federalizes a package of good state regulations so that insurance companies actually compete and won’t be able to see potential customers as ripe for the pickin’.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:49 pmJT
A bogus stat. About 3/4 of the debt was run up under REPUBLICAN presidents. Reagan alone took us from being the number one creditor nation in the world to the number one DEBTOR nation in the world
February 28th, 2010 at 3:51 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Both parties do share blame for this JT but not equally. It was the Party of Bush that gave us Two Unfunded Wars, a 1.8 Trillion Dollar Tax Cut for the Wealthy and a Unfunded Medicare Perscription Drug Plan which essentially is a rip off of consumers.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:53 pmIt seems to me that both parties share the blame.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:53 pm—
Don’t tell the righties that. They will wanna hang you. They are fiscally responsible doncha know….
Sure, that can be considered. But why is it that the Right insists that their proposals be “considered” while refusing to consider responsible proposals from the other (majority) side?
It’s like what O’Reilly said during his interview with Jon Stewart:
But the president won’t give the GOP anything… Why not just put it in (talking about tort reform).
That’s not how negotiations work. The more powerful hand does not just “give” things to the weaker. Those things can be offered, but they have to be exchanged for something else of value. Republicans are not willing to offer anything of value to the administration, yet they demand to have their ideas (such as they are) included. It’s absurd but then, that’s pretty much the territory that conservatives have carved out for themselves lately.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:54 pmJT
How far does this have to be dumbed down for you? Having state guidelines GETS you better protection and better insurance only BECAUSE Insurance companies cant all move to a state that doesnt HAVE those guidelines and sell from there. What is it about this simple concept you cant seem to understand?
February 28th, 2010 at 3:54 pmWould you benefit from that restriction?
February 28th, 2010 at 3:55 pm—
If my state banned cadmium, lead, and mercury in that item it should would….
JT_Lancer says:
So, how am I protected when the state prevents me from buying health insurance from an out-of-state provider? All these other providers comply with their state’s regs. Don’t you think there’s a bit of overkill there?
The state is not preventing you from buying the policy. The insurance company is the one preventing you from buying because they do not want to do business in your state. The reason they do not want to do business in your state is because of state insurance regulations. If the insurance company wanted, they could comply with the regulations and sell the insurance.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:55 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Approximately 58 of the last 60 federal budgets have been deficits
February 28th, 2010 at 3:56 pm—-
This made me laugh. It is an excellent example of uncertainty masked as certainty
This troll is brain-washed with Repug talking points. Hey troll, do YOU receive S.S. or Medicare?
February 28th, 2010 at 3:56 pmOh, puh-lease!!! Stupid whining obnoxious piece of rotting dogshit!!
Spare me.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:57 pmJT
True and every year but ONE they passed LESS than Reagan asked for. Reagan was elected. Congress WANTS to give a president the ability to do the things he ran on. That is until THIS congress. Reagan deserves a good deal of the blame.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:58 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This Senate does not deserve to be continued. Let’s end it.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:59 pmYes, and Clinton had a Republican-majority Congress when he ran budget surpluses. But you know what? That same Republican-majority Congress was in place when George W. Bush turned those numbers on a dime and immediately started running big deficits again.
What changed? Not the party in power in Congress. Just the party in the White House.
February 28th, 2010 at 3:59 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Sen. Alexander: Using Reconciliation To Pass Health Care Reform Would ‘End The Senate’
From what I have been hearing, the GNOP used reconciliation 16 in the last 22 times…. we do remember when they used reconciliation to push the Bush tax cuts through – that along with the phonied up wars which brought our country to it’s knees.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:01 pmThat the word approximately makes no sense if you follow it with whole numbers like 58 of 60….
February 28th, 2010 at 4:01 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
No, your insurance company decided it did not want to do business in NC because NC saw fit to protect its citizens in different ways than IL chose to.
I thought you guys were all about “States’ Rights”? Or is that only when they don’t conflict with “Corporate Rights”?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:02 pmThis morning on Face the Nation:
Costs could be lowered up to 16% by changing tort reform and eliminating fraud, said (Tom) Coburn.
Hell, I don’t know about the eliminating fraud part (I’m all for it, but won’t that mean hiring more auditors..who’d need to be, you know, paid?) but tort reform by itself literally CANNOT reduce cost by 16% as I’m sure Coburn already knows.
Medical malpractice suits account for 1% to 2% of health care costs. Malpractice insurance premiums account for only a tiny part of the cost (one fifth of one percent from what I’ve read). So where did Coburn get his 16%? Frank Luntz?
Watch out for the ratcheting up of the lies and distortions this week!
February 28th, 2010 at 4:02 pmSo where did Coburn get his 16%?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:03 pm—
He was using that magical “approximately”….
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
All these other providers comply with their state’s regs.
And the republican solution would be to put an end to that.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:03 pmYou’re right; don’t bother analyzing whether one party has a better record on fiscal responsibility than the other. Just blame both parties equally. Much simpler that way.
(I wonder if this poster would be so quick to blame both parties equally if it were the Republicans who had the better record on fiscal matters? Anyone care to hazard a guess?)
February 28th, 2010 at 4:04 pmJT
Yes and I guess you also find it hard to blame murderers when there are jaywalkers running around free. When ONE party is MUCH worse about debt than the other. It is a false equivalance to pretend they are BOTH to blame. Perhaps they are but nowhere NEAR equally
February 28th, 2010 at 4:04 pmJT_Lancer says:
The state IS preventing me from getting that policy. We moved to NC from IL a few years back, and I was forced to cancel my policy (which I was happy with) because of state prohibitions.
You have to admit that this policy keeps proces high for consumers.
That is not true. Each state (see the 10th Amendment) is free to enact laws that do not belong to the federal government. The states that have prohibitions in their insurance law is because the state legislature has expressed its intent to stop such practices.
The insurance companies can sell their product in all 50 states. The fact that you cannot purchase an out of state policy is because the insurance company does not want to sell in your state subject to the state regulations. Got it?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:04 pmIt already has!
February 28th, 2010 at 4:04 pmSomeone needs to send Lamar Alexander some smelling salts. He sounds like he’s getting a little faint.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:04 pmMy mistake — I jumped to a conclusion based on your prolific use of Republican talking points.
I bet you’re a “libertarian with conservative leanings”… am I close this time?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:05 pmJT
Are you just a parrot? Are you being obnoxious? Are you just being a troll? Your question was answered mulitiple times. You just keep asking it over and over. COST is not the ONLY consumer protection.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:06 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Very well said, Eugene.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:07 pmWhat we have here, is a condescending troll. He tries to appear as if he is trying to be sincere in his arguments when he obviously is a smug Repug. I see it all the time. Rick Santorum had that sneering, belittling attitude.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:08 pmI don’t know when this happened, but it seems ubiquoutous… the front and middle gets skipped and ya go right to the end, it’s like insurance companies are in the business of making a profit, and GOP congress members are in the business of preaching propaganda and getting reelected.
Something is getting lost here. Like governing?
How long would you keep your job if you failed to do what you’re getting paid to do?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:08 pmJT
I dont see the benifit of asking the same question over and over and ignoring the answers
February 28th, 2010 at 4:08 pmCome on man, you looked liked a fool during the summit, just as you do now. You are lying and you know it.
LIAR
President Obama told the truth, while all you oldass, racist, mean repugs did were to make campaign speeches otherwords, told LIES.
repugs don’t have solutions because they’re the problem.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:09 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
A “libertarian” is a straight ticket voting Republican who can’t admit to themselves that they voted for and supported the failed Bush Presidency.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:09 pmThe libs just explained that regulations protecting consumers have to remain intact while the barrier on interstate competition can be overridden.
Why are you still stuck on square one?
It has to be constructed in way that promotes competition because the insurance companies’ instinct is a race to the bottom.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:09 pmis 95% another approximation?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:09 pmThank you Ralph. I appreciate that
February 28th, 2010 at 4:10 pmYou really seem to think that there are laws that prohibit insurers registered in any state from doing business in other states.
This is flat-out wrong.
Each state has its own insurance regulations. Insurance carriers decide on a state-by-state basis whether it is profitable enough for them to do business in that state.
No one that I know of says that because Insurance Company X does business in our state it cannot do business in other states, which is what you seem to be suggesting.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:10 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Sen. Alexander: Using Reconciliation To Pass Health Care Reform Would End The Senate”
Good Riddance! … don’t let the screen door hit ya … and all that.
Sure, like those Senators would hop off the Gravy Train for any reason! As if!
February 28th, 2010 at 4:11 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
And no one is saved by pretend doctors. Especially not little boys with bad legs….
February 28th, 2010 at 4:12 pmI think reconciliation is a done deal, in the senate, and it will get 51 votes. Sen. Alexander is merely laying the ground work for the inevitable Howling.
The problem will be with the House of Representatives. Each and every house member is up for reelection this November.
Abortion funding is a wild card .
Nancy Pelosi will earn her keep….Health Care Reform will, IMHO, depend on her skills and abilities.
My crystal ball tells me the action will be with the House, not the Senate.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:12 pmekidon says:
February 28th, 2010 at 4:14 pm“Sorry” You , ekidon are on SORRY idiot.
JT_Lancer says:
Perhaps the states should offer some reciprocity agreement that allows carriers registered in any state to do business in other states.
I just don’t see the benefit of prohibiting consumers from accessing 95% of the market.
The benefit is to protect you from certain insurance practices such as preexisting conditions, recissions, etc. The states do not need reciprocity. The insurance companies have the freedom to sell in any state provided they comply with the regulations. The insurance companies need to stop doing sneaky shit just because a state allows it. Regulations are enacted because of those sneaky practices.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:14 pmDo you disagree?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 4:14 pmNot at all. I figured you just pulled it out of the air
JT
Why are they different? Perhaps because the 50 states are different and their legislatures enact with different priorities in mind. I am not an expert on the differences in different states for their insurance industry. QUALITY not cost but it IS a protection. Can your insurance company DENY coverage for things on one state but not another? THAT would be a protection. Can they demand you see THEIR doctor even in an emergency in one state and not another? THAT would be a protection. Whatever the differences are they are mandated by LAW enacted democratically. The Insurance corporattions would LOVE to all go to a state that doesnt put ANY meaningful restriction on how they screw you and sell insurance from THAT state. Not being allowed to do so IS a consumer protection. This cannot be stated any simpler so if you ask this question again it will be CLEAR you are just being a troll
February 28th, 2010 at 4:15 pm@127, STFU! Thousands die needlessly EVERY YEAR. You are a worthless, ignorant troll. Only a moron would make a statement like that.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:15 pmI’m getting very tired of these whiny republicans who have no memory of the last 8 years. Have they all gotten alzheimers? Or do they think we have?
How many people actually support these cretins?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:15 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
The number one way to fix the malpractice and high malpractice insurance rates issue is to take the power to strip the medical licenses from bad doctors away from the doctors in general and give it to the people. Take it out of the hands of the doctors who side with bad doctors in most cases.
It’s an “old boy (girls too) network” that needs to be destroyed.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:18 pmekidon says:
I’m going back a little, but Nobody Dies from lack of insurance. Period. So stop talking about the re-hashed false horror stories. Lack of insurance causes Bankruptcy and adds to the national debt, but this is a monetary issue, not one of life and death. That is just mis-information to sway the uninformed.
Damn right. The poor can have health care insurance if they don’t mind living in a cardboard box. Lots of people do it. (sarcasm off)
February 28th, 2010 at 4:18 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
@138, You have been debunked and and your arguments are specious. Do us a favor and just leave.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:19 pmJT_Lancer presents his arguments with all the intellectual rigor that one would expect of a fictional incarnation of “Magnum P. I.”
And I say this as one who has freely chosen the screen name “ralph the wonder llama”.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:20 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Well, I see that folks in here are open to new ideas and reasonable discussion of the issues.
—
February 28th, 2010 at 4:23 pmHow many freakin times does it have to be pointed out to you that insurance companies are free to operate in any state so long as the meet the expectations and guidelines enacted by the citizen legislatures of said state mister open minded?
So, the point being made here is that state-imposed restrictions on consumer choice is a good thing, and it has no effect on the costs of these services to consumers.
Is that about right?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:23 pmIs this a rhetorical question that pretends that the answer has not already been proffered several times?
I hope so, because otherwise it just paints you as exceedingly dense.
“For every complex question, there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong”
H. L. Mencken
February 28th, 2010 at 4:23 pmekidon says:
I’m going back a little, but Nobody Dies from lack of insurance. Period. So stop talking about the re-hashed false horror stories. Lack of insurance causes Bankruptcy and adds to the national debt, but this is a monetary issue, not one of life and death. That is just mis-information to sway the uninformed. Sorry.
Where’s your Harvard study for proof, lad?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:24 pmmary lacewing says:
This morning on Face the Nation:
Costs could be lowered up to 16% by changing tort reform and eliminating fraud, said (Tom) Coburn.
If Congress could get out of bed with the insurance industry we could see cost cutting by going single payer.
With single payer, besides giving all access to HC, we could :
- cut costs of auto insurance
- eliminate workman’s comp
- cut the burden of HC costs for business.
But no… we have to stay entangled with the insurance industry.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:24 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
ekidon:
February 28th, 2010 at 4:26 pmHow do you feel about liars? Do you think they do a disservice to the cause?
ekidon
You are either a liar or a brainwashed moron. People who cannot afford a transplant DIE. They arent even put on the list. Your only right is to be STABALIZED in emergency conditions. If you need ongoing treatment say chemotherapy and you cant afford it YOU DONT GET IT. You dont get SEEN until its an emergency and often what COULD have been a simple cure has BECOME a deathsentence so NO it is NOT a false horror story it is that pesky reality you HATE so much.
http://bobsnewheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/pay-up-or-die-no-money-no-transplant/
I’m angry!!!. Many of our citizens are sick and dying because they can’t afford healthcare and our government is throwing money down ratholes wherever you look. In the last quarter of a century, thousands of people needing transplants have died because they could not pay for the procedure. Many of these good people were organ donors but when the time came for them to become recipients, they could not even get on the waiting list. Is that what America is about? Do we really want to say, “Sorry but no money no organ, you’ll just have to go home and die.” Actually, our nation says much the same thing to anyone who can’t afford health care. That is inexcusable! Did you know that the United States is the only industrialized nation that doesn’t guarantee healthcare as a citizen’s right?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:26 pmI think we’re beginning to see the problem here. You have no innate facility for logically processing information.
For instance, you have somehow gathered that we all believe that state-imposed restrictions on insurance practices “has no effect on the costs of these services to consumers”.
You presume this in the absence of any evidence to that effect, and in fact must rely on a robust misinterpretation of what has been written here in order to sustain such a conviction.
Either that, or you’re erecting a very unstable straw man.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:27 pmFlag@150, I hate trolls who make light of the fact thousands of our citizens die every year.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:27 pmekidon says:
I’
This ‘claim’ is silly, embarrassing and disgusting.
Crawl back into your sewer…
February 28th, 2010 at 4:28 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT_Lancer says:
In other words, consumers are restricted to utilizing only the service providers that the state says they can use. Is that about right?
The state doesn’t tell me which provider I can use. The state tells the insurance companies to provide the services for which I pay.
Nice try at tangling the debate.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:28 pmSo, by Alexander’s own admission, the reconciliation process has been used in the past 19 times.
Yet, the Senate has managed to survive; he is living proof it.
Why would using this same process a 20th time spell the end of the Senate?
Republicans are such idiots…
February 28th, 2010 at 4:29 pmJT_Lancer says:
In other words, consumers are restricted to utilizing only the service providers that the state says they can use. Is that about right?
No, consumers are free to buy any insurance policy that is offered within their state. State regulations vary from state to state. Just like criminal law, tort law, contract law, etc.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:30 pmJT
In other words insurance companies are compelled to meet certain standards or NOT do business in certain states. Why is this so hard for you to understand? If this were not so. They would all go to the state that allowed them to meet NO standards and the QUALITY of your health insurance would plummet. This is an OBVIOUS consumer protection. Your willful ideological blindness notwithstanding
February 28th, 2010 at 4:30 pmIf healthcare is a right, who is obligated to provide this entitlement?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 4:31 pmI wouldn’t call it an obligation since I do so willingly welcome the government to raise my taxes if it assists others and saves money in the long run. I have more than I need as it is.
No. Consumers are restricted to using only the service providers who decide to abide by state laws governing their industry.
The state doesn’t say “you can’t use insurance company Y”. The state says “the requirements for selling insurance in this state are X, Y and Z, and any insurance company that meets these conditions is free to do business in our state”.
You keep trying to reframe the situation so that it is more to your “government bad, corporation good” liking, but it’s not gonna work.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:31 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
OT
“Fiscally Conservative” Marco Rubio Double-Billed Taxpayers for Personal Expenses, Spends $133 on Haircuts. (Firedoglake)
Personally, this is not of particular interest to me except that it shows my that Rubio is another repugniscum hypocrite - but I can’t help but think of the media attention this would get if this were a Democrat.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:31 pmWell, then. Perhaps you can explain how state regs in all 50 states for health insurance providers are so different that none of them agree on terms?
What are the other consumer protections that are addressed by 50 different state regulations?
Hmmm I’m no expert on insurance regulations, but I’m sure that there are some basic rules and regulations that are pretty much the same in every state..For example, no company can deny coverage to people with pre-existing and all premium increases have to be approved by the appropriate state regulative body. Besides maybe if healthcare reform is enacted, we could enact a national regulative body to sort of consolidate all of the different state’s regulations and make it less confusing for consumers..
February 28th, 2010 at 4:33 pmekidon babbles:
Name one and back it up. Or just go back to Center for American Progress and read some more.
For the trolls who cannot help babbling incoherently:
“For any doctor … it’s completely a no-brainer that people who can’t get health care are going to die more from the kinds of things that health care is supposed to prevent,” said Woolhandler, a professor of medicine at Harvard and a primary care physician in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance
It’s a no-brainer for anyone with an ounce of gray matter.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:33 pmJT
Are you really this stupid or is this some kind of bizzare performance art? It didnt say it WAS a right in the US. It said this was the only industrial country it WASNT a right. We COULD make it a right democratically under the provide for the general wellfare clause IF we so choose. If we did so it would become a Federal responsibility and we would need to enact a National healthcare plan just like the REST OF THE INDUSTRIAL WORLD.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:33 pmActually, you may be saying that NOW, but what you said earlier was that those of us in this discussion believed otherwise, and you said this without any textual basis for doing so.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:34 pmJT_Lancer says:
If healthcare is a right, who is obligated to provide this entitlement?
Look up all the doctors in those industrialized countries who are part of the solution.
In the U.S., the government subsidizes just about every medical school, including for research, and yet the end product the patient isn’t guaranteed to afford despite the taxpayer investment. That’s a giant loose end that needs to be tied.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:34 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Marie@165, If the people of Florida vote for Rubio, then they are morons. The man was busted using the Repugs money as his own personal stash. And your right. The way MSM is treating this whole ‘Reconciliation’ process, you would think it has never been before. The Repugs used time and time again. Big Business LOVES them Repugs, they get their un-Godly tax breaks from them.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:35 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
More OT (TPM)
(Sorry, but the threads are sparse on weekends, and get overtaken by trolls too often)
Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) has forwarded materials on the writing of the torture memos to state bars where John Yoo and Jay Bybee are licensed, calling on the bar association to consider possible disciplinary action..
The torture memo by the Justice Department’s ethics office concluded that Yoo, now a professor at Berkeley, and Bybee, now federal judge on the ninth circuit, committed professional misconduct in their drafting of the memos that authorized report.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:35 pmIt is a big country isn’t it….
February 28th, 2010 at 4:36 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT_Lancer says:
Actually, what I am saying is that state restrictions on consumer choice increases the costs of these goods and services to consumers.
Maybe individual consumers should be allowed to choose for themselves.
If you want to buy an out of state policy then call the insurance company up and tell them to issue you a policy that complies with your state’s regulations.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:36 pmGregor, that’s the tricky thing. When you actually come up against someone who actually has no brain, like our friend here, it demonstrates the flaw in the phrase “no-brainer”.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:37 pmActually, what I am saying is that state restrictions on consumer choice increases the costs of these goods and services to consumers.
Nooo they actually attempt to prevent consumers from getting screwed over by the insurance companies..They don’t restrict choices and raise prices. On the contrary, they increase choices because consumers would be able to see exactly what they are buying, just like buying goods in a store.
Maybe individual consumers should be allowed to choose for themselves.
Yep, but they need to be given the right tools to make informed choices first..That’s the whole point of regulating the insurance companies in the first place; it keeps them at least semi-honest.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:38 pm(Sorry – I thought they were still going on (and on) about tort reform. Now all the focus is on being able to get screwd, I mean being able to buy insurance across state lines?)
What Obama said this past Friday:
I actually think that on the purchasing insurance across state lines, there may be a way of resolving the philosophical difference — not entirely, but — but there’s a potential way of bridging this gap, and that is to say that once there was a national exchange, with some minimum standards, then potentially you could just have a national marketplace and anybody could be able to sell into the exchange.
So much for the over-state-line obstruction..I mean, issue?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:39 pmJT
You keep acting like there will be a CHOICE. What we are saying is there is only such a CHOICE because they cannot do business across those lines. If they could they would all move to a state that had NO restrictions and your choice would DISAPPEAR. Your healthcare quality would plummet. You would have NO CONSUMER CHOICE IN THE MATTER. Your choice NOW is to buy any insurance that complies with state law. Perhaps road building companies should be able to do shoddy work and cause accidents and deaths because the state they COME from does not have the protections the state they are doing bussiness in. Perhaps supermarkets should be able to sell substandard food because the state they are BASED in doesnt require the standards the state they sell the food in. Sure thousands would DIE but HEY those corporate profits would sure look good.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:39 pmJT_Lancer says:
The unfunded liability to Social Security is $14 Trillion. The unfunded liability to Medicare is $&4 Trillion. The govt’s prescription drug benefit liability is $18 Trillion.
The unfunded liabilities are because a certain president used the SS and Medicare funds to start a war. The budget surpluses he was left were to be used to pay back SS and Medicare the monies that had been borrowed against those funds. But that certain president created an unnecessary war and the surpluses disappeared.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:40 pmI see the character that Tom Berenger’s character played in The Big Chill has given up on his “out-of-state insurance” game and has switched over to Medicare.
This tells me he has few if any convictions and is just looking to stir up conflict with right-wing — excuse me, libertarian? — talking points.
Gee, we haven’t seen that kind of behavior around here before…
February 28th, 2010 at 4:40 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Marie@174, Just today, Yoo was congradulating himself for being ‘cleared’ of any wrong doing. In his opinion piece (Yea, the SOB has a opinion piece in the Philly Inquierer) he, again, excuses himself for torture. I hate that man.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:40 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
ralph the wonder llama, official spokesllama for the Llama Milk Council® says:
it demonstrates the flaw in the phrase “no-brainer”.
No kidding. How would the lack of medical care not lead to unnecessary deaths?
The troll’s little “come back” just boggles my mind…
February 28th, 2010 at 4:42 pmMarylacewing
As long as there were reasonable minimum standards I would have no problem lifting this restriction.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:42 pmmary lacewing says:
What Obama said this past Friday:
I actually think that on the purchasing insurance across state lines, there may be a way of resolving the philosophical difference — not entirely, but — but there’s a potential way of bridging this gap, and that is to say that once there was a national exchange, with some minimum standards, then potentially you could just have a national marketplace and anybody could be able to sell into the exchange.
The reforms in the health care bill will go a long way to standardizing policies across the 50 states. That will allow insurance companies to sell in states that they have no presence.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:43 pmNot sure that the government is experts at saving money. 58 budget deficits in the last 60 years?
Thank a Republican..
The unfunded liability to Social Security is $14 Trillion. The unfunded liability to Medicare is $&4 Trillion. The govt’s prescription drug benefit liability is $18 Trillion.
Again, thank a Republican for their party’s desire to go to war and also issue tax breaks to the top 1% of taxpayers and corporations at the same time and raiding the Social Security fund to pay for it. As for medicare, remember part D which was basically an unfunded subsidy to the pharmaceutical industry, with the “doughnut hole” and everything.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:43 pmJT_Lancer says:
Medicare unfunded liability is $74 Trillion. That’s a lot of dough. Where will it come from?
The GOP’s gloomy projections become gloomier by the day, in accordance their your need whine their asses off.
Didn’t we just come off whining that the democrats were going to cut $500B from Medicare?
To refute yet another bombastic talking point, however: that figure, in context, is a long-term projection, based on present economic conditions. And since economic conditions are record piss-poor, thanks to the policies of your party the last eight years, a surplus is pissed away and revenues are sharply down. Therefore, the bad outlook is moved up until the economy recovers.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:44 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT
You are obviously a parrot with no brain. It has repeatedly been pointed out that the only reason there is a CHOICE at all is because all the companies can not move to a state that allows NO real standards and THAT is all you can get. You just parrot the same thing over and over and over and OVER without addressing the refutations. I think you are a troll
February 28th, 2010 at 4:45 pmJT_Lancer says:
So, consumers should be PROHIBITED from making the best choice for their families because the state says otherwise?
I am sorry but I only speak English and Italian. I have tried to explain the issue to you in English. Do you want me to try in Italian? Maybe you would understand the nuances better.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:46 pmI suppose he has a beef with the EPA and NASA as well…. Well so be it…
February 28th, 2010 at 4:47 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
So, consumers should be PROHIBITED from making the best choice for their families because the state says otherwise?
I can make the “best choice” for my family today and, regulations removed, the insurance company could decide not to honor it.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:47 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT
What is your alternative. Allow drug comapanies and food providers just sell whatever they want? How many deaths do you think THAT would cause? Do you CARE? Are you another of those wingnuts who dont care how many people DIE as long as it puts a couple of shekels in the corporate coffers?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:47 pmJT Loser – Okay, now you’re getting comical! Are you literally reading your talking points off a list or something? Ha ha – seriously,
“That’s a lot of dough, where will it come from?”
Ha ha, too much.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:48 pmCrossing state lines to buy insurance means that all the insurance companies will move their operations to the states with the weakest insurance regulations, the race to the bottom. If buying insurance across state lines was adopted, it would mean that federal regulations would be required to prevent insurance companies from screwing us, again. The right wing makes this argument about buying across state lines because they damn well know what will happen. And what I dont’ understand is that if you are not a major stock holder in an insurance company, or a Republican politician, how can you possibly support such an idea?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:48 pmJT_Lancer says:
So, consumers should be PROHIBITED from making the best choice for their families because the state says otherwise?
So, companies should be allowed to offer services and products that have not been tested or, worse yet, sell products that have been shown to cause harm?
Would you trust a person or company who cannot be compelled to comply with minimum standards of quality?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:48 pmIf only more people would be considerate enough to be organ donors. Some folks are so lazy, spoiled, and inconsiderate of others…
February 28th, 2010 at 4:49 pmOh Gawd, more nonsense out of the GOP’s mouth…
February 28th, 2010 at 4:49 pmI’ll add him to my village idiots collection.
ekidon says:
So again, NOBODY dies from lack of insurance.
Where’s your Harvard study for proof, lad?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:49 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
It is when it’s presented as one-dimensionally and shallowly as you have done here today.
To be more precise, it’s not “consumer choice” that’s a right-wing issue. It’s that you present government regulation — in this case, state regulation — as an anti-consumer evil.
That is a right-wing framing all the way, and that is what I was referring to. Hop[e that clears it up.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:50 pmEugene Debs sponsered by the Church of the presumptious assumption says:
As long as there were reasonable minimum standards I would have no problem lifting this restriction.
Yes. This sounds somewhat promising.
Btw – love your new name, it’s fun to say. :)
February 28th, 2010 at 4:50 pmlinzloo08 brought to you by I Want My Country Back, Inc.!! says:
Oh Gawd, more nonsense out of the GOP’s mouth…
I’ll add him to my village idiots collection.
Thank you.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:50 pmnot blind idealogues
February 28th, 2010 at 4:51 pm—–
Tell me your fears of the big bad government taking away guns again. I really enjoyed that one…
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Hey JT,
February 28th, 2010 at 4:52 pmHow much are they paying you at Redstate to post here?
5 cents? 10 cents?
They should ask for their money back!
ekidon
You clearly both a liar AND a moron. You cant even decide which argument to make. If I need a transplant I will get one because my medical insurance is that good. If a trailertrash moron like YOU needs one you will DIE from lack of insurance. Then you ask if it is a RIGHT? Make up your mind. Either you DONT die because of lack of access to healthcare of you DO because it isnt a right. My GOD you are stupid.
The facts have been explained to you. 45,000 people per year DIE from lack of access to healthcare. This according to a HARVARD MEDICAL STUDY. Do you have a ACTUAL counterargument here or are you going to just continue to SPEW out that water isnt wet and expect us to do anything but point at you and laugh.
Stupid, brainwashed and uninformed is no way for you to go through life. Grow up
February 28th, 2010 at 4:52 pmJT_Lancer, I’d suggest reading a copy of Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle” before you go down the deregulation path to absurdity. If you want to give up inspection of food, I’d then suggest you move to Somalia.
So, consumers should be PROHIBITED from making the best choice for their families because the state says otherwise?
We should probably not let states regulate licensing of any kind, either, right? For that matter, why not just let anyone hang out a shingle and claim to be a physician?
This is a pretty decent illustration of how ridiculous libertarian ideology is.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:52 pmIt is amazing how these right wingers go criticize Bush after he is out of office, where were they when he was in office? There are three possible explanations: hypocrisy, dishonesty or racism.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:53 pmYour choice not to buy from them should not be forced on someone else who many want to make that choice.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:53 pm—
So why have any regulations at all?
What the GOP REALLY means … says:
——————————————————————————–
linzloo08 brought to you by I Want My Country Back, Inc.!! says:
Oh Gawd, more nonsense out of the GOP’s mouth…
I’ll add him to my village idiots collection.
Thank you.
Hehe anytime.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:53 pmSome talking points are just so deeply rooted in delusion that it’s not even worth pursuing. The refutation has been posted, and the troll still insists that its imagined reality is the one the rest of us inhabit.
So be it.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:53 pmFor the knowledge-challenged visitor:
By the 1930s, muckraking journalists, consumer protection organizations, and federal regulators began mounting a campaign for stronger regulatory authority by publicizing a list of injurious products which had been ruled permissible under the 1906 law, including radioactive beverages, cosmetics which caused blindness, and worthless “cures” for diabetes and tuberculosis. The resulting proposed law was unable to get through the Congress of the United States for five years, but was rapidly enacted into law following the public outcry over the 1937 Elixir Sulfanilamide tragedy, in which over 100 people died after using a drug formulated with a toxic, untested solvent.
Wikipedia – Food and Drug Administration (United States)
This is what happens when there are no laws regulating what someone can sell to a trusting public.
How about that, JT? Is that what you’d like to go back to?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:53 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT_Lancer says:
Perhaps. But if its in the insurance contract – coverage they say they’ll provide, but don’t – then you can take them to court. It’s a binding contract.
I can take them to court and in the meantime the hospital could dump “what’s best for teh family” to the curb. So regulation has more of a preventative effect so I don’t have to rack up legal bills in addition to medical.
Are you a mouthy call rep at some Ailes-run business or something? Because you sure are good at giving the run-around.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:56 pmJT
You are a sad joke. First you do understand it is pretty hard for dead people to SUE anybody right? Second good luck putting the lawyer YOU can afford up against the DREAM TEAM of lawyers your insurance company will haul out
You arent FORCED to buy food and medicine? Sure I guess you can starve to death or allow treatable illnesses to kill you that IS your choice. Do you even READ the tripe you toss out? You dont think at ALL do you? For you it is just which talking point goes HERE?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:57 pmOh, did you cheat sheet tell you to spout pro-pot talking points to us if the subject of the FDA came up?
You’re so transparent I can hardly see you!
February 28th, 2010 at 4:57 pmJT_Lancer:
February 28th, 2010 at 4:57 pmJust for fun why don’t you make me a list of how state regulations assist the consumer. Afterward you can compare the two lists and see which makes more sense to you…
Can we trade JT in for an intelliegent troll?
February 28th, 2010 at 4:58 pmI’m sure there are some out there.
Later – I’m experiencing rightie talking point overload. Good luck.
February 28th, 2010 at 4:58 pmlinzloo
If you ever find one point him out. I have been asking for one for about a year now
February 28th, 2010 at 5:00 pmRe: Alexander’s comments: I hope the Senate does use reconciliation and does pass some sort of healthcare reform. Further, I hope the vote IS the end of the Senate as we now know it. The Senate has become incredibly disfunctional and undemocratic, where the majority of the Senators represent a minority of the American people. It’s undemocratic and I don’t believe the Founding Fathers intended to have the majority to be ruled by the minority. Sorry, but IMHO the Senate needs a complete overhaul vis a vis its composition. Instead of two per state, no matter the population of each state, population needs to be factored into how many Senators each state has. Majority rules!
February 28th, 2010 at 5:00 pmSafe food and drugs is not something an individual can really evaluate. By the time you find out the product you bought is dangerous, the damage is done. Then if your not in the funeral home, you can find out from your hospital bed if your insurance is any good. Government has a role, to do those things that individuals cannot.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:00 pmSome trolls have the intellectual capacity of a fruitfly. I am afraid JT doesnt quite meet that standard. Cant we get a federal minumum standard for TROLLS?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:02 pmlinzloo08 brought to you by I Want My Country Back, Inc.!! says:
Can we trade JT in for an intelliegent troll?
I’m sure there are some out there.
eee … HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I have twenty on staff and the only ‘intelligent’ thing about them ends with ‘design’.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:03 pmEugene Debs sponsered by the Church of the presumptious assumption says:
——————————————————————————–
Some trolls have the intellectual capacity of a fruitfly. I am afraid JT doesnt quite meet that standard. Cant we get a federal minumum standard for TROLLS?
Can one of the standards be that they have to have an I.Q. of at least 70 or above?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:04 pmRepublicans are fine with rats and maggots in their hot dogs. what could be more patriotic than a little Salmonella for the Free Market. Not to mention union busting, outsourcing, executive bonuses and corporate welfare. Amen. Praise Jeebus.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:05 pmIn reading the comments between the regulars here and JT, I believe JT will never open his mind to understand the very well-made points of argument offered by the regulars.
He apparently has a good income and good health; he fails to understand anything other than his own financial stake in anything. It’s a typical repugniscum attitude – his words belie his denial.
The health care reform promises to reduce the deficit according to the CBO – why doesn’t that resonate with repugs?
Uninsured people cost everyone $$, both in taxes, and in increased premiums tro the insurance companies.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:05 pmIf Insurance companies (and their 28% administrative overhead) were simply eliminated from the equation, everyone would see immediate savings. They provide nothing but bureaucracy between patient and medical care providers, all the while collecting ever-increasing premiums, needed to pay their execs wa-a-ay too much money, and to pay their lobbyists wa-a-a-y to much money to keep the status quo.
linzloo
I am afraid that standard would wipe out 2/3rds of the trolls at TP
February 28th, 2010 at 5:05 pmSometimes. But the relentlessly negative framing of the issue is pure right-wing, which was my point. The inability to acknowledge the usefulness of government regulation, and indeed the myopic affixing of blame that did not belong on regulation is, again, what I was referring to in your posts.
I think so, but that’s hardly the extent of drug laws, especially when it comes to health care. If we’re going to have a system where trained physicians are responsible for prescribing drugs to patients (which I think is a good system) then we ought not to allow pharmaceutical companies to advertise directly to consumers, for instance. That treats a medical decision as a consumer decision, which is the wrong way to go and I think a big part of why our health care system is as fu(ked up as it is today.
Of course, you’re free to argue that all medications ought to be over-the-counter and available to anyone who wants to treat their condition in any way they choose. Now THAT’S freedom, right?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:06 pmdbadass says:
JT_Lancer:
Just for fun why don’t you make me a list of how state regulations assist the consumer. Afterward you can compare the two lists and see which makes more sense to you…
Nice. He does seem to have a lot information at his fingertips after all.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:07 pmMarie
ABSOfriggenLUTELY. Single payer is the answer
February 28th, 2010 at 5:07 pmWiz says:
You’d tink this would be obvious, especially in light of Chinese baby formula w/ melamine in it, or even the ongoing the tomato paste/bribery scandal.
Some folks really, truly, are simply to F-in’ stupid for their own good…
On the other hand… I do have some monuments and a bridge for sale…
February 28th, 2010 at 5:07 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Eugene Debs sponsered by the Church of the presumptious assumption says:
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linzloo
I am afraid that standard would wipe out 2/3rds of the trolls at TP
Is that a bad thing?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:09 pmlinzloo08 brought to you by I Want My Country Back, Inc.!! says:
Can one of the standards be that they have to have an I.Q. of at least 70 or above?
HEEEEEEEEK HEEEEEK HEEEK!
SON, what do you think this is, a Holiday Inn?
HOOOOOOOOORK HORK HORK!!!!!
February 28th, 2010 at 5:10 pmEnd of the senate? Well maybe a smaller river of money flowing from the Insurance industry to their favorite Senators.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:10 pmOh what do I know?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 5:11 pmAfter that silly shit about guns, I am not sure the answer to that is anything but rather little…
JT_Lancer at least seems to deal with something approximating the real world. He doesn’t seem to recognize much of it, but at least that’s what he’s trying to deal with.
ekidon, on the other hand, is out in wingnutloolooland.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:12 pmedikon
Some died because they couldnt AFFORD healthcare until it was an emergency and WOULD have been easily treated in earlier stages. That is DYING from lack of insurance. Some died because they couldnt AFFORD transplants and didnt even get on the list for one. THAT is dying from lack of access or insurance. You are just flat out WRONG. Its that simple. You can keep pretending the LIE you told was true because you are JUST. THAT. BRAINWASHED. No one in their right mind is taking you seriously. Thanks for the free clown show. I do love to laugh at morons as stupid and brainwashed as you
February 28th, 2010 at 5:12 pmOh so the libs are for regulating the degrading atmosphere my trolls bring to TP. My laughter has now turned into (red) A N G E R (red).
February 28th, 2010 at 5:12 pmIf we only had a few more firearms and ammunition we could get health care reform.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:12 pm#174 marie,
House Strips Torture Prohibition From Intelligence Bill
By Main Justice staff | February 26, 2010
http://www.mainjustice.com/2010/02/26/house-strips-torture-prohibition-from-intelligence-bill/
… Because nothing says tough on terror like TORTURING like a terrorist.
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:12 pmRalph
Or as I like to call it. Planet Wingnut
February 28th, 2010 at 5:13 pmIs that where you got your chemotherapy for the brain cancer you have?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:13 pmralph the wonder llama, official spokesllama for the Llama Milk Council® says:
Sssssssh… ralphie… or folks will think it’s okay to go to CANADA, of all places, and buy those very same drugs cheaper…
Shi-ite… they’ll just drive across the frickin’ boarder…
***Eyes roll…***
Damn criminals… taking money right outta the pockets of Big Pharma™…
Dirty, stinkin’, greedy sick people…
Cue it up, boys…
A-one… a-two… a-three…
February 28th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
When I get mad about being screwed over from ingesting salmonella in that free market hot dog, I pontificate on the toilet.
So, I’ll see ya later!
February 28th, 2010 at 5:15 pmFred ♪♫♪ says:
——————————————————————————–
ekidon says:
You can lead stupid to the emergency room, but you can’t make him get treated.
Is that where you got your chemotherapy for the brain cancer you have?
Don’t they have to have a brain in order to get brain cancer?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:16 pmI don’t think this one had a brain to start with.
He removes the cancer with an AK.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:16 pmWiz says:
Safe food and drugs is not something an individual can really evaluate. By the time you find out the product you bought is dangerous, the damage is done.
Thalidomide is the perfect example of a drug that was kept out of the US market. It caused significant birth defects in Europe where the drug was sold.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:17 pmFunny I continue to draw abuse for unsubstansiated claims, called every name under the sun and slandered by the “progressive humanitarians”….priceless.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:17 pmThe Republic of Stupidity says:
Cue it up, boys…
A-one… a-two… a-three…
Blaaaaaaaaaaaame Caaaaaaaaaaaananda…
Blaaaaaaaaaaaame Caaaaaaaaaaaanada…
WOO!
WOO!
WOO!
WOO!
February 28th, 2010 at 5:18 pmRE: “Some trolls have the intellectual capacity of a fruitfly. I am afraid JT doesnt quite meet that standard. Cant we get a federal minumum standard for TROLLS?”
Wow. Lots of name calling in here. Is that how you all treat anyone who proposes an idea or provides a reasoned debate from a perspective that you might be opposed to?
Who are the closed-minded ones here?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:19 pmUs professional victims need lots of weapons.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:19 pmI have been calling them ekidon… Weird. I thought that was what they wanted to be called
February 28th, 2010 at 5:19 pm#235 Marie,
… Because when a Republican agrees with a Liberal it doesn’t make for good political spin come election time, which it is, ALWAYS!
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:19 pmvictim card *drink*
I didn’t slander you or call you names, I asked you if you could get chemotherapy at the emergency room.
If you don’t have answers and just want to cry, why come out and play with the adults to begin with?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:20 pmWho are the closed-minded ones here?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 5:20 pmSo how are those two lists going?
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
making unsubstantiated claims does tend to be frowned on….
February 28th, 2010 at 5:21 pmekidon says:
Funny I continue to draw abuse for unsubstansiated claims, called every name under the sun and slandered by the “progressive humanitarians”….priceless.
I would never call you a name. I prefer insults that drip with sarcasm.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:22 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
RE: “So how are those two lists going?”
You are the one that assumes government regulations all benefit consumers. It seems that it would be incumbent upon to to prove it.
—
February 28th, 2010 at 5:24 pmSee this is where you lose again. You are the one making the assumptions as to my attitude toward the topic. You on the other hand have stated that regulations hurt consumers. I simply asked you to make the two lists and compare them. I think you won’t because to do so would be to expose your lack of the “open mind” you wish to claim…
ekidon
Being a progressive doesnt mean we have any reason to listen to your baldfaced lies and blatant stupidity phrased in the talking points Rush programmed you with. We get a bit testy about the twentieth time we hear the same blindingly ignorant talking point which was refuted LOOOOONNNG ago. You are full of it. Emergency rooms do NOT provide the medical care you need except emergency care. They do NOT provide ongoing care. They do NOT provide the chemo you need. They do NOT provide ongoing care. The will NOT give you a transplant. FACT people die every year from not having access to medical care. FACT tens of THOUSANDS die every year because they dont have insurance. Try for once in your life to have some dim idea what you are talking about instead of regurgitating what Rush TOLD you to think
February 28th, 2010 at 5:24 pmThis guy aint serious. The war on drugs is a profitable institution that we are now dependent on.
It’s not regulation that makes marijuana impossible for people who need it to get it, it’s the drug war.
You know, the war on citizens.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:24 pmAgreed. You need to stop doing that.
—
February 28th, 2010 at 5:24 pmCan you post cite the post numbers so I can square that away?
.
Dear JT,
For clairification purposes (because I haven’t been giving you much attention)…
… Do you think Americans deserve affordable health care?
… At what cost, the insured or uninsured?
… Or at the cost of BigPharma and Corporate “death panels”?
I read how you b!tch about the lack of State consistency…
… Ever consider how deregulation plays into that?
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:26 pmJT
There was NOTHING reasoned about your debate. You asked the same question eight or nine times while ignoring the answer. You REALLY DID say that people could choose NOT to buy food or medicine. I guess that was to bolster some claim we dont need any regulation on them. There is NOTHING reasoned about mindlessly regurgitating such silly talking points.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:26 pmJT
You are the one that assumes government regulations all benefit consumers
See this is not reasoned debate. This is an ignorant straw man argument.A logical fallacy by definition. What I think is OVERALL regulations are a good idea. No one bats 100%. What YOU seem to be advocating is ridding us of the agencies that regulate. If so it would be incumbent on YOU to show that NO regulations benifit consumers. If that ISNT your argument then you have no argument at ALL except against SPECIFIC regulations
February 28th, 2010 at 5:29 pmWhoa nelly. The end of the Senate. Somehow I think that’d be a good thing…
February 28th, 2010 at 5:30 pm.
Ode to TJ:
I’m a talking point,
And that’s O.K.
I dream all night,
And parrot all day.
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:30 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
How ya coming on those post numbers there big guy?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:32 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
RE: “How ya coming on those post numbers there big guy?”
What are you referring to?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:33 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT
Do YOU realize that many drugs that hit the market are at taxpayer expense? Even hear of TAXOL? Discoverd by the NCI at taxpayer expense. ALL R&D done by the NIH at taxpayer expense and GIVEN to Bristol Squibb Meyer to charge whatever they want for it. Last I saw they charged a thousand dollars for what cost them one hundred ten dollars to make.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:34 pmpags2 says:
Thalidomide is the perfect example of a drug that was kept out of the US market. It caused significant birth defects in Europe where the drug was sold.
I went to school with a girl from Canada, a beautiful girl, except that she had little flipper hands where her arms were supposed to be. She’d be about 48 or so now. Her Mom took Thalidomide. Mind you she didn’t seem to mind too much and had gotten very good at using her artificial arms.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:35 pmOf course, the Senate Republicans have used reconciliation on numerous occasions in the past to push through legislation that has had huge impacts on the national economy. Their response? That was different, because (blah, blah, blah).
Moral of the story — “it” (whatever “it” happens to be) is only wrong when the Democrats do it.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:35 pm.
Dear JT,
Would you be for the Federal Government regulating cross boarder options?
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:36 pmJT
Then you cant think at ALL. If you DONT get sick or disabled by a drug that wasnt vetted that means you DONT have to pay the medical costs or miss the work that DOES save the consumer money. If you DONT get salmonella because of the meat inspections you DONT miss the work, or you DONT have to pay for your childs funeral that SAVES the consumer MONEY. You are just a walking talking point and dont think out a single thing you say. Just regurgitate the appropriate bumper sticker slogan. No matter how dumb it is
February 28th, 2010 at 5:37 pmWhat are you referring to?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 5:37 pmDamn you can’t be that dumb can you. I mean I realize that you are struggling to keep your head above water around here but still…
Reminds me of REM…It’s then end of the (Senate) as we know it, and I feel fine.
You gotta love the repub hyperbole.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:38 pmRE: “Would you be for the Federal Government regulating cross boarder options?”
Are you talking about prohibition of drug imports from foreign countries? No, I am against that. I think a consumer should be free to buy drugs from another country if they’re more affordable.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:39 pm.
#284 ekidon,
EPIC FAIL!
The question is NOT how much do therapy drugs cost but instead, CAN YOU GET CHEMO TREATMENT IN THE ER? A simple yes or no is sufficient, NO?
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:39 pmRE: “Damn you can’t be that dumb can you. I mean I realize that you are struggling to keep your head above water around here but still…”
If the name calling makes you feel better, so be it.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:39 pmekidon
What exactly was that link supposed to prove? My mother in law had to have two chemo treaments a week for three months at $5000 a POP. If her insurance HADNT covered it she would have just died a year sooner
February 28th, 2010 at 5:39 pmI cannot think of a single regulation that reduces costs to consumers.
How about the one that Prevents Americans from buying their Drugs from Canada/??
BTW….America tied the Canadians in the last seconds of Regulation Time….Sudden Death Overtime for the Gold in Men’s Olympic Hockey.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:40 pmI still wanna know if doctors need to be licensed or if anyone can pretend to be one and let the consumer have more choices? I have this soft spot for pretend doctors…
February 28th, 2010 at 5:40 pmIf the name calling makes you feel better, so be it.
—
February 28th, 2010 at 5:41 pmJust post the numbers or acknowledge that you can’t and shut up…
JT
And if giving mindless talking points as answers that make you look like a fool is what you are into then I hope that works out for ya
February 28th, 2010 at 5:41 pm.
#292, JT,
No, JT. Cross States.
Should I be able to shop for affordable policies from across State boarders for a more reasonable coverage plan? Should the Federal Government REGULATE such a dynamic solution? What if they threw in an non-denial clause too?
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:42 pmRE: “If you DONT get salmonella because of the meat inspections you DONT miss the work, or you DONT have to pay for your childs funeral that SAVES the consumer MONEY. You are just a walking talking point and dont think out a single thing you say. Just regurgitate the appropriate bumper sticker slogan. No matter how dumb it is.”
So, what’s your point here? That all companies want to poison their customers while govt regulators are the consumer’s only defense?
In reality, businesses must provide a quality good or service at a price that the consumer will buy it. Otherwise, they’ll go out of business. Don’t you think its in the businesses’ best interest to retain customers?
Unless, of course, you voluntarily continue to patronize businesses that cheat you, provide poor service, and charge too much. But that would be dumb, wouldn’t it?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:43 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
RE: “Should I be able to shop for affordable policies from across State boarders for a more reasonable coverage plan? Should the Federal Government REGULATE such a dynamic solution? What if they threw in an non-denial clause too?”
Yes, you should be free to shop across state borders. You do it when you buy goods and services online.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:44 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
I thought you hated having to come here, pez….
February 28th, 2010 at 5:46 pmLonely?
.
Dear TJ,
If your batting average is 130 and someone says that you’re NOT batting a thousand, THAT is NOT an insult.
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:47 pmJT_Lancer says:
So, what’s your point here? That all companies want to poison their customers while govt regulators are the consumer’s only defense?
In reality, businesses must provide a quality good or service at a price that the consumer will buy it. Otherwise, they’ll go out of business. Don’t you think its in the businesses’ best interest to retain customers?
Unless, of course, you voluntarily continue to patronize businesses that cheat you, provide poor service, and charge too much. But that would be dumb, wouldn’t it?
I guess you have not heard about the Toyota defect.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:47 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Nobody should be fooled by the rhetoric of this sight,
February 28th, 2010 at 5:47 pm—
but they should be by the rhetoric of the Rush Limbaughs and Beck’s of the world? Tell me again how those death panels of that kook Palin where gonna kill grandma…
JT
See what you have HERE
So, what’s your point here? That all companies want to poison their customers while govt regulators are the consumer’s only defense?
Is another ignorant strawman argument. What I KNOW is that before regulation they DID exactly that. The business of business is to maximize profits and cutting corners ends up in just this kind of poisoning. It HAS happened. THAT is a fact. What they WANT is irrelevant they HAVE and WOULD if there were no regulation. Also my POINT, which should have been clear to any reasonably bright six year old as that THOSE regulations DO save consumers MONEY therefore reducing the overall cost TO the consumer. You really dont CARE how many people die in the name of corporate profit do you?
You know what ELSE is dumb? To even THINK that someone KILLED by a product will just hurt the corporation by not giving them more business. You PRETEND that the free market would just automatically fix itself yet any cursory study of history would show they DIDNT and that is what brought ABOUT such regulations
February 28th, 2010 at 5:48 pm.
#303 JT,
So you’re for REGULATION after you were against it?
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:48 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Mindless talking points = anything that you disagree with?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 5:48 pmStill struggling to find those posts?
RE: “Just post the numbers or acknowledge that you can’t and shut up.”
Are you referring to this interchange?
RE: “making unsubstantiated claims does tend to be frowned on….”
Agreed. You need to stop doing that.
Geez, it was a freaking joke. You need to lighten up a bit. Have a little fun.
You said that I was making unsubstantiated claims. Can you cite specifics?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:49 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Really? How about the regulation on insurance premiums that was in existance before the 90’s?
It seems to have lowered costs considerably when you look at premiums today.
I don’t think you know enough about this to be having the discussion. You’re just running on emotion and talking points that you have accepted without checking their validity.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:50 pmPezMORON posts another typical ignorant, no substance insult to the intelligence of any sentient being. Pez go FCUK yourself you are nothing but an ignorant punkass troll with no motive except to annoy liberals ten times smarter and a hundred times BETTER than you will ever be you miserable scum sucking pig
February 28th, 2010 at 5:51 pmYou said that I was making unsubstantiated claims.
—Try reading for content next time. The unsubstantiated claims discussing revolved around ekidon. I am becoming concerned about your cerebral capacity…
February 28th, 2010 at 5:51 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
RE: “I guess you have not heard about the Toyota defect.”
Toyota’s retribution will be in the marketplace. They have (possibly) permanently damaged their high quality status, and sales will likely suffer as a result.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:52 pmekidon
NO MORON. She would NOT have gotten the treatment they wouldnt have fronted her $120,000. God you are stupid
February 28th, 2010 at 5:52 pmcrystal ball again? That’s cute at kids parties.
wmd’s?
tax cuts would usher in a new era of prosperity
permanent republican majority.
your track record aint so good on predictions.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:52 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Jt
Yeah the idea that people should voluntarily NOT eat or buy necessary medicine LEAPS to mind
February 28th, 2010 at 5:53 pmThat regulation has never lowered costs for one. that came right out of your rectum.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:53 pm.
#309 pez,
You did a great job at describing the G(no)P-baggers…
… Why mess up such a good rant with a throw to Pelosi?
.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:53 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
pezmiztix says:
“how ignorant does a group of people have to be to think that they know what’s best for others??????”
Yeah, I know what you man, Karl Rove thought he could achieve a permanent Republican majority.
“…what makes them believe that EVERYONE else in the country is stupid and doesn’t know what’s best for them?”
It’s their favorite wet dream, starting with Reagan. (Dicky Nixon had the idea, I’m sure, but he was such a bumbler he couldn’t pull it off.)
“…the irony is, that they don’t know what’s best for them. if they cared about the people they wouldn’t be committing political suicide now would they?”
It is quite pitiful, watching every Republican across the country scramble to define themselves before their whole careers collapse.
“sick, ignorant, people…
February 28th, 2010 at 5:55 pmPelosi needs to direct traffic.
PezMORON
We dont think everyone in the country is stupid. We KNOW you are stupid. We know you are a punkass troll. We know you have no decency, no intellect, no soul, no honor, no integrity and no humanity. Just go make yourself a Drano smoothie and end the misery your very existance brings to decent human beings
February 28th, 2010 at 5:55 pmfail, again, nowhere at your link does it say you can get chemotherapy at the emergency room.
You’re looking more foolish by the post.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:56 pmRE: “That regulation has never lowered costs for one. that came right out of your rectum.”
I said that I know of no regulations that lower costs for consumers. Regulations (good and bad) impose additional costs and expenses that are ultimately passed on to consumers.
If there are some, perhaps you can enlighten me.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:56 pmIs this considered reasonable debate?
February 28th, 2010 at 5:56 pm—
I don’t know have you considered asking the pretend doctor?
PezMORON
Typical pile of dogshit only stupider. I see you are still yearning for any speck of humanity and wishing you would someday learn the joy of higer brain function. Go FCUK yourself troll. You disgust all decent human beings
February 28th, 2010 at 5:57 pmJust as reasonable as what you have brought to the table. In fact it’s more rational by quite a bit.
February 28th, 2010 at 5:58 pmHmm… “assumes government regulations all benefit consumers”… I’ve never known dbadass to be much of an absolutist before. Doesn’t really sound like a position he would present.
Can you cite the post where dbadass said that government regulations all benefit consumers?
I’d sure appreciate it.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:00 pmRE: “Just as reasonable as what you have brought to the table. In fact it’s more rational by quite a bit.”
Calling someone a typical ignorant scum sucking pig that can go FCUK himself is considered rational debate and proper decorum here?
You can cut the compassion here with a knife!
February 28th, 2010 at 6:00 pmIf that’s so then why were insurance premiums as a percentage of income lower when insurance premiums were regulated than they are now that insurance premiums are unregulated.
Go ahead, tell me you didn’t know about that.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:00 pmRegulations (good and bad) impose additional costs and expenses that are ultimately passed on to consumers.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:00 pm—
Wanna see the pictures of when the major river in my state ran red with the unregulated discharges of the industries unwilling to regulate themselves. I could care less if the cost is passed on to me. I mean I would rather the fellows that got rich off of not caring did but either way I can catch edible fish in it now…
RE: “Can you cite the post where dbadass said that government regulations all benefit consumers? I’d sure appreciate it.”
Fair enough. He didn’t say that all govt regs benefit consumers. And I agree.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:01 pmIt’s actually a good sign that our friend is seeking guidance on “reasonable debate”. It’s possible that, with some help, he may someday achieve that lofty goal.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:01 pmKiss my ASS JT
I notice you didnt take PezMORON to task for these wonderful contributions to reasonable debate.
typical progressive understanding of freedom and democracy…..
pathetic.
sick, ignorant, people. pelosi needs to go play in traffic.
I guess you think us liberals are obligated to just TAKE abuse and not give it back? That may suit YOUR agenda. I dont think it is a good idea. Until you take YOUR side to task for this kind of abuse to you are nothing but a hypocrite
February 28th, 2010 at 6:02 pmGoing OT here…
The Axis of the Obsessed and Deranged
By FRANK RICH
Published: February 27, 2010
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/opinion/28rich.html
A great read, all the way through.
.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:02 pmralph. I am absolutely sure that won’t be happening
February 28th, 2010 at 6:02 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Good deal. Representative democracy is a hell of a lot better than a system where it takes ten or 20 New Yorkers’ votes to equal that of one boob from Idaho.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:02 pmYou’re asking for compassion? Are you sure you know what the word means?
Just because we are tolerant doesn’t mean we allow ignorant bullies to run the show.
You’re the one who came here to teach us, not the other way around grasshopper.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:05 pmI am confused. ekidon thinks folks here are anachists but others are constantly claiming folks here are all about big government. What gives? Do these people even pay attention to the silly shit that type?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:05 pmJT
I SHOWED you where government regulations cut costs for consumers. You came back with some stupid strawman argument about how the poor misunderstood corporations were being given a bad rap. What was it do I think ALL corporations would just poison people. It didnt even TRY to address my point of course, it was just a throwaway strawman argument but I DID SHOW HOW THEY LOWERED COSTS TO THE CONSUMER. You ignored it. You do understand that you just arent very good at this dont you?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:06 pmekidon, here’s ya a nickle.
You fool no one.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:06 pmRE: “Wanna see the pictures of when the major river in my state ran red with the unregulated discharges of the industries unwilling to regulate themselves. I could care less if the cost is passed on to me. I mean I would rather the fellows that got rich off of not caring did but either way I can catch edible fish in it now…”
Pollution is a property rights issue. It is essentially a trespass upon the property of another, and should be prosecuted.
But owns the rivers? Why, the govt does.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:07 pmekidon
Good we enjoyed punking your stupid ass too. You are a moron and you gave us all a good laugh. Bring your stupid back some more. Your idiocy is pure comic gold
February 28th, 2010 at 6:08 pmRegulations (good and bad) impose additional costs and expenses that are ultimately passed on to consumers. -JTL
I guess you forgot that since Glass Steagall was gutted US households have lost some 13 trillion.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:08 pmAnd then there is Enron, another de-regulation disaster that robbed people of wealth. Then there is Madoff that regulators didnt do there job, effectively de-regulation that cost people billions.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:10 pmonce again, the more barry hussein talked – the more support he lost.
what ever happened to democracy?
why do progressives scream about the american people, the middle class, and average patriotic americans then tell them that THEIR OPINION DOESN’T count when it comes to health care because WE KNOW what’s best for them????!?!??!?!
am i the only one who see just how f-ed up progressives are? disgustingly dishonest and unpatriotic to the core rotten unamerican people.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:10 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
pezmiztix, how’s that impeachment coming. Don’t hear much about it in the real world.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:11 pmi now know why progressives are such hateful miserable people…..
February 28th, 2010 at 6:11 pmJT
And children who DIE because they swam in the river? Or fished in the river? Those who DIE because the groundwater became fouled before they KNEW it? Are THOSE property rights issues? Are you really this much of a corporate shill and propaganda parrot? Do you really not care WHO DIES as long as the corporations continue to make their shekels?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:12 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
pezmiztix, how’s that permanent republican majority coming along honey?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:12 pmJT_Lancer
February 28th, 2010 at 6:13 pmWhy do you think big industries hate environmental regulation? Aren’t they all about doing the right thing even if it means a reduction in profit? When I was a water chemist I convinced an employing to smuggle out of his plant samples of what they were dumping. Many of the workers knew it was wrong but they feared for their jobs. It wasn’t cool but all my private company could do was anonymously tip off those nasty state and federal agencies…
pezMORON
The more you regurgitate the talking points Rush programmed you with the more you show what a soulless, ignorant piece of shit you are. Just kill yourself punk. The world will just flat out be a better place when you no longer exist in it
February 28th, 2010 at 6:13 pmWe would show some real compassion if we only had more guns and ammo.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:13 pmI dont hate anyone Pez nor am I miserable. BTW you should get your lenses cleaned your projection is fuzzy and off kilter.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:14 pmhopefully, the shelling in november will bury the progressive movement for good…..
is there one progressive policy that that an honest progressive can claim was integral for creating an iota of wealth this country has experienced since it’ inception???
February 28th, 2010 at 6:15 pmthe answer is no.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:15 pmRE: “Really? How about the regulation on insurance premiums that was in existance before the 90’s?
It seems to have lowered costs considerably when you look at premiums today.”
I don’t know specifically what regs you refer to. And which insurance premiums? Auto? Home? Health?
Some time ago, Clark Howard spoke on his show about how life insurance premiums have dropped dramatically due to the advent of the Internet and accessibility of consumers to many more companies – even those in other states. It seems the same thing would work with health insurance.
Also, deregulation of the airlines in the late 70’s resulted in a significant drop in ticket prices and a dramatic increase in # of flyers.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:15 pmpezMORON
You dont KNOW anything. You are stupider than my refridgerator. We ALL knew how pathetically stupid and brainwashed YOU are. Just shove a chainsaw up your ass punk. I know a slow painful death is what you deserve. An agonizing death face down in a pool of your own vomit while being raped by pigs. However us liberals are a compassionate bunch so just light yourself on fire. The world will cheer as soon as the stench of your vile ignorance is removed from it
February 28th, 2010 at 6:16 pmRE: “And children who DIE because they swam in the river? Or fished in the river? Those who DIE because the groundwater became fouled before they KNEW it? Are THOSE property rights issues? Are you really this much of a corporate shill and propaganda parrot? Do you really not care WHO DIES as long as the corporations continue to make their shekels?”
So, I am a corporate shill for saying that companies should be held liable and responsible for their trespasses (pollution, in this case)? Not sure how you got that.
Do you work in the private sector or govt sector?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:17 pmWhy the hate from the Right for a President and Speaker of the house that have played ball with them and actually have included many of their own ideological points in health care reform legislation? Obama is decidedly to the right of Ike and in some cases further right than Nixon. What do they want, another Bush?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:17 pmPezMORON
The answer is you are too stupid to know history or understand ANYTHING. I would go for rural electrification, the highway system, the GI Bill for starters. My GOD you are so stupid and brainwashed it is embarassing for our entire species
February 28th, 2010 at 6:18 pmmore stupid – not stupidest. stupid.
please find human contact.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:19 pmPrivaization has created wealth, for some Pez, but for you it has created more federal debt. You see for any wealth created wealth has to be destroyed. Happy?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:19 pmToo bad PusMyTits is not human…
February 28th, 2010 at 6:21 pmpezmiztix says:
more stupid – not stupidest. stupid.
That’s rich, coming from an death-fetishist idiot who cannot use capital letters or a comma.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:21 pmJT
You are a corporate shill for pretending it is a CIVIL matter which is what property issues are. Instead of CRIMINAL liability. I dont see how my personal information is either any of your business OR relevant but I work for the BNSF railroad. An industry CREATED by tax dollars and then run for the profit of wealthy individuals. The old public cost private profit thing that is a HUGE part of our economy that you libertarians ignore.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:21 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
PezMORON
You WISH you had a life as full as mine. You DEFINE stupid. Also soulless and brainwashed. You are a dispicable husk of what a human being should be.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:23 pmeven those in other states. It seems the same thing would work with health insurance. -JTL
The health insurance folks are against that for the very reason they would lose profits. Thats one regulation they actually want which I would be hard pressed to call a regulation as its more of a protection.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:24 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
pezMORON
No one HERE is as stupid as you. Not even JT. I dont believe any sentient being on the PLANET is as stupid as you including Sean Hannity. Just kill yourself punk. The world deserves to be rid of the stench of your putrid existance
February 28th, 2010 at 6:25 pmthis one is a gas…
February 28th, 2010 at 6:25 pmtypical progressive double talk to avoid the obvious.
You think everyone in the stock market wins? Same rule applies there as well.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:25 pmpezMORON
I am sure you enjoy many things that happen ONLY in your mind. Including the touch of a REAL woman
February 28th, 2010 at 6:26 pmGet the money grubbing, paper pushing, scumbag Insurance industry out of health care. They contribute nothing but extra cost.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:26 pmmust be a full moon, the loons are in full force this evening….
barry hussein’s health care bipartisan debate!?!?!?!?
so funny, pretend bipartisan THEN turn around and sneak it through. typical progressive version of bipartisan. don’t claim bipartisan then reject bipartisan when it doesn’t go your way!?!?!?!
would be funny if not pathetic.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:27 pmIt is pretty sad that the grown men that like to behave like 14 year olds never get laid nor achieve in the workplace setting…
February 28th, 2010 at 6:27 pmas in huffing it?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:27 pmRE: “I guess you forgot that since Glass Steagall was gutted US households have lost some 13 trillion.”
So, are you implying that the housing boom and bust, and the economic downturn are solely due to deregulation of Glass Stegall? Which happened under Clinton, I might add.
Don’t forget that the government created Federal Reserve (a public cartel of private banks) controls the fiat money supply, artificially manipulates the interest rates, and prints money at will (devaluing the purchasing power of all existing dollars in circulation).
Many have acknowledged that the housing boom and bust were due to interest rates being held artificially low after 9/11 (less than 1% for over a year) and public policy from both parties that encouraged lax lending rules to allow low income and unqualified borrowers to buy homes they couldn’t afford.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:28 pmhowever, i will enjoy watching the slaughter in november
I doubt thats going to happen.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:28 pmIs barry hussein supposed to be insulting or something?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:28 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
pez is begging santa to bring him a new bicycle.
He’s used to being dissapointed though.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:29 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT_Lancer says:
RE: “That regulation has never lowered costs for one. that came right out of your rectum.”
I said that I know of no regulations that lower costs for consumers. Regulations (good and bad) impose additional costs and expenses that are ultimately passed on to consumers.
If there are some, perhaps you can enlighten me.
Most recently, new regulations to protect people from credit card companies arbitrarily changing due dates and interest rates.
For more obvious examples, you might check your utility bills. Rates charged by private utilities are controlled by government regulation, resulting in lower rates. Of course, if you’re really lucky, you get your power from a public utility.
Libertarians act like they have such a revolutionary idea which has never been tried before. If we just let competition reign supreme, prices will miraculously drop and we’ll all be much better off. The problem is we’ve seen what unregulated capitalism can do — starting with the Robber Barons of the 19th Century. It’s never pretty, except for those on top raking in the money.
Claiming that all issues will be settled in the courts is equally absurd. Tell that to the people living near Super Fund sites. Corporations aren’t “punished” and the people who are poisoned may wait decades for any recompense, even if the real source of pollution can be identified, and the corporate entities that created the pollution can be brought to trial.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:30 pmYes, and so are republican economists. You know this and you know that Clinton faced a veto override.
It was a republican maneuver honey.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:30 pmJT_Lancer what is your take on pezmiztix’s take on informed debate or don’t you really care about that anymore?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:30 pmpezMORON
Kill yourself PUNK. You are just a pathetic troll. So brainwashed you think regurgitating Rush is clever. You are a disgusting pile of dogshit
February 28th, 2010 at 6:31 pmNever fear, there are still lots of corporate donors for the likes of Lamar even if health care reform is passed via reconciliation. I’m sure he will continue to wage his war for corporations over citizens.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:32 pmRE: “The health insurance folks are against that for the very reason they would lose profits. Thats one regulation they actually want which I would be hard pressed to call a regulation as its more of a protection.”
I am sure they’re against it! I have already pointed out that some regulations actually protect big companies from outside competition. This is no exception.
In many cases, the biggest lobbyists for regulation are the big companies whose market share will be protected by regs that they can afford, but the little competitors can’t.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:32 pmSo, are you implying that the housing boom and bust, and the economic downturn are solely due to deregulation of Glass Stegall? Which happened under Clinton, I might add.
Which was during a republican controlled congress…remember Phil Gramm? The housing price bubble was going to implode without Glass Steagall. What happened is the investment bankers started investing in mortgage brokers, resulting in fraud, and when the housing bubbe blew it made the problems all that much worse as all these derivatives bets on mortgage backed SIVs also imploded. GMAC, Chrysler and AIG were all heavily involved in these. Its why the financial debacle went global because of the SIVs sold globally.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:33 pmJT
Another bogus stat. Profit? Is that AFTER their 30% overhead, their windfall bonuses to high corporate officials? They can make their PROFITS look anyway they want
February 28th, 2010 at 6:33 pmRE: “JT_Lancer what is your take on pezmiztix’s take on informed debate or don’t you really care about that anymore?”
Not really paying attention to him. The whole name-calling deal is pointless and rude.
I’m just here to present ideas. Feel free to disagree with me, but please have some respect for others, even when you disagree with them.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:34 pmYou go ahead and stay behind the blinders, you seem to be comfortable there.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:34 pmGo ahead and present an idea.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:36 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT
And yet you felt the need to take ME to task TWICE. You are a hypocrite
February 28th, 2010 at 6:36 pmNot sure if they intend it to be insulting, or simply infantilizing. Either way, it reveals the user as an unserious troll seeking only divisiveness, not constructive dialogue.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:36 pmNot really paying attention to him
February 28th, 2010 at 6:36 pm—
Those of us that do, do so solely for our own amusement…
BTW given the amount of jobs created during the previous admin [tax cuts didnt create jobs] I dont think we actually recovered from the 2000 recession. Wall street did but main street hasnt…
February 28th, 2010 at 6:37 pmPezMORON spews
Delusion, talking point, LIE, stupidity, anything BUT factual reality. Pez is a punkass troll.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:37 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Jt, is it ok with you that 44,000 Americans die each year from lack of health insurance? That number is rising.
That’s 10 times the number of people that died in 9/11 and they weren’t all Americans.
How do you rationalize that in your brain?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:38 pmmore death panels
February 28th, 2010 at 6:38 pm—
What death panels? End of life counseling has been show to be a very positive contribution to the quality of life of the terminally ill. Just ask those cancer patients in VT and NH….
Wow this one is a complete freak isn’t he…
February 28th, 2010 at 6:39 pmRE: “Another bogus stat. Profit? Is that AFTER their 30% overhead, their windfall bonuses to high corporate officials? They can make their PROFITS look anyway they want.”
Hmm… I would assume these numbers are based upon Generally Accepted Accounting Principles.
Perhaps if you have some inside knowledge as to what their REAL profits are, you can share them with us.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:39 pmPezMORON
YOU are a liar. I showed three progressive programs that created TREMENDOUS wealth. YOU are like the sweat that drips off my balls when I play basketball
February 28th, 2010 at 6:40 pmSee 60’s the years you despise and at the same time they are called the golden years.
Irony?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:40 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Good – blow up the senate (figuratively of course). It would be the best damn thing that could ever happen.
And – for all the trolls around here who are salivating, thinking there will be a slaughter in November – don’t hold your breath too long. As bad and spineless as the democrats have been (and they have sucked – at least we will admit that), the repugs are far, far, far worse, and have even worse approval ratings than the dems. If the tea party folks who are not completely brainwashed ever wake up and realize that they are being duped, then maybe they will actually have some good influence.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:40 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
As far as I can tell, the only real idea you’ve presented is that regulation always adds cost to consumers. Since gummitch effectively destroyed this idea, it’s up to you to present another.
And just to be clear, veryf ew of those who present dissenting views here are worthy of respect. Not because of their views, but because of their inability to argue for them effectively, honestly or sincerely. Once a troll has demonstrated this inability (or unwillingness) it’s basically a waste of time and energy to teat them with respect. All they are due is ridicule. Sometimes that ridicule takes the form of name-calling.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:41 pmJT
Sure as I said they can make profits look however they want. AFTER their losses in the stock market. AFTER they pay monumental bonuses. Whatever they need. As to your assumptions. They dont really mean much.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:41 pmRE: “Jt, is it ok with you that 44,000 Americans die each year from lack of health insurance? That number is rising.”
No, it is NOT OK. That is why I am presenting ways and ideas to reduce healthcare costs.
Unfortunately, because they do not involve some type of govt control or regulation (in fact, many include reduction in govt intervention), those who claim to want ‘reform’ are very hostile to these ideas.
Apparently, ‘reform’ only means MORE govt control and regulation. Ever wonder why the previous 50 or more ‘reforms’ for health care did not work?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:42 pmyou, walking around the room with your panties around your ankles begging for attention.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:42 pmHe is like a little child…
February 28th, 2010 at 6:42 pmAFTER then tens of MILLIONS they spend lobbying congress.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:42 pmdebs…
maybe you should see a professional? you don’t have to fly to amsterdam. they’ve opened a male bunny ranch in nevada?
i’ve heard their rates are reasonable – unlike yourself.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:42 pmRE: “Sure as I said they can make profits look however they want. AFTER their losses in the stock market. AFTER they pay monumental bonuses. Whatever they need. As to your assumptions. They dont really mean much.”
So, are you against making a profit for providing a service that consumers need?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:42 pmWho is this Barry? I thought Goldwater was dead.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:42 pmpezMORON
Kill yourself punkass troll
February 28th, 2010 at 6:44 pmWhy yes Pezdroppings, the Bush administration and the republican party are very, very good at transferring the wealth of the middle class up to the very wealthy.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:44 pma sad and lonly little child…
February 28th, 2010 at 6:44 pmHealth Insurance Companies are the problem not the cure.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:44 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Well, let me dumb this down for ya. That’s because what you suggest is exactly what is currently failing.
So don’t pretend to have joined the ranks of those who want reform until you actually are interested in helping.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:45 pmPoor little Pez, comes here thinking he is so clever with his worn out rhetoric, racism and bigotry. Poor little guy can’t even afford the payments on his trailer but he defends the wealthy 1% of the country over his own best interests….phucking brilliant!
February 28th, 2010 at 6:46 pmJTHunt is even using the same links to random guy on the internet’s blog.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:46 pmPezMORON
I am happily married. I dont cheat. I am not interested by your gay fantasies. Have fun. Doesnt bother me. How pathetic and pitiful do you have to be to come to a place with no purpose except to annoy people so much smarter and better than you have any hope of ever being? What kind of pitiful and miserable life do you have to have to find joy in that? We understand you are so stupid and so pathetic no one is EVER going to care about you or respect you. You are pitiful. That is your burden to carry. Everyone who even sees you wants to puke you are so putrid and disgusting. No one wants to be in your presence. This is why you should kill yourself. End your misery. Why prolong the agony YOU feel being such a shitweasel. Why inflict the misery your continued existance brings to decent human beings which you will NEVER be? Just put a bullet through your useless trollskull
February 28th, 2010 at 6:48 pmHere’s ya a clue. youtube is not a resourse. vids can be edited and faked and I don’t even look at them when someone offers them as a source.
FDA just as FEMA, operate differently depending on who runs them.
We have all seen FEMA succeed and we know who was running it when it failed.
Just because it’s not working when republicans run them doesn’t mean they can’t work..
It just means that people who say that government can’t work have gone out of their way to try to prove it.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:49 pmI wonder if the troll writes down all of his different monikers on his hand to remember them when he wants to change names?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:50 pmRE: “Health Insurance Companies are the problem not the cure.”
And guess who gave the HMOs a quasi-monopoly on health insurance and eliminated the market for affordable health care?
Why, the federal govt did, with its HMO Act of 1973. A Ted Kennedy sponsored bill, I believe.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:50 pmdo firefighters, teachers, etc. make a profit?
Some things should not be profit driven. We get to decide what those things are.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:50 pmJT_Lancer:
February 28th, 2010 at 6:51 pmSo tell me the parts of the government that you like….
RE: “Here’s ya a clue. youtube is not a resourse. vids can be edited and faked and I don’t even look at them when someone offers them as a source.”
The link is from a nationally broadcasted show, not some homemade video. It actually has a well balanced discussion on the issue.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:51 pmRE: “So tell me the parts of the government that you like….”
Not many, I must admit.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:52 pmwhere’d the sad lonely friendless child go?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:52 pmJT
You are just pathetic. Ignorant strawman arguments like this only make you look like a fool
So, are you against making a profit for providing a service that consumers need?
Can you show me where I said that? YOU talked about the poor abused insurance corporation making ONLY 3% profit. My arguments had to do with why this statistic is bogus. If you only want to be stupid and dishonest stop wasting our time
February 28th, 2010 at 6:52 pmJT Lancer @ 444, you can thank Nixon for making health care a for profit business.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QkgUkM0o6Q
February 28th, 2010 at 6:53 pmNot many, I must admit.
—
February 28th, 2010 at 6:53 pmThen it shouldn’t be hard to make me a list…
RE: “do firefighters, teachers, etc. make a profit?
Some things should not be profit driven. We get to decide what those things are.”
Uh, no ‘we’ don’t when the govt forces a non-option upon us.
Fred, do you work in the private sector? Or govt sector?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:53 pmI bet he likes a big policeman in uniform.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:54 pmJT_Lancer says:
Not many, I must admit.
Let’s say we could make government look exactly as you would have it. What would that look like?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:54 pmI like the way that Zooey thinks…
February 28th, 2010 at 6:55 pmJT, do you work yet?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:55 pmRE: “Then it shouldn’t be hard to make me a list…”
As a voluntaryist, I prefer peaceful, voluntary exchange between consenting people – whether it be buyer and seller, employer and employee, producer and consumer, etc.
Unfortunately, virtually all government actions are coercive in nature. If I am wrong, perhaps you can tell me a govt policy that uses voluntary means as a way to achieve goals.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:56 pmHealth care
Heating/Energy
Police/Firemen
These are three things that should not be for profit and available to all American citzens.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:57 pmRE: “JT Lancer @ 444, you can thank Nixon for making health care a for profit business.”
Yep. The HMO Act was passed under Nixon and proposed by Ted Kennedy and supported by Dems.
Are you saying that healthcare was non-profit before that?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:57 pmThat’s not a list. Maybe it would be easier for you to handle this the way Zooey has suggested.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:57 pmIf you don’t like coercive, you should HATE the Health Insurance Industry.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:58 pmInsidious Prophet says:
Health care
Heating/Energy
Police/Firemen
These are three things that should not be for profit and available to all American citzens.
I would add education.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:58 pmRE: “These are three things that should not be for profit and available to all American citzens.”
OK. Say that the local police force is corrupt and mismanaged. What should their ‘customers’ do?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:58 pmZooey
Let’s say we could make government look exactly as you would have it. What would that look like?
I can answer that. It would look like the Lord of the Flies
February 28th, 2010 at 6:59 pmI like the national parks and conservation lands. Do you like those JT_Lancer? What about the Smithsonian? I love that place. Oh and those highways are rather convenient…
February 28th, 2010 at 6:59 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT_Lancer says:
As a voluntaryist, I prefer peaceful, voluntary exchange between consenting people – whether it be buyer and seller, employer and employee, producer and consumer, etc.
This is a serious question, JT. How old are you?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:00 pmSay that the local police force is corrupt and mismanaged. What should their ‘customers’ do?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:00 pm–
Tell the state and federal government about it?
You mean like when bush pushed tax cuts for the rich on us and deregulation which crashed ours and the worlds economy? Like that?
Again, the government works when people who want it to work are running it. When republicans are in charge, not so much.
See the irony where your perspective lies?
Ultimately, we do get to decide. We vote. Republicans lied and cheated their way to power and now America has had a good look at where they want to take us. They said no.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:00 pmWhat should they do? Call the FBI and get them arrested. Suppose the for profit police think THey can make a better deal with the drug cartels? THE EXACT SAME THING. You dont even HAVE a point
February 28th, 2010 at 7:01 pmRE: “I like the national parks and conservation lands. Do you like those JT_Lancer? What about the Smithsonian? I love that place. Oh and those highways are rather convenient…”
So, you like the highways? How’s the govt serviced highways in your town? Seems that nearly every medium to big city has daily rush hour traffic jams.
Why is it that the govt service providers of roads have no incentive to provide a better product to its customers? Maybe its because they don’t have to compete for customers, as they know they’ll get paid (via taxation) no matter what.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:01 pmNo JT, that was a typo on my part. It became more about profits than providing health care after 1971.
Now if you want to push Kennedys name out there and take the blame away from Nixon, surely you will than equally blame republican senator Phil Gramm for pushing for the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act while writing and pushing for the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Of 1999 and the Commodity Futures Modernization Act Of 2000….correct?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:02 pmSo, you like the highways? How’s the govt serviced highways in your town?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:03 pm—
No problems here and I never get stuck in traffic. I think they problem you might be having is all the spoiled brats that refuse to carpool or take affordable mass transit.
RE: “What should they do? Call the FBI and get them arrested. Suppose the for profit police think THey can make a better deal with the drug cartels? THE EXACT SAME THING. You dont even HAVE a point”
Sure, I have a point. In the private, VOLUNTARY sector, if a customer is unhappy with the provision of goods and services provided, the customer can patronize a competitor that will provide better service.
In the coercive public sector, the customer has no choice at all. They have to pay for the govt ’service’, no matter how poor or inefficient it may be.
What incentive does govt have to improve services and lower costs?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:04 pmSay that the local police force is corrupt and mismanaged. What should their ‘customers’ do?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:04 pm——————————————————-
I believe there is a thing called a Mayor, a City council, a City attorney and yes the State or Federal government and/or the FBI.
I was thinking more like Somalia with white people.
These “arguments” were lame when drhunt first posted them.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:04 pmJT
I dont know where YOU live but I lived for decades in California and the roads are fabulous. AND I dont have to PAY to get from Barstow to the beach. For profit roads would make the poor stay home. You libertarians are the most gullible and niave people on the planet. Everything you do would benifit ONLY the rich and corporations. Our entire nation would be run ONLY for the powerful if you had your way.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:04 pmZooey:
February 28th, 2010 at 7:05 pmIt seems he doesn’t know. All he does know is that government is bad…
RE: “No problems here and I never get stuck in traffic. I think they problem you might be having is all the spoiled brats that refuse to carpool or take affordable mass transit.”
Funny, in my town, there are rush hour traffic jams every day – morning and night.
And your ’solution’ to the customers not being serviced is that they are spoiled brats? Wow. If you owned your own business, would you really look at your ‘customers’ in that manner?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:05 pmJT Boil Lancer is beginning to remind me of jagman. 1000 questions but no answers. Acting like a fence sitter until he finally exposes himself just like he does in real life to the kids playing at the park.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:06 pmSo you’re dishonest? Why lie? Is it because you feel that you are losing the argument?
From a little place called “Capitalist Magazine”
President Nixon appeased the left and proposed the HMO Act
February 28th, 2010 at 7:06 pmWell JT, for one thing, nothing forces parents to send their children to public school..They have the option of sending their children to a private school or homeschooling them..I know that the tuition at private school makes it impossible for anyone besides the very wealthy to send their children there, but there’s still that choice (many students at Catholic schools tend to be middle or working class students; also many cities have scholarships available to parents who feel that their child would get a better education in a private school, but prove they can’t afford the tuituin, geez even most private schools themselves offer scholarships to children who are qualified to go, but can’t afford the tuition) …Homeschooling is another option that many parents choose to pursue either for religious reasons or because they feel that they could give their child a better education at home..Granted, it can be kind of a pain in the butt for a parent to be allowed to homeschool their child, because they have to prove to the state that their curriculum matches the state’s standards for that age/grade and they might still have to participate in standardized testing (correct me if I’m wrong, please).
February 28th, 2010 at 7:06 pmJT, do you have a problem with revealing your age? I promise we could not find you in the real world using that information, nor would we try.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:07 pmFunny, in my town, there are rush hour traffic jams every day – morning and night.
—
February 28th, 2010 at 7:08 pmDo many folks carpool or take public transit. It is a much more logical solution in urban congested areas.
You know I think it’s really supreme arrogance. You know you’ve got a situation here where it’s absolutely clear the American people don’t support the bill. It’s absolutely clear they don’t support ramming it through using reconciliation. The Republicans showed up at that health care summit and laid out very clearly the concerns about the cost of the bill and the substance of what’s in the bill and yet still the White House says we’re going to push this thing through. Speaker Pelosi this morning was out there saying, ‘Go ahead and vote for this even if it’s going to destroy your career– Which it will because the American people do not support it. So, it’s fascinating as a political exercise but it’s dangerous as an exercise in democracy.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:08 pmRE: “I dont know where YOU live but I lived for decades in California and the roads are fabulous. AND I dont have to PAY to get from Barstow to the beach. For profit roads would make the poor stay home. You libertarians are the most gullible and niave people on the planet. Everything you do would benifit ONLY the rich and corporations. Our entire nation would be run ONLY for the powerful if you had your way.”
California? Worst traffic jams in the country are in L.A.
Does for profit food make the poor starve? There are multitudes of food options in the for-profit market.
Does for-profit cable prevent poor from getting cable TV? Hardly.
Does for-profit cell phones prevent ANYONE from not having a cell phone? Thirty years ago, hardly anyone had them – now everyone does. It didn’t happen because of govt mandate.
And, incidentally, profits should be lauded, not discouraged. A profitable company means that the company is servicing many customers.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:09 pmIn case you haven’t noticed, our nation IS run by the powerful.
JT
Again you show how niave and gullible you are. Do you really think money and profit are the ONLY motives for human beings. That public service means NOTHING to decent humans? No you DONT have a point because public OR private the remedy to corrupt police is EXACTLY THE SAME. Competition OR the free market are NOT dogma given us by GOD. They are good for some things and cause PROBLEMS in other areas. For instance it is BAD for healthcare since it pushes care toward critical care where the profit margin is higher and AWAY from early warning and preventative care where the profit margins are smaller. In policing no citizenry can match the resources of HUGE criminal interprises. You really dont think ANY of this out do you. You just parrot what you have been told to think no matter how dumb it is
February 28th, 2010 at 7:09 pmYou’re dancing while you lose now. What does a city street system have to do with a federal highway system exactly?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:09 pmPez thinks earmarks, subsidies, grants foreign aid are stealing and just began in 2009?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:09 pmMaybe he should live where there is no government and only authority…prison.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:10 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
So JT Boil Lancer is all for privatizing our roads and putting up toll booths? I wonder if he realizes that under the Bush administration this has already been happening and the new owners of these roadways are foreign owned companies. Brilliant!
Just like when Bush wanted to sell the operations and security of our seaports to the foreign company from Dubai, while we were at war with those scary brown skinned men from the Middle East…Brilliant!
February 28th, 2010 at 7:10 pmWell since I freegan most of my food and have absolutely no interest in cable, I suppose I have to recuse myself…
February 28th, 2010 at 7:10 pmmarwick says:
You know I think it’s really supreme arrogance.
Racist code word for “uppity.”
As for the rest of the comment — it’s bullshit.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:10 pmSaying a small teabagging minority represents all of the American people seems pretty arrogant to me.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:11 pmRE: “Maybe he should live where there is no government and only authority…prison.”
No govt in prison? It’s kind of ironic that you would say this, since all govt action is enforced with the implicit threat of fines or imprisonment (in govt jails).
February 28th, 2010 at 7:11 pmSo now JT is claiming it is our governments responsibility for providing transportation services for us? Let me guess you are also one of those pro-lifers whose supports war but is against stem cell research and affordable health care.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:12 pmSwish, caught in your own net. No it doesn’t in America because we have a safety net that covers that.
We are trying to do the same thing with health care.
Do you have any problem with thousands of Americans losing everything they worked their entire lives for over one illness?
It seems you do not.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:12 pmmarwick says:
——————————————————————————–
You know I think it’s really supreme arrogance. You know you’ve got a situation here where it’s absolutely clear the American people don’t support the bill. It’s absolutely clear they don’t support ramming it through using reconciliation. The Republicans showed up at that health care summit and laid out very clearly the concerns about the cost of the bill and the substance of what’s in the bill and yet still the White House says we’re going to push this thing through. Speaker Pelosi this morning was out there saying, ‘Go ahead and vote for this even if it’s going to destroy your career– Which it will because the American people do not support it. So, it’s fascinating as a political exercise but it’s dangerous as an exercise in democracy.
surces please..marwick says:
——————————————————————————–
You know I think it’s really supreme arrogance. You know you’ve got a situation here where it’s absolutely clear the American people don’t support the bill. It’s absolutely clear they don’t support ramming it through using reconciliation. The Republicans showed up at that health care summit and laid out very clearly the concerns about the cost of the bill and the substance of what’s in the bill and yet still the White House says we’re going to push this thing through. Speaker Pelosi this morning was out there saying, ‘Go ahead and vote for this even if it’s going to destroy your career– Which it will because the American people do not support it. So, it’s fascinating as a political exercise but it’s dangerous as an exercise in democracy.
Reputable sources please. And no, FauxSnooze and SludgeReport.com do not count as reputable sources.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:12 pmI think it would be cool if he had the balls to explain how his no government system would operate….
February 28th, 2010 at 7:12 pmmarwick
It was absolutly CLEAR the public supported a public option and healthcare reform. It is absolutly CLEAR that for decades the public has supported universal healthcare even if it meant higher taxes. What is absolutly CLEAR is you are a weasel who doesnt really CARE what the public wants and your arrogance is rivalled only by your stupidity
February 28th, 2010 at 7:13 pmRE: “So JT Boil Lancer is all for privatizing our roads and putting up toll booths? I wonder if he realizes that under the Bush administration this has already been happening and the new owners of these roadways are foreign owned companies. Brilliant!”
What makes you think toll booths are the only way to collect revenue for privatized roads? Not too good at thinking out of the box, are you?
And the scaremongering of ‘foreign owned’ businesses is a canard. If anything, commerce between nations encourages PEACE between them.
I do notice that you didn’t question my claim that govt does a poor job at providing transportation services, though.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:13 pmGovernment jails…..? That are privately owned and use inmates for slave labor…
February 28th, 2010 at 7:14 pmamtrack is the government?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:14 pmRE: “It was absolutly CLEAR the public supported a public option and healthcare reform. It is absolutly CLEAR that for decades the public has supported universal healthcare even if it meant higher taxes. What is absolutly CLEAR is you are a weasel who doesnt really CARE what the public wants and your arrogance is rivalled only by your stupidity”
The mob rules! The PUBLIC also supported the enslavement of blacks in this country for many decades.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:14 pmJT seems frightened of responding to my very simple questions. I wonder why?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:15 pmRE: “amtrack is the government?”
Yep. And this govt agency has lost money EVERY YEAR since it nationalized passenger rail service in the US in 1971.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:15 pmPrivatization is just a way to get you to pay for what you already paid for.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:16 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Only because the govt has done a PISS POOR job at providing transportation services to its customers!
I don’t know what planet you live on but where I live, the public mass transit is actually very good (I take a bus every day to get myself to my classes at community college). It’s affordable and definately beats driving.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:16 pmSo you admit you don’t love democracy?
regressives had slaves. We progressed beyond it and after a bitter war with them.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:17 pmHi Teague1985:
February 28th, 2010 at 7:17 pmCan I get a manicure set and two of those NHL Jersey Women for my buddy Jt?
And the scaremongering of ‘foreign owned’ businesses is a canard. If anything, commerce between nations encourages PEACE between them.
————————————————————–
Than why isn’t there commerce with North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela.
Kind of funny so many on the right pee in their pants over communism yet they don’t care that we do business with communist China but refuse to with Cuba.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:17 pmif the govt is losing money then someone is making a profit
February 28th, 2010 at 7:18 pmJT
Yes traffic jams IF you are going in or out of LA during work traffic otherwise NOTHING and the ROADS are in great shape which is what we were talking about.
Yes but the food supply is only SAFE since gov regulations
Cable is HEAVILY regulated.
Phones ONLY happened at ALL because of government subsidies ITT was a monopoly gauranteed by LAW a profit so their research was TAXPAYER SUPPORTED. We wouldnt even HAVE cell phones except for the taxpayer subsidies for government research through the military
AGAIN stop with your IGNORANT strawman arguments. If you just want to be stupid and dishonest stop wasting our time. I never said profits were bad. I said the profit motive is great for some things and counterproductive for others. It is NOT dogma given us by GOD.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:18 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Oops JT. Sorry about that JT-Lancer…
February 28th, 2010 at 7:18 pmOops again JT_Lancer…
February 28th, 2010 at 7:18 pmComment 510 flagged for spam.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:19 pmI call bullshit. Prove it. Subsidies maybe but I think you’re just pulling crap out of your anus agian.
You’ve been caught doing it twice on this thread.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:20 pmThe Senate is broken and is now an impediment to effective government. Lamar Alexander is a good example of why.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:20 pmWhy are they always small business owners? So JT_lancer what does this little business of yours offer? Oh nevermind, I’d rather how your system of nongovernment is going to be structured…
February 28th, 2010 at 7:20 pmJT_Lancer says:
——————————————————————————–
RE: “It was absolutly CLEAR the public supported a public option and healthcare reform. It is absolutly CLEAR that for decades the public has supported universal healthcare even if it meant higher taxes. What is absolutly CLEAR is you are a weasel who doesnt really CARE what the public wants and your arrogance is rivalled only by your stupidity”
The mob rules! The PUBLIC also supported the enslavement of blacks in this country for many decades.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Signed , a religious tool who is okay with banning gay marriage based upon a simple majority vote …………
February 28th, 2010 at 7:20 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
JT_Lancer says:
I am 43. And I am an evil, greedy business owner. Maybe ‘less’ greedy, in the eyes of some, since I am still a small business owner.
Perhaps Zooey will now reveal whether or not he or she works in the private sector? Or the govt sector?
Hmmmm, at 43 I would have thought you’d have more real-world life experience. Oh well, not everyone is in tune with their surroundings.
I have worked in the private sector, the government sector, and am currently not working because I’m a student.
Does this information reveal something sinister about me? Am I going to have a good week?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:21 pmJT
And it you sick libertarians had your way you would bring slavery BACK to increase profits. What exactly do you WANT? Fascist rule? No input from the WE THE PEOPLE to policy? Did you think you even HAD a point? I was refuting Marwick pretending that the people didnt want healthcare reform
February 28th, 2010 at 7:22 pmAm I going to have a good week?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:22 pm—
All signs point to yes….
It’s Sunday night — the pez troll has come to feed — just dismiss him with a vote down, report his abuse because he only offers ad hominem attacks and derails the thread.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:22 pmHe isn’t worthy of a comment – he is willfully belligerent, has nothing to offer and will find himself banned soon.
RE: “Yes traffic jams IF you are going in or out of LA during work traffic otherwise NOTHING and the ROADS are in great shape which is what we were talking about.”
So, work traffic doesn’t count?!?
“Yes but the food supply is only SAFE since gov regulations”
So, before govt regs, food companies wanted to poison their customers?
“Cable is HEAVILY regulated.”
Maybe that’s why we have so few choices.
“Phones ONLY happened at ALL because of government subsidies ITT was a monopoly gauranteed by LAW a profit so their research was TAXPAYER SUPPORTED. We wouldnt even HAVE cell phones except for the taxpayer subsidies for government research through the military”
So, w/o govt subsidies, there would be no phones or cell phones? Please.
AT&T was a govt sanctioned monopoly for 70 years. Thanks to the heroic Carter Phone Company making a phone other than black, and suing to break the government imposed monopoly, the communications industry has been making spectacular progress after begin stifled for three-quarters of a century.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:22 pmJT_Lancer says:
February 28th, 2010 at 7:24 pmFunny, in my town, there are rush hour traffic jams every day – morning and night.
——————————————————-
Really? Every day, morning and night? Even on Christmas and Thanksgiving when most Americans don’t have to work?
Care to find a non-editorial to back up your talking points/lies?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:24 pmmarwick
February 28th, 2010 at 7:25 pmWhat percentage of the population thinks Iraq was behind 911?
Then why are there so many area’s in our contry where you can’t get high speed internet?
Why does a phone that used to cost 6 dollars a month now cost 50 when wages have not kept up?
I have quesions too. You never seem to be man enought to do more than dust our questions off an move on.
I’m done with ya, You’re a poser.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:28 pmI wonder what percentage of the population thinks that clown SamJoe represents “average”?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:28 pmWhen asked about the separate provisions of the bill the American people support them wholeheartedly. What they don’t support is this caricature of the bill which advanced by loud and paranoid opponents of health care and big money interests. Also, there’s another subset of Americans who don’t support the bill because it doesn’t go far enough but I’ll be a cold day in hell (if there’s such a place) before they vote for a republicans.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:28 pmRE: “And it you sick libertarians had your way you would bring slavery BACK to increase profits. What exactly do you WANT? Fascist rule? No input from the WE THE PEOPLE to policy? Did you think you even HAD a point? I was refuting Marwick pretending that the people didnt want healthcare reform”
This rambling mumbo jumbo is beyond irrational, to say the least. But I’ll break it down.
Libertarians generally believe in the non-aggression principle – that the use of force against peaceful people is unjustified and immoral. Thus abolitionist views were libertarian. It was democratic rule (that you support) that allowed slavery to exist.
And Democrats and Republicans are far closer to fascism that Libertarians.
“Fascism is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives; values; and systems such as the political system and the economy. Scholars generally consider it to be on the far right of the conventional left-right political spectrum, although some scholars claim that fascism has been influenced by both the left and the right.”
The taxpayer-funded govt bailouts of corporations, as well as the military industrial complex, were and are supported by both parties. Who are the fascists here?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:28 pmdbadass says:
——————————————————————————–
marwick
What percentage of the population thinks Iraq was behind 911?
Probably the same 20% who are still screaming about “Death Panels” and who also think that Sarah Palin would be a serious candidate for president.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:28 pmdbadass says:
marwick
February 28th, 2010 at 7:30 pmWhat percentage of the population thinks Iraq was behind 911?
————————————————————
How many viewers does Faux Noise have?
jt, you want to see libertarians in action. Go to Somolia.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:30 pmJT_Lancer: Are you going to tell me how your system of nongovernment is going to work or aren’t you? Shit if you sell yous mall good or service this poorly, you like most small business will crap out in no time…
February 28th, 2010 at 7:31 pmRE: “Then why are there so many area’s in our contry where you can’t get high speed internet?”
Expense exceeds profits at this time. However, everyone has at least dial-up. And Wi-Fi access is growing dramatically. What govt regs aided that?
“Why does a phone that used to cost 6 dollars a month now cost 50 when wages have not kept up?”
When did a phone cost $6 a month? Are you referring to inflation? Keep in mind that all inflation is a monetary phenomenon (created by govt printing of fiat dollars).
“I have quesions too. You never seem to be man enought to do more than dust our questions off an move on.”
Have I adequately answered your questions?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:31 pmAlso, the op-ed says a republican pollster did they poll.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:32 pmthe problem libertarians have is that their total meme is less government.
Less and less government leads inevitably to chaos.
Government is necessary and can work correctly. It’s only when people who don’t want it to word start running it that it fails.
Irony?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:33 pmHave I adequately answered your questions?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 7:33 pmNo. I wanna know how your fantasy nongovernment silly ass libertarian fantasy world is going to work. Thanks-
Marwick
My condolances on you being too stupid to READ. They werent talking points they are just REALITY. I know how you HATE factual reality I claimed that people supported universal healthcare even IF it meant higher taxes
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/06/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4923731.shtml
AND that people supported the public option.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/19/AR2009101902451.htmlOn the issue that has been perhaps the most pronounced flash point in the national debate, 57 percent of all Americans now favor a public insurance option, while 40 percent oppose it. Support has risen since mid-August, when a bare majority, 52 percent, said they favored it. (In a June Post-ABC poll, support was 62 percent.)
If a public plan were run by the states and available only to those who lack affordable private options, support for it jumps to 76 percent. Under those circumstances, even a majority of Republicans, 56 percent, would be in favor of it, about double their level of support without such a limitation.
The fact YOU are a brainwashed moron really isnt MY problem
February 28th, 2010 at 7:33 pmDidn’t Bush say he was going to run the government like a business and that he was the CEO of the government?
That kinda sounds like the admittance of fascism to me.
Of course had republicans not fallen for the phony cowboy act and fake southern drawl and researched the many Bush business failures, they would have thought twice about voting for the man who obviously used Enron as the business model for running our government like a business.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:34 pmInsidious Prophet says:
——————————————————————————–
dbadass says:
marwick
What percentage of the population thinks Iraq was behind 911?
————————————————————
How many viewers does Faux Noise have?
/snark..
February 28th, 2010 at 7:34 pm70 gazillion!!..The supreme leader Glenn Beck said so.
So JT_Lancer, you claim to be a libertarian right?
So than you would be all for cutting the defense budget, closing down our overseas military bases, and changing our foreign policy (Imperialism) and empire building, correct?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:36 pmNot even close to honesty honey.
government will bring high speed to us when the private sector held us hostage. The advances you are seeing now are because of the government, not companies.
inflation is relevant when costs exceed it. Grow up, I thought you said you were a businessman. I’m doubting that for real.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:36 pm#543 Nat says:
Also, the op-ed says a republican pollster did they poll.
That just means the poll results have more credibility.
I don’t even know why anyone is discussing this. Health care reform is dead except for those politicians on a November 2010 suicide mission.
Do they want to end their political careers or go out and do some steak-dinner fundraisers? We all know the answer.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:36 pmWow, dealing with these very ignorant trolls can be tiring.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:37 pmInsidious Prophet says:
——————————————————————————–
So JT_Lancer, you claim to be a libertarian right?
So than you would be all for cutting the defense budget, closing down our overseas military bases, and changing our foreign policy (Imperialism) and empire building, correct?
Of course not…He’s a republican who was embarrassed by the failure of Bush and now he calls himself a “liberterian”. BS!
February 28th, 2010 at 7:37 pmThat just means the poll results have more credibility.
—
February 28th, 2010 at 7:38 pmHow so?
Yeah, you’ve never been wrong before:
wmd’s
tax cuts for the rich will usher in a new era of prosperity.
permanent republican majority.
The polls you should be looking at are the ones that say that 80% of Americans want healthcare reform.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:39 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
RE: “jt, you want to see libertarians in action. Go to Somolia.”
Ah, the old Somalia comparison. Just ignore that decades of govt strife and conflict made the nation poor to begin with. British colonialism after WW2, arbitrary partitioning of the nation by the Imperial powers, military coups, Marxist rule and repression in the 70’s to mid- 80’s, civil war in the 90’s.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:39 pmmarwick, you need to put down the crack pipe.
1-A republican poll is more credible? HA-HA-HA-HA! You must be a comedian.
2-Health care reform is dead? Aren’t you in for a big surprise!
February 28th, 2010 at 7:39 pm#546 Eugene Debs
Boy, what year were those polls you linked to taken in? 1843?
Once Main Street actually took a look at the details of the health care plans, the majority of folks said HELL NO.
Take those old newspapers to the recycling bin. Try sorting your Google search results by the most recent date.
I’m just trying to help. I feel so sad for kids like yourself who haven’t had the opportunity for a good education. I know you’re doing the best you can, and I appreciate the effort. But please come to the table with something more current.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:41 pmmarwick says:
——————————————————————————–
#543 Nat says:
Also, the op-ed says a republican pollster did they poll.
That just means the poll results have more credibility.
I don’t even know why anyone is discussing this. Health care reform is dead except for those politicians on a November 2010 suicide mission.
Do they want to end their political careers or go out and do some steak-dinner fundraisers? We all know the answer.
No having the polling done by a right-leaning pollster does not lend the poll more credibility it just means that the poll is slanted to favor the right..Healthcare reform is not dead, unless you spend your time on Planet Wingnuttia..
February 28th, 2010 at 7:41 pmOh sweet Jeebus ( sorry Zooey..), your’e dense!
Ah, the old Somalia comparison.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:42 pm—
Wouldn’t it be easier if you just told us your vision for a nongovernment? Is that too difficult? I mean you obviously feel strongly about this and must have thought extensively about it or do you just piss and moan about regulation and nothing deeper?
RE: “government will bring high speed to us when the private sector held us hostage. The advances you are seeing now are because of the government, not companies.”
How are you ‘held hostage’ by private companies? Do you live in a rural area? Perhaps the costs to implement high speed exceed any perceived profits. Do you think you’re ‘entitled’ to high speed Internet? Wow. In some places, people just want food on their plates and a place to rest their head.
“inflation is relevant when costs exceed it.”
The purchasing power of the dollar has diminished by 95% in the last 100 years. How is that irrelevant?
“Grow up, I thought you said you were a businessman. I’m doubting that for real.”
Believe what you want. Yet, you haven’t answered my question. Do you work in the private sector? Or govt sector? Or do you even work?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:42 pmJT
My GOD you are stupid. Your strawman arguments are becoming tiresome. I dont care what they WANTED to do. The proof has already been shown you that is what they DID DO. My GOD what more do you need. It happened. It continued to happen. Gov regulation made it RARE.
Let me break it down even though the stupidity of your posts has my braincells screaming for the sweet release of a coma
Yes I support majority rule, not absolutly but overall are you saying you DONT? What do you want a dictator or rule by the rich?
No Libertarian rule is closer to fascism because it is basically a corporate/gov rule by fiat.
There would be SOME phones. In rich homes and in cities. The only reason rural counties have ELECTRICITY is because of rural electrification a gov program. Private industry would NEVER have coughed up the infrastructure costs for bringing them to rural areas and of COURSE we wouldnt have cell phones they are based on SATELITE TECHNOLOGY WHOLLY FUNDED BY THE MILITARY. Are you REALLY this obtuse?
The communication industry has been making great strides the R&D of which was almost ENTIRELY taxpayer supported. Mostly through the Pentagon. It isnt my fault you have both no idea how things work or what you are talking about
February 28th, 2010 at 7:42 pmYou can dance all you want. Somolia is what will happen if libertarian ideals are implemented.
We as a country experienced all the maladies you say Somolia faced and we rejected a no government attitude. We thrived.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:43 pmmarwick says:
——————————————————————————–
#502 Eugene Debs
Lets look at the real data over your talking points/lies:
By 52 percent to 40 percent, the voters he surveyed oppose the health-care bills the administration and congressional Democrats developed, with more than twice as many strongly opposed as are strongly supportive.
By a similar margin, 54 percent to 42 percent, they support the Republican argument for starting over and focusing on smaller pieces of legislation embodying areas of bipartisan agreement, rather than merging the more comprehensive reform bills passed by the House and Senate and sending a measure to the president soon.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
As if it wasn’t bad enough that you chose an OP/ED piece by the tool , David Broder , the piece of shit link you posted contained a poll taken by a GOP suckhole ; typical ……
February 28th, 2010 at 7:43 pmHmmm JT_Lancer now you have me curious.
So you agree that the US Government under Eisenhower through the CIA was wrong in overthrowing the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in 1953?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:43 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
troll alert
see ya troll.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:44 pmJT
And the internet was ENTIRELY created by taxpayer dollars through the gov. It CAME from the military ARPANET.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:45 pmRE: “Wouldn’t it be easier if you just told us your vision for a nongovernment? Is that too difficult? I mean you obviously feel strongly about this and must have thought extensively about it or do you just piss and moan about regulation and nothing deeper?”
Why? Because you can’t debate the points that I made about govt services being poor and substandard because they have no incentive to satisfy the needs of consumers?
Let’s look at countries where govt has dictatorship or full control of the economy – North Korea, Cuba, half the countries in Africa. How’s that worked out for them? Aside from rampant poverty and dictatorial oppression?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:46 pmNo, they wanted public option by 80%. It wasn’t till republicans started stripping things from it that it lost popularity.
Bottom line, the party that fights this will lose. This is not a problem that is going away. It’s getting worse every day.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:46 pmHmmm JT_Lancer @ 557 now you have me curious.
So you agree that the US Government under Eisenhower through the CIA was wrong in overthrowing the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in 1953?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:47 pmmarwick says:
——————————————————————————–
#555 Fred The polls you should be looking at are the ones that say that 80% of Americans want healthcare reform.
Just not the ones currently on the table. Those are opposed by over 50% of Americans. As I linked to, the majority want to start over and come up with a bipartisan plan that won’t bust the budget any more than Obama, Pelosi and Reid already have.
1.Define majority..
February 28th, 2010 at 7:47 pm2). Yes, people don’t like the bill being debated right now, mostly because it so far doesn’t have the public option..If 27 more Dems get some spine and vote for the puplic option via reconcilliation, this the number of supporters will increase!
try to take a teabaggers social security from him honey.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:48 pmMarwick
Those polls are on point about THOSE ISSUES. It was THOSE issues I was talking about not this weak overcompromised healthcare bill. Go to PEW and go back DECADES and the American people have supported univeral healthcare even IF it meant higher taxes. Sorry about you being so stupid.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:48 pmYet, you haven’t answered my question. Do you work in the private sector? Or govt sector? Or do you even work?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:48 pm—
You didn’t ask me but one of my jobs is in the private sector and the other is in the govt sector. Now can you tell me how your system of nongovernment will be structures and administered? Thanks of so much. Shit I might even consider buying some of whatever it is you sell that I don’t need…
RE: “And the internet was ENTIRELY created by taxpayer dollars through the gov. It CAME from the military ARPANET.”
And the Internet is where it is today because of the private sector. Any idea how many companies have produced the goods and services needed to get you online? Computers, fans, circuit boards, power supplies, routers, cabling system, etc.
How about the millions of websites. Lots of great private enterprise that went into its development.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:49 pmWhy would that mean the poll is more credible? I would think the numbers were reversed.
Politicians just need to be most forceful when defending the bill. As I stated earlier the American people are behind the separate provisions of the bill. Also, making sure that every American has access to the health care system when he or she needs it is a noble cause.
Sometimes doing the right thing yields consequences. When LBJ went forward with Civil Rights legislation he knew the Democrats would begin losing the South to republicans but it was the right thing to do.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:49 pmWhat points? You claim that their is a better solution, then refuse to say what it is, drhunt.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:49 pmIt seems to me that most libertarians these days are republicans who are too embarrassed to admit that they voted twice for Bush.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:50 pmInsidious
And Guatemala in 54 overthrowing Arbenz and the Dominican Republic in 64 which took an actual invasion to keep Juan Bosch the freely elected president OUT of power. And Goulart in Brazil in 64 and Allende in Chile in 73… And so it goes
February 28th, 2010 at 7:51 pmJT_Lancer @ 557 now you have me curious.
So you agree that the US Government under Eisenhower through the CIA was wrong in overthrowing the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in 1953??
February 28th, 2010 at 7:51 pmRE: “You didn’t ask me but one of my jobs is in the private sector and the other is in the govt sector.”
Is your private sector job an evil for-profit company?
“Now can you tell me how your system of nongovernment will be structures and administered? Thanks of so much. Shit I might even consider buying some of whatever it is you sell that I don’t need…”
That would be a pretty comprehensive discussion. I’d be happy to provide links to any discussions on a voluntary society if you were really interested. But forgive me if I am skeptical, but I doubt you are really interested.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:52 pmWhy? Because you can’t debate the points that I made about govt services being poor and substandard because they have no incentive to satisfy the needs of consumers?
—
I am more than happy with the government services I enjoy. In fact I have been b itching that the government raise my taxes I enjoy them so. I sure do dig those national parks in particular. See the real reason I think you won’t explain your fantasy libertarian utopia is because you are smart enough to realize that it is absurd from the get go…
So what shit that I want nor need not does your little mom and pop offer the consumer? Can you atleast answer that?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:52 pmEugene Debs @ 581
February 28th, 2010 at 7:53 pm————————————————–
Don’t forget El Salvador, Honduras, The Congo, Indonesia…all at the behest of corporate interests.
#575 Eugene Debs
Sorry, you’re just not paying attention. I don’t think repeating the facts will do any good. You clearly don’t understand what Americans are currently saying.
You’ll probably be completely shocked at the November 2010 election results. It’s going to be a complete wreck for the Democrats. I think those in office see it, which is why they’re backing away from an extremely unpopular health care reform plan and President Obama.
President Obama’s poll numbers are dropping like a stone. Everyone who predicted he’d be the next Jimmy Carter are looking like geniuses at this point.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:53 pmRE: “You didn’t ask me but one of my jobs is in the private sector and the other is in the govt sector.” Jigolo
February 28th, 2010 at 7:53 pmI see JT is being a coward and refusing to answer my question because he is just posing as a libertarian.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:54 pm…go IP go!
Speaking of tiring…just went through all the comments and got rid of a lot of troll posts but, if anyone needs a break, there are still some that only need one or two more votes.
Gotta walk the dog or I would stay to hear the SQUAWKING!
February 28th, 2010 at 7:55 pm=============================================
I’m not sure anyone in America wants the government to have full control over the economy. Also, Why no mention of China in your post?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:55 pmRE: “try to take a teabaggers social security from him honey.”
I’d happily give up ALL future benefits from Social Security today if the govt would allow me to opt out of the program. Alas, they won’t, will they? Because its a program based upon coercion.
Imagine if the company you worked for FORCED you to pay into a retirement program. Then, the company spent that money for general operations. A private sector business would be indicted for doing this, but this is how the SS program works.
You do realize, I hope, that the SS program is a Ponzi scheme that’s 200 times bigger than Bernie Madoff’s ripoff.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:55 pmPrivate computers wouldnt EXIST except the goverment subsidized them through the military until they were commercially viable. We wouldnt HAVE circuit boards except for the subsidy to Bell Labs which created the silicon chip. The internet would not EXIST for private enterprise to make money off of except for government, that is taxpayer, investment. Face it. Shove your head in the sand all you want. A large portion of our free enterprise is ACTUALLY public cost to private profit
February 28th, 2010 at 7:55 pmIs your private sector job an evil for-profit company?
—
No it is more of a bunch of former burn out ski bums doing the best they can on behave of others. I wouldn’t work for evil uncaring selfish people motivated by less regulation in the interest of increased profit.
So why is it you can’t speak for yourself and your libertarian utopia. I am a freegan but I hardly think everyone is going to be…
February 28th, 2010 at 7:56 pmRE: “I’m not sure anyone in America wants the government to have full control over the economy. Also, Why no mention of China in your post?”
Because China has allowed free market reforms to occur (private business ownership, private property rights, etc.), even though many of their policies are still quite oppressive.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:56 pmRE: “No it is more of a bunch of former burn out ski bums doing the best they can on behave of others. I wouldn’t work for evil uncaring selfish people motivated by less regulation in the interest of increased profit.”
So, would you rather do business with companies that are losing money? Grocers, restaurants, convenience stores, etc.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:57 pmDon’t you fret none mardick, Obama will be reelected in 2012. Because:
1-The republicans don’t have any decent candidates.
2-America knows who caused the near collapse of our economy
3-Half of the independent vote will be split between Obama and the republican candidate while the other half of independent voters will most likely not even vote.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:57 pmMarwick
No you are just too stupid to understand simple factual reality. Whatever they think of this over compromised bill they SUPPORT universal healthcare AND reform AND a public option. Sucks to be YOU and not understand simple English
February 28th, 2010 at 7:58 pmJT_Lancer/jagman = EPIC FAIL!
February 28th, 2010 at 7:59 pmRE: “So you agree that the US Government under Eisenhower through the CIA was wrong in overthrowing the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in 1953??”
Absolutely they were wrong. You are correct. It was done in the interest of British Petroleum, since Mossadegh nationalized their oil industry.
Thanks for presenting another great destructive government action.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:59 pm#578 Nat
I can see your answers are better thought out than some of your piers. I don’t agree with them, but at least you make your points well.
One of my major concerns is one that the CBO brings up, and that’s total costs of HCR. For those of you who pay monthly premiums, your premiums are going up. (Even Paul Krugman acknowledged that today). Since 30+ million would have health care under HCR, the combination of your increased premiums, your higher taxes, and deficit spending would be needed to cover the additional patients.
We’re also nearing the time when we’ll be asked to pay more for Social Security (and/or work longer), pay more for Medicare, and pay more to try to reduce the national debt.
This is happening as wages are going down and unemployment is rising.
While you say that doing important things are noble, are these these actually doable in the first place without destroying the underlying economic system?
February 28th, 2010 at 7:59 pmMarwick, your link was a David Broder opinion column referring to a Republican-only pollster. If you cannot do better than that, then it means you are wrong.
Research 2000 poll Feb 9-10 2010, of Virginia voters (more conservative than average):
February 28th, 2010 at 7:59 pmFavor public option: 61%
Oppose public option: 32%
They only reason Lamar can get away with a lie this big is simple, people who vote for republicans are basically STUPID!!!! He knows they won’t check the facts therefore he and his fellow republicans can come on the TV and lie at will.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:00 pmSo, would you rather do business with companies that are losing money? Grocers, restaurants, convenience stores, etc.
—
February 28th, 2010 at 8:00 pmI would rather do business with the companies with the best social and environmental philosphies. I am not overly concerned about money. So what was it again that little business of yours offers?
================================================
The government took the initiative and created the Internet because they saw the benefits of it. They private sector would have never taken that risk. If we left it up to them we would be without the Internet today or China would have created it.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:01 pmYou don’t know the difference between a pier and a peer?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:01 pmHEY …JTParrot…seems you have missed this question:
Insidious Prophet says:
Lancer @ 557 now you have me curious.
So you agree that the US Government under Eisenhower through the CIA was wrong in overthrowing the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in 1953??
Why don’t you SQUAWK out an answer?
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED and WMDs too!
February 28th, 2010 at 8:01 pmRE: “I would rather do business with the companies with the best social and environmental philosphies. I am not overly concerned about money.”
Incidentally, profits are a healthy sign that companies are servicing many customers.
Besides, I assume that you work for profit. I don’t know many who work for a subsistence living. Its nothing to be ashamed of.
“So what was it again that little business of yours offers?”
Property damage restoration services. I am also majority owner of a self storage business.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:02 pmdbadass
I hear you. I NEVER go to Walmart under ANY circumstances. I support local and union businesses and I dont CARE if they cost more.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:03 pmEnd the senate? None too soon I might say
February 28th, 2010 at 8:03 pmRE: “HEY …JTParrot…seems you have missed this question:
Insidious Prophet says:
Lancer @ 557 now you have me curious.
So you agree that the US Government under Eisenhower through the CIA was wrong in overthrowing the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in 1953??
Why don’t you SQUAWK out an answer?”
Seems that you missed my reply. Yes, I agree that the CIA’s overthrow of Mossadegh in 1953 was wrong, as well as their installation of the Shah of Iran’s oppressive regime.
Thanks for pointing out yet another failed govt policy.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:04 pmSee I told you I had no need for either of those.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:04 pmWow, that’s the most extreme I’ve ever heard it put. Health care will be the end of the senate? Now I’m starting to think he’s trying to sell me on the idea.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:04 pmRE: “I hear you. I NEVER go to Walmart under ANY circumstances. I support local and union businesses and I dont CARE if they cost more.”
Good for you! That is your choice. I hardly ever shop at WalMart either. But their low prices do allow low income families to stretch their dollars.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:05 pm“Property damage restoration services. I am also majority owner of a self storage business.”
February 28th, 2010 at 8:06 pmSounds like quite the racket.
You must love disasters.
marwick @600,
February 28th, 2010 at 8:06 pmUnder single-payer, the 47 million are covered (paid for) by the extreme improvement in the efficiency of the administration—a gain of about $300 billion each and every year!
So JT_Lancer:
February 28th, 2010 at 8:07 pmI assume in your fantasy world, The armed services would be privately owned and as a consumer I would either hire them to defend the nation or shop around for a more profitable fighting force since of the many fighting forces that will be out there vying for the customers attentions the one with the most money will definately be the best one. Is that how this whole goofy thing of yours will work?
I say bullsht, the dems should use reconciliation.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:07 pmPresident Obama and the dems are trying to do the right thing for the American people. What do the repugs do? They say no and obstruct every damn thing that the dems try to do.
I think the most fcked up thing about it is the idiots who vote for the repugs. They are the same idiots who watch beck and listen to limpass. I watch the news like most people here.
When they show teabaggers I get angry, but then I feel sorry for these people. They listen to talkingheads who make 20 million dollars a year and these talkingheads could give two shts about their listeners.
Obama is trying to make things a little better for the average American, but these teabaggers dont even realize it, either that or they are just blinded by their racism.
Pez is just thrilled the govt loses his money!
February 28th, 2010 at 8:08 pmIP…just checking, if JTParrot answered your question?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:08 pmNow if I was opposed to said defense of the nation I could of course opt out and if my neighbors wanna go dick around in some other nations they could just pick up the bill for the mercenaries… I think JT_Lancer’s vision will be amusing as all hell….
February 28th, 2010 at 8:08 pmJT
True. At the cost of local businesses. Do you remember knife shops? When is the last time you saw one? Downtown small and medium cities used to have local hardware stores, electronics stores, clothing stores. ALL of which close up when Wallmart comes. A small town will lose its entire downtown to a Wallmart. Hardware stores used to be familiy generational businesses. They had knowledge that would help you beyond what you needed. At Wallmart you are lucky if they know WHERE the product is much less how to install it or IF it is what is needed. They DO help the poor. Few things in life are all good or all bad. They HURT local economies a BUNCH.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:09 pmThat’s a complete lie. The government will be subsidizing most Americans to some extent so cost will go down for most of us. Also, taxes will be raised on the wealthy just as Obama said while he was campaigning.
This should have been done a long time ago. The government has been subsidizing the group of Americans who use the health care system the most and the Medicare rate has remained pretty low. Also, again, they’re looking to focus on the wealthy.
Why not?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:10 pm#594 JT_Lancer
Actually, China is more of a militaristic dictatorship that allows free markets. Their country was poor under socialism/communism, and they have allowed the free markets and profits to be made without penalizing businesses and workers with confiscatory taxes.
The tax rates in China are similar to US tax rates.
http://www.worldwide-tax.com/china/china_tax.asp
Notice how they do tax the poor, while the poor in the US are exempt from taxes.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:10 pmRE: “Sounds like quite the racket. You must love disasters.”
If you had a water damage incident (busted pipe, water heater burst) happen in your property, are you going to do nothing? Or call someone that can help you?
Not sure what is evil about providers of goods and services providing a service to those in need.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:12 pmThanks for pointing out yet another failed govt policy.
—-
February 28th, 2010 at 8:12 pmLike that Apollo program….
JT_Lancer says:
RE: “try to take a teabaggers social security from him honey.”
I’d happily give up ALL future benefits from Social Security today if the govt would allow me to opt out of the program. Alas, they won’t, will they? Because its a program based upon coercion.
You are totally full of shit I am 73 years old and have never collected a cent of SS
February 28th, 2010 at 8:13 pmRE: “Actually, China is more of a militaristic dictatorship that allows free markets. Their country was poor under socialism/communism, and they have allowed the free markets and profits to be made without penalizing businesses and workers with confiscatory taxes.”
That’s a pretty good description. Singapore is a country that flourished under little or no economic regulation. Though, they, too, have strict laws on personal behavior.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:13 pmdbadass
Or rural electrification, or the highway system, or the internet, or the military, or the CDC, the FBI…
February 28th, 2010 at 8:13 pmIf you had a water damage incident (busted pipe, water heater burst) happen in your property, are you going to do nothing? Or call someone that can help you?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 8:14 pmSure my neighbor. They would all happily help out for free since they know beyond I doubt that I will do the same in their time of need.
We should be looking to raise their wages and that’s what unions afforded low income Americans and that’s how we built the middle class.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:14 pmI do not pay into SS
February 28th, 2010 at 8:14 pmRE: “Like that Apollo program….”
I believe in privatization of the space program. Surprise! Let private investors risk their money instead of forcing taxpayers to pay for it.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:15 pm#622 Nat
The government will be subsidizing most Americans to some extent so cost will go down for most of us.
Depends on where you think the government gets its money. I say, the government gets its money from taxes, fees, and borrowing. If that’s true, than anything the government subsidizes will come from those who participate in paying taxes, fees, and interest on the national debt.
Also, taxes will be raised on the wealthy just as Obama said while he was campaigning.
He recently said that all options on taxes are on the table. Even taxing those making less than $200K.
Your last comment of “why not” shows a complete lack of understanding of basic economics. Because there isn’t enough money in the world to do all you want.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:15 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
WalMart hands out instructions to new hirees on applying for foodstamps and child support. It knows that their pay is so low that they will qualify for these programs.
The five members of the Walton family are worth about $100 BILLION!!!
February 28th, 2010 at 8:16 pmI believe in privatization of the space program
February 28th, 2010 at 8:16 pm—
So was the Apollo project another failed government policy or wasn’t it?
RE: “The five members of the Walton family are worth about $100 BILLION!!!”
Hooray for them. They have been successful at providing goods and services to millions of Americans, and these Americans benefit as a result.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:17 pmA privitized space program would NEVER have gone to the moon and one of Mans greatest achievements NEVER would have happened. Thats a libertarian for you.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:17 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
and these Americans benefit as a result
February 28th, 2010 at 8:19 pm–
Yeah I love me some cheap lead filled crap…See I have never equated having stuff with benefitting. I benefit from clean air, water, and open spaces…
Because China has allowed free market reforms to occur (private business ownership, private property rights, etc.), even though many of their policies are still quite oppressive.
-JT_Lancer
==================================================
So we should be more like China then?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:19 pmRE: Eugene Debs – “I do not pay into SS.”
Well, I don’t know your situation, but I, like many Americans, am forced to. No choice.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:20 pmRE: “So we should be more like China then?”
No. I am not a fan of authoritarianism.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:20 pmJT
That was a plainly STUPID comment. The government RAN it and bought their parts from private contractors the private sector was in NO WAY excluded. You post the dumbest comments. Back away from the koolaid slingblade it is rotting your brain
February 28th, 2010 at 8:20 pmSo does you business hire undocumented workers and if not why not?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:21 pmRE: “Yeah I love me some cheap lead filled crap…See I have never equated having stuff with benefitting. I benefit from clean air, water, and open spaces…”
That’s your choice, but its not necessarily the choice of others. Like it or not, consumers made WalMart possible. They wanted low prices, and that’s why the company succeeded.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:22 pmJT
Based on the CLEAR FACT there was no PROFIT in going to the moon. The investment was stratospheric and there was no foreseeable profit to come from it. What kind of bizarre delusion could possibly lead you to think otherwise?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:22 pmThen, perhaps ‘we’ can risk our own capital and start a business to offer these people better wages.
-JT_Lancer
============================================================
Or we can start supporting unions again. That’s the best way to bring low income Americans into the middle class.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:22 pmRE: “So does you business hire undocumented workers and if not why not?”
I believe I should be free to hire whom I choose. However, the threat of govt force dictates who I can or cannot hire.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:23 pmYou realise this same rationalisation of poor behaviour could also apply to child pornography and other adventures in unregulated free enterprise, right?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:24 pmRE: “Or we can start supporting unions again. That’s the best way to bring low income Americans into the middle class.”
If unions are so great for Americans, why has the American consumer rejected them? After all, less than 8% of private sector employees are unionized.
Its only in the non-competitive govt sector where unionization is significant.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:24 pmSo you would in fact hire undocumented workers if it were not for government regulations?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:25 pmJT
Yes it is a SOCIETAL obligation. They paid for those who came before them YOU pay for them. Those who come after will pay for you. It is an obligation OWED to those who built this country. I know selfish greedy, Mammon worshippers HATE the idea of a shared obligation. Any idea of the FACT we are all in this together. That means they are soulsick
February 28th, 2010 at 8:25 pmNo. I am not a fan of authoritarianism.
-JT_Lancer
======================================================
I think you are. It looks like you want the wealthy and corporations to control us all.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:25 pmRE: “Based on the CLEAR FACT there was no PROFIT in going to the moon. The investment was stratospheric and there was no foreseeable profit to come from it. What kind of bizarre delusion could possibly lead you to think otherwise?”
People said the same thing about television in the early days. How could anyone conceive of making a profit there? Yet, it was profitable.
Profitable or not, lots of people would love to invest money in a space project.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:26 pmWhy are you people wasting your time with r silly sock-puppets? Lately the trolls have been very successful at derailing every single thread they chose.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:28 pmThe main “reasoning” behind libertarians is supposedly to only have the government protect against force or fraud.
However, libertarians seem to never realise that no government regulations lead to…
February 28th, 2010 at 8:28 pmRE: “I think you are. It looks like you want the wealthy and corporations to control us all.”
Actually, more govt control allows corporations to gain monopoly share in industry. Govt doesn’t PREVENT monopolies – it encourages.
Don’t you think the Senator from, say, Illinois will try to pass blegislation that provides subsidies and benefits (and prevents competition with) companies like ADM in his state?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:29 pmRE: “However, libertarians seem to never realise that no government regulations lead to…”
Self rule?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:30 pmIf unions are so great for Americans, why has the American consumer rejected them? After all, less than 8% of private sector employees are unionized.
-JT_Lancer
==============================================
Since, Reagan we handed over our economy to corporations; we embraced free trade which undercuts unions; we’ve got a very vibrant non-union sector also undercutting the unions; and the rights of unions have been curtailed substantially since they got government backing in the 1930s. Also, most Americans would join a union if they had the chance.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:31 pmChina is militaristic? When was the last time they invaded and occupied another country on the opposite side of the globe?
The US spends near $1 Trillion every year on our military when military spending in budgets other than the Pentagon is included.
Actually, the five Waltons did nothing except inherit the $100 Billion from their father! Did you miss the part where I told how taxpayers subsidize their low wages?
My browser really has trouble with these big pages! I’m using IE 8 on my Commodore 64. Any suggestions?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:32 pmTJ
You are confused again. The people did NOT reject unionism. Corporations and Republicans went to WAR on unionized industries. Raygun even gave TAX CUTS and subsidies to companies that would go overseas.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/116863/majority-receptive-law-making-union-organizing-easier.aspx
PRINCETON, NJ — A new Gallup Poll finds just over half of Americans, 53%, favoring a new law that would make it easier for labor unions to organize workers; 39% oppose it. This is a key issue at stake with the Employee Free Choice Act now being considered in Congress
February 28th, 2010 at 8:32 pmSelf rule?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 8:32 pmand i ask again how would this work?
RE: “and i ask again how would this work?”
Don’t you have self rule in your own household? Or, would your family be better off if a govt bureaucrat was available to tell you what is best for you?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:34 pmJT_Lancer, Do you have children? Do you know anyone with children?
Who would keep them safer: a for-profit company willing to foist off poison just to keep as much money as possible – or the Government?
Toy Hazard Recalls
February 28th, 2010 at 8:34 pm“and i ask again how would this work?”
much along the same lines as anarchy i would suppose.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:34 pmActually, more govt control allows corporations to gain monopoly share in industry. Govt doesn’t PREVENT monopolies – it encourages.
=======================================================
No, the government use to break up monopolies. Now they let them do pretty much what they want to.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:34 pmExactly. See Somalia.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:35 pmJT
BUNK. Rural republicans would STILL be in the dark except for rural electrification. No WAY would private enterprise pony up the MASSIVE amount of money spent to go to the moon without any profit in sight. I dont know who said TV would never be profitable but they already had the example of radio to show it COULD be. What POSSIBLE profit could there be in going to the moon considering the massive outlay of capital. You are fooling yourself if you think for one SECOND we would have gone to the moon on private money
February 28th, 2010 at 8:35 pmRE: “You are confused again. The people did NOT reject unionism.”
Au, contraire. The American CONSUMER rejected unionism by rejecting its higher priced goods and services. This is obvious.
“Corporations and Republicans went to WAR on unionized industries.”
If unions are so great for consumers, why haven’t unions themselves risked their OWn capital and started their own businesses to compete in the open market?
For a simple reason – unions are not accountable to the end user (the customer).
February 28th, 2010 at 8:36 pmWho the fck is this idiot lancer? I look forward to coming to TP and talk about politics and current events with the regulars. Then I have to read some crap by a racist a$$hole who gets off on disrupting a thread because he is a lonely and insecure individual. Lancer go to a wingnut blog where you belong, you can say n!!!!r over there and your fellow losers will agree with all the stupid sht that pours out of your iggnorant mouth.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:36 pmJT_Lancer says:
——————————————————————————–
RE: “However, libertarians seem to never realise that no government regulations lead to…”
Self rule?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Yeah , okay ; I wouldn’t trust a jackass like yourself to sell me toilet paper , let alone believe you’re capable in any way of “self rule” ……….
February 28th, 2010 at 8:37 pmDon’t you have self rule in your own household? Or, would your family be better off if a govt bureaucrat was available to tell you what is best for you?
—
February 28th, 2010 at 8:37 pmPlease my household is hardly a global superpower…
JT_Lancer says:
Let’s look at countries where govt has dictatorship or full control of the economy – North Korea, Cuba, half the countries in Africa. How’s that worked out for them? Aside from rampant poverty and dictatorial oppression?
You elevate the most extreme examples of oppression as proof of what? That a “voluntary society” is superior to what we have now?
That’s textbook obfuscation.
Anarcho-capitalists are no less Utopian than the hippie communes of the late 60s – early 70s.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:38 pmJT_Lancer says:
——————————————————————————–
RE: “However, libertarians seem to never realise that no government regulations lead to…”
Self rule?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This is the basic DELUSION of niave and gullible libertarians. They think whatever power the government DOESNT have will go automatically to the people. That is because they dont THINK. Obviously any power relinquished by the government will be competed for and those WITH more power will be in a better position to get MORE. It would lead to rule by corporations and the wealthy. You have to be a really dim bulb to think otherwise
February 28th, 2010 at 8:38 pm“Au, contraire. The American CONSUMER rejected unionism by rejecting its higher priced goods and services. This is obvious.”
and that worked out smashingly…children’s toys made with lead paint and baby formula which was tainted sent to us from china.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:39 pmRE: “Exactly. See Somalia.”
Again with Somalia? Right – let’s ignore that decades of govt strife and conflict made the nation poor to begin with. British colonialism after WW2, arbitrary partitioning of the nation by the Imperial powers, military coups, Marxist rule and repression in the 70’s to mid- 80’s, civil war in the 90’s., etc.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:39 pmFood and water could be cheaper if we did not worry about the poisons!
February 28th, 2010 at 8:41 pmOh I get it now. Ekidon was talking about JT_Lancer when he mistakenly claimed folks here were anarchists… Now it makes sense.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:41 pmJT
Bunk. People will usually pay less when they CAN but once again you regurgitate another talking point without substance. Things dont cost more based on what LABOR costs. Or not ONLY. Things cost what the MARKET WILL BEAR. If a widget costs fifty cents to make and they can GET fifty dollars for it they will CHARGE fifty dollars for it no matter WHAT the labor cost is. Did you notice cars becoming LESS expensive when they began to be made in Mexico? Did people stop buying Japanese cars because once they began to cost MORE than American cars? No they didnt and in Japan the auto industry is UNIONIZED. You spew the propaganda but you DONT know what you are talking about. Just what you were programmed to respond with
February 28th, 2010 at 8:42 pmand besides in my househole we discuss things and make group decisions based on what we feel is right versus wrong not based on the desire to have more shit we don’t need or money…
February 28th, 2010 at 8:42 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
And the free market should decide whether or not I can drive 100 mph in a school zone on the wrong side of the road after a bottle of gin. We don’t need these govt regulations!
February 28th, 2010 at 8:45 pmI told you before that the Obama administration is looking to tax the wealthy as he campaigned on.
You never take anything off the table but do you actually think they’re going to tax anyone under 200K?
What do you think I want to do?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:45 pm“Actually, govt power allows corporations to get legislation passed that benefits them – subsidies, bailouts, trade restrictions, import tariffs”
as oppossed to the free-for-all which would ensue without government?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:46 pmAnd the free market should decide whether or not I can drive 100 mph in a school zone on the wrong side of the road after a bottle of gin.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:47 pm—
don’t forget the acid…
JT
The FACT corporate money corrupts our government in NO WAY refutes my point. ONLY the gov can stand up to FORD when they make and market a Pinto they KNOW will kill people. Only the gov can stand up to STOP the corporation that made a toxic wasted dump into a housing project at Love Canal. Only they can stop corporations from soiling the air and water. Try to do it yourself and see how far you get. So if the gov STOPPED those regulations you would SUFFER. I get that you dont CARE how many DIE for corporate profits but most of us have something known as a soul and we DO care. Child labor laws. Worker safety laws. Corporations would kill workers off one a day if it helped their bottom line. What stopped company stores? LAWS DID. THAT is what you would bring back with your niave and gullible mindset.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:48 pmWould you hire children and work them for as many hours straight as you wished?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:49 pmdbadass, in JT_Lancer’s world you’d be able to get that personal Rocket Launcher you speak of.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:50 pmCan we please go back to redstate and exchange jt for a less annoying troll?
February 28th, 2010 at 8:50 pmJT
Yes I DO know. YOU DONT. You have fantasy delusions about how the market works. The MARKET brought us the Pinto, and Love Canal. Company stores. The market is NOT dogma given us by GOD. It NEEDS regulation. When we stop regulating it eats itself like the current meltdown and the savings and loan scandal. How hard is it to MAKE that widget? Does it take a SKILLED workforce? If it does it wont be that easy to just jump into the market. It is based on priotory tech? You just have no idea how the real world works. You are niave and gullible thus you are a libertrian.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:51 pmI was thinking that it would be one of the upsides and I probably could get my rocket launcher for far less since I wouldn’t have to worry about meddlesome safety requirements and such. I think if I got my rocket launcher together with Keith’s death mobile we could rock JT’s fantasyland…
February 28th, 2010 at 8:52 pmThe bailouts were down to potentially stop another Republican Great Depression; it have limited trade restrictions or import tariffs. Also, we had more of all the things you mentioned above for decades before Reagan took office and we were doing pretty well.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:53 pmdbadass, I take Tums for the acid. :)
February 28th, 2010 at 8:54 pmDoes Somalia have a functional government? Y/N
According to your religion, it should be a thriving superpower.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:56 pmAu, contraire. The American CONSUMER rejected unionism by rejecting its higher priced goods and services. This is obvious.
-JT_Lancer
===========================================================
They rejected it because they have less money as a result to us moving towards a more glibertarian paradise.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:58 pmlancer, why do you ignore eight years of bush/cheney ruling our country and ignoring the constitution as if they were a dictatorship? Do you want to talk about a nation going poor?
February 28th, 2010 at 9:01 pmYou know damn well bush put our country in the poor house. Actually,
The fact is that bushes advisors did that, because bush will go down as the stupidist president ever elected. He wasn`t even capable of feeding the family dog when it was time.
I gaurantee laura slapped george upside the head many times for being such a dumbass.
Thats another thing, ladies how would it make you feel if you were lying in bed and GW climbed into bed with you naked?
Thats another reason why GW should have a date with the justice system.
Samantha Bee was just saying how good it was in her company town with her company store credit and her six-year-old working 18-hour days.
February 28th, 2010 at 9:03 pmDoes it strike anyone else as weird that none of the usual suspects never showed up while JT_Lancer was bad mouthing the right so much. I mean come on. He advocated hiring illegal. Acknowledged the idiocy of US intervention in sovereign nations like Iran, Pointed out that Reagan was a financial horrorshow and on and on yet not a peeop from the others tht come here for attention and to try to be disruptive. Coincidence? I am sort of doubting that…
February 28th, 2010 at 9:06 pmArguing with libertarians is no different than arguing with any fundamentalist. It’s faith-based and evidence and facts can simply be ignored because the “magic” of the marketplace (or God or Jesus or Allah) will make everything perfect.
Notice that JT never acknowledged any response to his “regulation always increases cost” and any examples of clear value from government were either ignored or trivialized — someone mentioned highways and JT went off about traffic jams. Examples of history, from the 19th Century through the 20th, are ignored just like fossils are ignored or written off by the Faithful.
February 28th, 2010 at 9:07 pmJT_Lancer, did you, by chance, attend UC@Davis?
February 28th, 2010 at 9:13 pmthis is not related to anything.. it’s off all topics..
but I’m watching a show… and the guy says
‘After this.. Dick faced an even bigger challenge’
sorry.. just made me crack up.. don’t people consider what they are saying at all?
February 28th, 2010 at 9:23 pmAren’t the teabaggers “dick faced” by definition?
February 28th, 2010 at 9:29 pmJT_Lancer
You do realize, I hope, that the SS program is a Ponzi scheme that’s 200 times bigger than Bernie Madoff’s ripoff.
You do realize that Social Security has no problems at this point at all.. and it won’t for another 25 years? You do realize that it’s still sitting on a nest egg of over a trillion dollars?
I get sooo tired of posting the links to point this out – I get sooo tired of pointing out that medicare is the problem.. not social security.. but if I must I must..
Brookings institute – May 14, 2009
The system has enough money until sometime late in the 2030s or early 2040s. It does face a long term deficit, and the sooner we deal with that problem the better, but there is really no cause for hand ringing that the sky is falling. There is a steady warning that it is time for Congress to face this problem and deal with it. Furthermore it’s a relatively easy problem to deal with. Small adjustments in revenues or in benefits would be sufficient to put the system on a steady financial course for the indefinite future.”
so please.. learn the facts – and if this has been addressed in the some 700 comments on this page – sorry, I didn’t go through and read all of them.. but I doubt it would hurt to repeat it.
February 28th, 2010 at 9:35 pmekidon@60 flagged for sedition.
February 28th, 2010 at 9:37 pmSS is a Ponzi scheme….HA-HA-HA-HA! More right wing talk!
You righties are just soooooooooooooo pathetic and miserable to talk to. Why is it that you hypocritical pieces of human excrement only b*tch about government when the democrats are in charge?
You pricks don’t give a sh*t about our country. You don’t give a sh*t about your fellow citizens, all you care about is your made up little fantasies and right wing fed conspiracies.
Why don’t you worthless piles of human excrement leave our great country and start your own. Come on tough guys, you have all the guns and ammo, how about invading Mexico or communist Cuba. If you don’t like it here get the phuck out!
February 28th, 2010 at 9:45 pmI think we should leave lancer alone.
February 28th, 2010 at 9:46 pmAfter all he is a rightwingnut and that is a handicap.
Its like a person who commits murder and pleads temporary insanity, if the jury agrees then the person on trial gets away with murder.
So if you are a wingnut and blow up a planned parenthood facility or something else like that in the name of morals and family values then you can plead temporary rightwingnut insanity.
Being a repug,conservative,religious, or a teabagger then you walk hand in hand with hatred and racism and you dont care who gets hurt, or dies do to lack of health insurance, or children starving. You fcking wingnuts listen to limpass who is against kids in school getting a free lunch. What the fck is wrong with you losers?
Lancer, if your still here I have a phone number for you(1-212-301-3000) You can leave a message for your god. Glenn beck. I call there all the time but they never return my calls.
They dont agree with facts and the truth.
If Democrats use reconciliation to pass health insurance reform legislation, it will not be the end of the Senate, it will be the end of the Republican Party.
February 28th, 2010 at 9:49 pmJeez, I’m gone for a couple of hours and JT is STILL here? Talk about a glutton for punishment! No matter how much we debunk him, how much we humiliate him. He comes back for more. What an idiot.
February 28th, 2010 at 9:52 pmand just to make the point that it isn’t one study that says this – it’s every study..
The last 5 Trustees Reports have indicated that Social Security’s Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI) Trust Funds would become exhausted between 2037 and 2041 under the intermediate set of economic and demographic assumptions provided in each report.
–
Social Security is one of the best run programs in existence -
the pay-ins have been nearly identical to the pay outs – actually with small profits… enough to save up a nest egg for a rainy day.. – it still has reserves even after being ransacked by Republicans… – matter of fact.. it’s running so well that it has been stolen from on many occasions.
this report on MSNBC is old (2005) but it puts it all in perspective..
There have been only 14 of the past 47 years that SS pain out more than it took in.. and some of those years were just before a small adjustment was made in the 80’s. The same type of small adjustment.. (practically unnoticeable) that we would need to make to have it solvent indefinitely.
If you’re so interested.. here’s the pay ins and pay outs for the trust fund since it began. – in 2003 it had an extra 1.3 trillion -
February 28th, 2010 at 9:53 pmJOIN THE BIG PEACE MARCH
IN WASHINGTON MARCH 20!
1. Hudson Valley buses. 2. Details about DC protest. 3. Who’s behind the demonstration? 4. Other information. 5. How can we end the wars? 6. Remembering Howard Zinn.
http://activistnewsletter.blogspot.com/2010/01/01-29-10-march-20-dc-protest.html
Individual sponsors include:
Cynthia McKinney, former House member, and political activist
February 28th, 2010 at 9:53 pmCindy Sheehan, the well-known peace activist
Medea Benjamin, co-founder of CODEPINK
Ramsey Clark, the former U.S. Attorney General
Debra Sweet, Director, World Can’t Wait
Malik Rahim, co-founder of Common Ground Collective
Mike Ferner, President, Veterans for Peace
Blase & Theresa Bonpane, Office of the Americas
Heidi Boghosian, Executive Director, National Lawyers Guild
Ron Kovic, disabled vet and author of “Born on the 4th of July”
Juan Jose Gutierrez, Director, Latino Movement USA
Col. Ann Wright (ret.), indefatigable peace activist
Michael Letwin, Co-founder, Harlem Anti-War Coalition
Gee whiz, over seven hundred comments on some stupid whining from Senator Plaid (remember that plaid vest when he tried to run for Pres several years ago?). It’s time to deep-six this stupid Filly-buster. The GOPs happily used the budget reconciliation process to pass many of their bills in the past thirty years: Bush tax cuts for the ruling class? No problemo…
Authorization for Bush to commit criminal acts by invading The Republic of Iraq? No problemo… But for the Dems to try and help the American people with some health care reform? Oops, big problemo for thes partisan REpub goopballs…
o/t: in the seemingly never-ending Winter Olympics, Corporate Greed got the Gold; National Greed got the Silver and Individual Greed was awarded the Bronze.
If you bother to do the math (simple division) you will find out that the US came in 25th place in the 2010 Winter Olympics on a medals per million basis. The Norwegians were thirty-nine times as good as the US on this basis. We were also beat out by Austria, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Latvia, Canada, Germany, others and even the French (whom right-wingers love to dispise as effete…). (based on populations given in the Time Almanac 2002).
However, on the plus side, the US beat out Russia, China, England, Italy and Kazakhstan…
February 28th, 2010 at 9:57 pmCanada not only has Universal Health Care.. it has more gold medals — socialism won… noooooo cry the righties..
February 28th, 2010 at 10:00 pmSocial security takes in money every week from payroll deductions.. it is not an unfunded liability.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:01 pmOval12345678
medals per million basis.
what in the heck kind of hair brained way of figuring medals received or deserved would that be… basing it on population???
?
We always stack it in our favor by having so many people in every event.. if you haven’t noticed.. and we won more medals overall.. but I hardly see what population has to do with it..
February 28th, 2010 at 10:03 pmLamar is a liability to the Senate, the country and the human race. But he is well funded and receives government run health care.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:06 pmGod was on the Canadian hockey teams side because they represent a country that takes care of their sick.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:09 pmalso.. this year was our best showing in the Winter Olympics I believe the US has had ever.. or if not that in decades – take a look at the past for perspective.. -
2006 – germany 29 .. US 25 (we got 2nd)
2002 – germany 36 .. US 34 (2nd again)
1998 – germany 29 .. US 13 (6th..)
1994 – norway 26 .. US 13 (5th..)
and the further you go back the worse we did really..
We’ve always been terrible in the snow – this year is the best we’ve done.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:10 pmI think the troll passed out from painful carpal tunnel caused by a combination of masturbation and typing too long at Think Progress. I hope he has good health insurance.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:11 pmP.D.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:11 pmlancer is still here because he would rather get beat up by us libs then go upstairs and have his fatass wife slap him around.
lux (brought to you by The Truth (c)) says:
also.. this year was our best showing in the Winter Olympics I believe the US has had ever.. or if not that in decades – take a look at the past for perspective.. -
2006 – germany 29 .. US 25 (we got 2nd)
February 28th, 2010 at 10:14 pm2002 – germany 36 .. US 34 (2nd again)
1998 – germany 29 .. US 13 (6th..)
1994 – norway 26 .. US 13 (5th..)
————————————————————–
On the bright side we placed higher in the 2010 Winter Olympics than we do on infant mortality rate.
I’m still laughing at dr.runts1 erroneous claims made on the Beck thread about democratic progressives and the creation of the Federal Reserve. What a complete and utter idiot.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:17 pmWhy are the Republicans so afraid of the Democrats using reconcilliation to give people decent healthcare?
February 28th, 2010 at 10:18 pmDidn’t they use it too?
February 28th, 2010 at 10:22 pmgummich
You are right. It is religious dogma to the libertarians. They need no evidence for it nor will they accept any reality that refutes it
February 28th, 2010 at 10:22 pmRepublicans are afraid that if Democrats provide healthcare to every American, no one will vote Republican again, and they are right to be afraid.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:24 pmlinzloo08 brought to you by I Want My Country Back, Inc.!! says: @ 725
——————————————————–
It’s simple. The republicans know if health care reform is passed, it’s a victory for President Obama, for whom they want to fail.
The only reason why they wanted to start over was because they know the American people are tired of hearing about health care and just want it to be passed and done with.
Once health care reform is passed President Obama and the democrats can move on to other pressing issues.
The republican party used the delays in passing health care reform as a form of political gain. Hoping it would help them in the mid term elections in November.
In doing so they have proved to all Americans that they not only hoped that our President failed but also put the importance of their party’s agenda over the lives of 40,000 Americans.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:24 pmYeaaah they don’t have much of a heart, do they?
February 28th, 2010 at 10:26 pmRepublicans have shown themselves to have absolutely no interest in compromise or working for any improvements to our failing health care system. If Democrats are worth spit they will use reconciliation or anything else to pass at least a few meager improvements. The GOP death panel can stamp their feet and get red in the face, lie down and scream for all I care.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:29 pmWhy anyone would vote for these guys is beyond me.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:29 pmThe republicans know they will again be in trouble as the American people see them as the obstructionists. If the economy picks up and more jobs are created and we do indeed remove most of our troops out of Iraq in August, the republicans will be in deep sh*t come November.
Sure they can spin reality and continue to spew their lies but if the above happens and they don’t have a good solid presidential candidate by 2012(they won’t) President Obama will be reelected.
Once the tide turns the republicans will have no choice but to work with President Obama and the democrats because the American public is tired of the partisanship and they know damn well that the republicans are too blame for it.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:29 pmto = too
February 28th, 2010 at 10:32 pmStupid corporatist dooshbag!
February 28th, 2010 at 10:32 pmI always say, “I’ll vote Republican as soon as Tom McCall runs for office”. Oregon’s famous and fabulous and long dead Republican Governor who would be run out of today’s GOP on a rail.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:33 pmOops meant that the other way around. I am exhausted from dealing with brainless trolls. ;)
February 28th, 2010 at 10:33 pmProphet,God has nothing to do with it.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:34 pmWhy is it when something good happens people thank god. I really get a kick out of athletes who win the super bowl or the world series and thank god. BULLSHT, its like when someone is murdered if the family is religious they say god wanted to bring him/her home, their in a better place. BULLSHT. If you think its a better place then kill yourself and go there. Where the fck is god when a little girl is getting brutally raped and then strangled to death? Where is god when children go to bed hungry every night? Where is god when children with cancer are going through chemo and suffering everyday? I really love the religous people who lost a child and then say god wanted to bring them home.
Thats fine, but why would your god let your child spend a few hours terrified while he/she is being brutally raped and murdered. How long is it going to take people to realize that peoples religious beliefs are the reason for wars and conflict all over the world. ENOUGH!!!
ssc@722, LOL! I needed a laugh! But I guess I shouldn’t promote domestic violence. Even if a sorry, ignorant troll is getting a beating.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:37 pmsscncturn64 says:
February 28th, 2010 at 10:38 pm—————————————————
Calm down! It was said in jest at the religious right types who like Pat Robertson who always blame earthquakes, hurricanes and other disasters on gay parades, Haitians not wanting to be slaves, etc, etc, etc, ….So I just turned the tables on these whack jobs and stated that God let the Canada hockey team beat the USA because Canada takes care of their sick. That’s all.
Also has anyone ever seen god? If you ever do let me know, I would love to personally meet him/her so I could promptly beat the crap out of it for fcking up our world.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:38 pm741…Man has phucked our world…just saying.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:40 pm736 jb…
McCall..hehe
I remember the “don’t come to Oregon” campaign…I think he was gov. at the time. The put out a whole range of cards, posters, etc. to discourge people moving to OR.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:40 pmThe = They
February 28th, 2010 at 10:40 pmOff Topic… Sen. Kyl actually DEFENDED Sen. Bunning in a way. Although he stated that the jobless benefits would pass, the SOB STILL defended Bunning. These Repugs would rather see Middle Class Americans and the Poor die in the streets to satisfy their Corporate Masters.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:41 pmProphet,
February 28th, 2010 at 10:42 pmI just wanted to spew and you opened the door for me to make a comment about god. I apologize if I came across like it was towards you.
Yeah, the signs at the border greeted people with, “Enjoy your visit.” Also first bottle bill in the country, State land use planning, and kept Oregon beaches public. There used to be some Republicans you took seriously because they had good ideas. Now all they have is a bunch of uninformed rabble and a shitload of corporate money.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:45 pmI wonder when the graveyard shift trolls will show up?
February 28th, 2010 at 10:47 pmsscncturn64
Why is it when something good happens people thank god
Because they believe in God.. you don’t – so from your perspective you wouldn’t thank God.
Where the fck is god when a little girl is getting brutally raped and then strangled to death?
Same old ‘why is there evil in the world’ argument.. and the answer is the same every time – you can’t have free will without the permission of evil to exist. All prayers are not answered – that’s obvious.. else we would just pray evil didn’t exist and poof – as far as arguing why one prayer would be answered rather than another – it’s nothing but a straw man.. because of course it’s not answerable by anyone. But simply put.. you can’t make a free choice without being permitted to make the wrong one – evil is necessary for choices to be possible.
If you think its a better place then kill yourself and go there
Suicide cancels that out by Christian belief, you do realize? Kill yourself and you don’t make it to the better place.
You don’t believe – that’s fine.. it’s your option – but please spare the world which is still predominantly believing your conniption fit simply due to the fact that you don’t understand religious belief. Religious extremists cause these problems you speak of.. the vast majority of believers are not the ones you are talking about – they are .. as the name terms it.. extremists.
Anyone who truly follows Christian belief believes that not only is killing, all killing, wrong – they believe in the golden rule – as offered by Christ – and they are by their very belief system, non-violent and feel that all men are brothers. If someone doesn’t follow this line of thinking and claims to be Christian.. they are nothing more than a hypocrite and a wolf in lamb’s clothes.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:49 pmIn@748, LOL! Maybe ssc. is right right and they are getting slapped around by their fat-ass wives!
February 28th, 2010 at 10:51 pmT_Lancer says:
True, regs do sometimes save lives. But they also keep dying people from accessing drugs that may save their lives.
So, you’d trade the certainty of safe, contaminant-free food and medications, for the chance that one of those untested, unproven medicines could potentially, maybe, perhaps, cure your illness?
Wow… you like betting against the odds, don’t you?
February 28th, 2010 at 10:51 pmSeems to me, the main reason people bring up god in public is to let others know that they belong to the goody goody club.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:52 pmlux, thank you for your last comment. Although I consider myself a Christian I do question somethings myself. And I in no way want to be connected to those on the religious right who to me have perverted what Christianity is all about.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:53 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Seems to me, the main reason people bring up god in public is to let others know that they belong to the goody goody club.
jb.. I avoid it at all costs..
as I say every single time – it’s the last thing I care to talk about.. it’s a personal belief.. and nothing is really gained by talking about it usually.
I enter into the conversation from belief being attacked.. so it seems that it’s the atheist/skeptic that loves to speak of the topic.. especially considering I was atheist for 25 years of my life.. and I spoke of it all the time, in extremely distasteful derogatory terms.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:56 pmTrust me, I don’t bring up God so that others think I belong to the goody goody club. I have my vices and commit sin just like everybody else, but I don’t wear my Christianity on my sleeve and look down on others or jam my beliefs onto others.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:58 pmPersonal beliefs should remain personal beliefs. Kind of like dreams. Everytime I’ve told anybody one of my dreams, I can see them fighting the boredom. Some things are just best kept to one’s self. Although, I have been known to advertise my worshi9p of the Frog that lives in my yard. He has super natural powers.
February 28th, 2010 at 11:00 pmThe graveyard shift has arrived!
Hey Alejandro, you cowardly right wingers should be happy about Obama continuing the Patriot Act. After all he’s keeping cowards like you safe from scary brown skinned terrorists and crazy white skinned ones too.
February 28th, 2010 at 11:00 pmGood Night my TP brethern. I’m watching Steven King’s ‘The Stand’. I will see you on the morn…
February 28th, 2010 at 11:01 pmGood nite P.D.
I going to watch ‘Jack Van Impe presents’ later for some comedy relief.
February 28th, 2010 at 11:03 pmjb, you must have some pretty boring dreams, mine are pretty intense. Like the freaky one I had about Nazi’s and the line of death. ;)
February 28th, 2010 at 11:05 pmI love flying dreams.. flew to the top of Sears Tower in Chicago (no longer called sears tower.. I know).. those aren’t exactly interesting for sharing.. but they’re damn fun.
I also love lucid dreams.. where I know I’m dreaming.. and I do whatever the hell I want… those rock.
February 28th, 2010 at 11:08 pmIf you can see your hands in your dreams then you can control them
February 28th, 2010 at 11:10 pmI don’t get why republicans and political pundits think that the incumbent democratic senators up for reelection in 2010 are in trouble if reports are correct that all incumbents are in trouble in November?
The democrats have 13 incumbents up for reelection while the republicans have 12 incumbents up for reelection. It seems to me that the political pundits are trying to sway voters and I believe they are over estimating the teabagger movement.
February 28th, 2010 at 11:16 pmAnd
= giant hypocrite
February 28th, 2010 at 11:18 pmlux,
February 28th, 2010 at 11:20 pmyour right I dont believe god, seriously how many different gods do people believe in around the world. What ever happened to the seperation of church and state?
Its ridiculous that a politician running for office has to believe in god and go to church if they want a chance of getting elected. Thats one of the things that I think is wrong.
You cant have free will without evil to exist? WTF is that supposed to mean. There is alot of evil in our world and thats my point,if god is so great and loves everyone then why does so much evil exist. I can spend years talking about all of the evil things that happen everyday. Please give me examples where really good things happened because of god, and I dont mean some over paid athlete winning a world championship. The bottom line is religeon is the cause of all wars,and lux I do agree with you it is the fanatics that kill people because of their beliefs. It is still religeon, just like the religous fanatics in our country who blow up planned parenthood clinics, and the wingnut who murdered Dr. Tiller in cold blood. Enough!!!
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Meh wassup Doc?
February 28th, 2010 at 11:24 pmI believe they are over estimating the teabagger movement.
Keep thinking that way. -=Doc=-
Its what lobbyists do and have done since. oh. the anti-saloon folks got co-opted by Wheeler. Abramoff, lobbyist, did the same thing. See exaggerating numbers gives politicians cover to point at.
February 28th, 2010 at 11:28 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
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Goodnight P.D.
February 28th, 2010 at 11:29 pmI watched the longeliers today, stephen king is awesome.
“To all, to each, a fair good-night, And pleasing dreams, and slumbers light.”
February 28th, 2010 at 11:34 pmSir Walter Scott
Alejandro,
February 28th, 2010 at 11:35 pmyou were had for eight years under bush/cheney.
Why do you come here? Is it because you spend alot of time on redstate and you cant handle the racist idiocey that flows so easily out of that blog,so you come to TP for some intelligent conversation.
Yanno, Alej, I come to my own conclusions based on my personal beliefs. I am sovereign. I am the final arbiter on what I think and what my actions are and which direction I shall go and what I will do or not do. Tenthers nor TP nor MSM nor pundits nor anyone guides me or influences me.
Its that simple
February 28th, 2010 at 11:45 pmGood night everyone!
February 28th, 2010 at 11:48 pmIt indicates that we need to stop giving network/cable television our business.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
February 28th, 2010 at 11:53 pmsscncturn64
You cant have free will without evil to exist? WTF is that supposed to mean. There is alot of evil in our world and thats my point,if god is so great and loves everyone then why does so much evil exist
It’s a pretty simple idea. You can’t make a good choice.. say ‘not to kill someone’ if killing someone isn’t an option.. – watch the movie ‘a clockwork orange’.. it covers this idea pretty well.. if you make it so people can’t do wrong.. that doesn’t mean you’ve made people better.. you just don’t allow them to do wrong. Good is only good if you choose that path – and we could get into a philosophical discussion on whether the fact that someone is doing it because they would be punished by God if they chose the other path.. but that’s also covered biblically – motive is important as well.. you shouldn’t do something to avoid a punishment from a higher power – you do it because it’s right.. otherwise there’s no reward for making that choice. Same as if I give a bum money because God will look down on it favorably and reward me.. I’ll get nothing – motive is what matters.. this is why you’re suppose to give anonymously when at all possible.
Please give me examples where really good things happened because of god
First off.. if you believed God exists.. then my example would be ALL good things that ever happened..
The bottom line is religeon is the cause of all wars,and lux I do agree with you it is the fanatics that kill people because of their beliefs.
The bottom line is that religion is an excuse used for wars.. the reason is not ‘religion’.. that’s simply what people say the reason is.. for example – in the middle east religion and politics are intertwined.. a certain hatred towards a given type of people wells up and then people use the fact that these other people are heathens as a crutch and a cited reason to go to war against them.
And no.. all wars are not due to religion – neither are all killings.. generally speaking it’s usually based on money, power, property and control. – In every country there are two warring factions.. the rich and the poor. This same struggle transfers over into a global scale – the West (US/Europe) versus the middle east(muslim)/East(communism) — though religion is used as the reason it really comes down to rich world vs poor world – it’s about oil..it’s about capitalism and money… religion is an excuse used to wage the war.
February 28th, 2010 at 11:56 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
To further my point… the fanatic muslims tend to hate us and the Europeans equally… though Europe is much more secular – without religion – than we are. If they were being honest.. it isn’t a holy war.. it’s a war against capitalism – it’s a war against the rich sovereign countries from those which are less monetarily sound..
Yes, there are rich people in those countries.. but we are talking per capita – the extremists hate the US and Europe based on standard of living – and due to the fact that they feel we have robbed their countries… a legitimate point if you ask me.. we have used their countries like pawns for a near century. What they fail to understand.. is not only have we abused them – for our love of oil.. their own countries have abused them as well.. their countries tend to be corrupt and have a brand of government that doesn’t benefit the people. They are in a dire situation.. angry at us.. and angry at their own country too! This type of frustration percolates – it builds and builds – and looking for a reason to lash out against someone for it.. it’s easy to claim the reason we do the things we do is because of our religious differences… It’s a scapegoat and people easily get swayed into thinking that.. nevermind the fact that there are Christians in every country.. nevermind the fact that there are Muslims in every country! People still get bluffed into believing that the reason such and such country is evil is because of their certain set of beliefs.. It’s another form of bigotry – hatred of people for a certain belief – but simply because it’s human nature to hate people for having beliefs which are different than your own… that doesn’t mean that ‘religion’ is the cause of war.. it means lumping people together into one group and saying ‘this is why they are evil’ is wrong – it’s bigotry. We have people here that do it.. and it’s understandable.. they’re trying to figure out why Jihadists would do what they do… and they decide ‘it’s because they are Muslim’…. no, it’s not because they are muslim.. no more than murder in the inner city is because they are ‘black’… it’s most often because of poverty, covetousness, jealousy.. — true evils which have no belief system to bind them.. they go across the board to every person. — it’s because of, quite simply, sin.
March 1st, 2010 at 12:21 amIn other words, we must all join together in mutual hatred of government. That’s the Teabagger’s credo.
March 1st, 2010 at 5:30 amWell, let’s end the Senate then! What would be the big deal anyway because if the republicans take control of it in November (they won’t), they’ve already said loudly they will gridlock everything and make sure government stops. So yes, let’s kill the Senate if it means using reconciliation to get the start of health care reform in this country underway!
March 1st, 2010 at 8:33 amWho is Trigg’s real mommie?
Who is Trigg’s real daddie?
Does Ryan Sorba secretly like guys?
March 1st, 2010 at 8:44 am‘The reconciliation procedure is a little-used legislative procedure — 19 times, it’s been used. ‘
Yes, the majority of the time by REPUBLICANS.
The hypocrisy and blatant obstructionism of the GOP is astonishing.
The fact so many of their supporters are willing to accept lies, distortions and distractions is simply sad; they DESERVE Sarah Palin.
Unfortunately, the rest of the world has to suffer her as well.
Way to aim low Republicans.
March 1st, 2010 at 10:03 amSenate procedures are well defined. The Senate Parlimentarian makes a ruling on use of the reconciliation process. The final word, however, rests with the Vice President. While not often invoked (the last VP was Humphrey) there is the presidence per a former Senate Parlimentarian. Obviously, Humphrey’s ruling did not destroy the Senate.
Republican misinformation would lead one to believe Democrats want to “ram” the entire bill through the Senate using Reconciliation. The bill has already passed the Senate on a party line 60-40 vote. Reconciliation would only be used for a very small clean-up prior to the bill going to the President for signature, such as removing the Ben Nelson Amendment.
March 1st, 2010 at 10:09 amKarmaLamp Monday: Healthcare
http://www.karmalamp.com
Today KarmaLamp is tracking the Healthcare Debate on Twitter. KarmaLamp’s heartbeat is driven by the intensity of the conversation.
March 1st, 2010 at 10:33 amSenator Lamar Alexander said Using Reconciliation To Pass Health Care Reform Would ‘End The Senate’. I say good.
The Senate has been nothing more than a Boy’s club for the rich with nothing to do but pass bills that make them and their friends richer. The Republicans have done nothing the last year and a half but obstruct legislation passing through the Senate.
They are like little spoil brats who won’t play because they are no longer in power, so they will stamp their feet and cry and do nothing.
How in the world could anybody ever think about putting these Republicans back in office again. Do you want more of what has happen under George Bush when Republicans ran the show, I think not once people really start to think about this.
March 1st, 2010 at 11:00 amIf that’s the case, what are we waiting for?
Get rid of the Senate!!
March 1st, 2010 at 1:52 pm