Christian threatened at PalTalk

Oh FBI! Did you see that? What are you going to do now? It is time to defend law-abiding people against this outrage.

So, does Ali Habib Ahmed Adir Khalid Dkwad Nihad Omar Omid Muhammad Jones wish to still file bias charges on the Coptic Christians?

DC Watson: How do you know it wasn't a Buddhist who sent this warning - or an old order Amish or (insert favourite non-Muslim religion)? A bit of sarcasm on my part.

It is happening right now,right here in the US...if you dare speak against islam you are on their death list,and the police is turning a blind eye.
For the sake of political corectness,christians will be killed by muslims in the US and the media will ignore it.
What to do??!!

Guns and Rottweillers.

Anna get your Gun!!

A gun in hand is better than 2 cops on the Phone!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH AND COURAGE TO VICTORY[FREEDOM] TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

Shout Shout and Shout

Last time the Armanious family was killed, Muslims were blamed. But who killed them , CHRISTIAN AMERICAN THUGS----Huh.

After it was discovered that the Armanious family had been murdered, rumors began to fly that it was a religiously-motivated killing. Apparently, Hossam Armanious, the father, had gotten into heated arguments with Muslims on an internet chat room and was warned to "stop this bullshit or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you."

What's more, bloggers on the website JihadWatch.org stated: "The Armanious family had inspired several Muslims to convert to Christianity--or thought they had. These converts were actually practicing taqiyya, or religious deception, pretending to be friends of these Christians in order to strengthen themselves against them." Tensions between Egyptian Muslims and Christians flared. Sheikh Tarek Youssof Saleh offered condolences at the funeral of the Armanious family and, according to him, he was called "killer and animal and terrorist."

I called for restraint and echoed the call of many to wait until the investigation into the murder was completed before making premature judgments and accusations. Then came the arrests of Edward McDonald and Hamilton Sanchez , convicted drug dealers, for the murders of Houssam Armanious, his wife and two children. In the days after the slayings, approximately $3,000 was withdrawn from Mr. Armanious' bank account using his ATM card, and surveillance video from cameras over the cash machines helped lead investigators to the accused. McDonald was a tenant in the Armanious' two-family house at the time of the murders.
After the arrests were announced, leaders of both communities expressed relief: "We are very relieved that the perpetrators are brought to justice," said Michael Meunier, president of the U.S. Copts Association, "and we hope they will be severely punished."

JIHAD WATCH only helped to spread rumours about Muslims. This is the true motive of this website.

Islamophobia = Money + Advertisement

Shout Shout and Shout

Last time the Armanious family was killed, Muslims were blamed. But who killed them , CHRISTIAN AMERICAN THUGS----Huh.

After it was discovered that the Armanious family had been murdered, rumors began to fly that it was a religiously-motivated killing. Apparently, Hossam Armanious, the father, had gotten into heated arguments with Muslims on an internet chat room and was warned to "stop this bullshit or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you."

What's more, bloggers on the website JihadWatch.org stated: "The Armanious family had inspired several Muslims to convert to Christianity--or thought they had. These converts were actually practicing taqiyya, or religious deception, pretending to be friends of these Christians in order to strengthen themselves against them." Tensions between Egyptian Muslims and Christians flared. Sheikh Tarek Youssof Saleh offered condolences at the funeral of the Armanious family and, according to him, he was called "killer and animal and terrorist."

I called for restraint and echoed the call of many to wait until the investigation into the murder was completed before making premature judgments and accusations. Then came the arrests of Edward McDonald and Hamilton Sanchez , convicted drug dealers, for the murders of Houssam Armanious, his wife and two children. In the days after the slayings, approximately $3,000 was withdrawn from Mr. Armanious' bank account using his ATM card, and surveillance video from cameras over the cash machines helped lead investigators to the accused. McDonald was a tenant in the Armanious' two-family house at the time of the murders.
After the arrests were announced, leaders of both communities expressed relief: "We are very relieved that the perpetrators are brought to justice," said Michael Meunier, president of the U.S. Copts Association, "and we hope they will be severely punished." http://drhassaballa.blogspot.com/

JIHAD WATCH only helped to spread rumours about Muslims. This is the true motive of this website.

Islamophobia = Money + Advertisement

xyz, just because someone is a caucasian does not make them a Christian. Becoming a Christian is a matter of faith, not of birth. G-d doesn't have any grandchildren.

"The last time the Armenious family was killed"?

There was a first time?

In any event, x-y-z, I'm not at all certain that you really know A-B-C about this issue.

At no time did Robert Spencer or Jihadwatch.org state unequivocably that the crime was the work of muslims. In fact, Jihadwatch.org instead took the opinion that while available evidence and parallel anti-minority violence in Egypt paralleled closely the murder of the Armenious family, final conclusion should be held off until more facts were known. Expressing great suspicion that this was a religious crime against Coptic christians does not constitute assurance that it was in fact so. Even if bloggers HAD asserted unconditionally that the Armenious' were in fact murdered by muslims, how is this in any way an indictment of the website? Is this opinion not permissable? Of course not. In fact, it is perfectly rational to continue to hold this position given the nature of the murders, the past history of muslim oppression of Coptic christians and the fact that the Armenious' were in fact threatened online, and that Christians continue to be stalked online at PalTalk and other sites:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005293.php

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005070.php

http://counterterror.typepad.com/the_counterterrorism_blog/2005/01/christians_on_p.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004896.php

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkzJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NjQ4MTMyJnlyaXJ5N2Y3MTdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5Mg==

and in addition, where muslims cheered their murders:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004881.php

Some of the threats Christians are routinely given include:

"you are under our watchful eyes!"

"You'd better stop this bull ... or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you."

"Laugh, oh Chrisitan, and soon you will see a big hit."

I rather doubt he was talking about Britney Spears.

Besides that there is:
"Even barsomyat.com's banner displays its hatred of Christians. The banner displays a crucifix crossed out by a violent red "X," and the main heading reads in Arabic, "Christians: Revealing the Truth Behind Our Belief.""

"Barsomyat.com features not only photographs of the targeted Christians, but also attempts to track down their addresses. A post about a Christian man whose computer was apparently hacked to obtain his photograph includes the man's PalTalk name, his real name, and the city where he resides in Lebanon."

"This is a picture of the filthy dog, curser of Muhammad (Hissam Armanios) and a photo of his filthy wife, curser of Muhammad (Amal Jaras). They got what they deserved for their actions in America. They were slaughtered along with their children as a punishment from the heavens to those who curse the most divine of all who were created."

So it can hardly be said there was neither motive nor opportunity. Certainly threats against the Armenious family were more than mere rumour. However, it seems your post at least agrees at least with the above, so perhaps I'm merely bending your ear here. One can see overall that previous experience with islamofascism does tend to guide people's impressions of these events. In such a light, how does reporting on this event constitute spreading rumours? Lest somehow reporting the facts be spreading rumour in some bizarre sense.

And finally, how exactly does
"Islamophobia = Money + Advertisement"?? Is Robert Spencer getting a advertising check for this? How?? I'd like you to elaborate on this argument, please.

Geoff

Almost forgot: why are you posting about the Armenious' on a case that, presumably in your view, does not relate to that issue? Are you objecting to the reporting of religious hate? If so, why? I'm curious to know how you defend yourself against charges of clear bias on this issue - I imagine it was not your intention to argue against the reporting of hate crimes?

Geoff

xyz

So they were caught with a stolen ATM card that doesn’t make them guilty of murder.
Usually a multiple murderer doesn’t hangout next door using the victim’s ATM card waiting for the police to arrest them, they go into hiding, so they don’t attract attention. This leaves me to believe the murderers have not been caught.

xyz~ How does JihadWatch manage to get those 'rumors' published in hundreds of newspapers around the world, each day, Every day?

Good work, guys. Good, calm presentations back to this guy.

Gary, I agree with you about the good responses to xyz.

The "swiss cheese" element of this case is what makes everything so troubling here. The prosecutors (underfunded and understaffed) want this problem to go away. They are not going to go into the complications of the issue. Give em 2 robbery suspects and they are happy to book them and close the case. I don't think we can expect more from them at this point, unfortunately.

Though there are federal agents working as well, the prosecutor is the one in charge. So once again it is DeFazio's call, DeFazio's case, and DeFazio's oversight.

But the Egyptian Coptic community is totally convinced that something is not right here. There are not only many unanswered questions, but many inconsistencies that don't make sense. They know that Jersey City has a lot of problems. It is a somewhat high crime area, where evidently a lot of drug trafficking takes place. But at issue here is the way the crime went down. The inconsistencies are glaring.

One Copt I spoke with questions the use of a kitchen knife on four bodies. To use a kitchen knife in the manner that is alleged (slitting, digging and stabbing to death), he says, is hard to do with all four bodies. He felt that the knife would become duller and duller after each killing, making it harder to accomplish the murder with each body. If McDonald was worried about his girlfriend upstairs hearing noise, why would he kill in such a grizzley way? Certainly the pain must have been incredible for the victims, and even though the victims' mouths were taped, their screams and crying could be heard.

According to press reports McDonald bradished a semi-automatic gun when he gained access to the Armanious home. Those guns have a hair-line trigger and are very easy to use. According to the Jersey Journal, the gun was recovered and was loaded. So my question is why would any seasoned criminal choose to use a knife to slit, dig holes and stab a victim in a very painful death, rather than put a pillow over the semi-automatic, shoot, and kill the victim with just one clean and easy shot?

This was just posted online by the Jersey Journal. It still does not rule out the possibility of Islamist involvement with the suspects. We need to look further into the involvement of Islamists in the prisons and their effect on criminals in the street. And if McDonald or Sanchez were in anyway related to these radical groups in prison while doing time. One also needs to ask, how many jihadist-type killings have occured in a non-jihadist mode?


SLAY SUSPECT'S

Grandfather of his 'wife' faces charges in Maine
Friday, March 11, 2005
By Michaelangelo Conte
Journal staff writer

One of the men charged with murdering the Armanious family was part of an interstate crack dealing group led by the grandfather of the woman he was living with, drug officers in Maine said yesterday.

The grandfather, 65-year-old Victor "Papo" Torres, of Jersey City, was charged with drug trafficking in Auburn, Maine, this week, but investigators say they do not believe he was involved in the Armanious murders.

When Edward McDonald, 25, was arrested last week and charged with four counts of felony murder for the Armanious killings, he had been living on Charles Street, in the Heights, with Stephanie Torres, the granddaughter of Victor Torres.

Victor Torres has a long criminal record in New Jersey, officials said, adding that his brother killed multiple family members on Palisade Avenue decades ago and his son was convicted of manslaughter after killing a man on Ogden Avenue.

Stephanie Torres, the mother of two of McDonald's children, has no criminal record, according to Special Agent Gerry Baril of the Maine Drug Enforcement Agency and Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio

A wedding announcement for Torres and McDonald appeared in The Jersey Journal in 2002, though DeFazio said Torres told investigators the two are not married.

McDonald spent time in federal prison on drug charges stemming from an arrest in Maine in 2001, and DeFazio said that arrest was related to the Torres family drug trafficking there.

"If you look at the crimes that Victor Torres has been convicted of, what just happened with the family there in Jersey City with McDonald looking for money to buy crack, one could certainly draw the analogy that these folks are dangerous and have a propensity for violence," said Special Agent Gerry Baril of the Maine Drug Enforcement Agency.

"The connection between the girl he was living with shows a relationship and up here in Maine he was hooked up with another member of the Torres family."

Several ounces of high-grade marijuana was found hidden with a gun in the apartment McDonald and Stephanie Torres shared, DeFazio said.

McDonald and Hamilton Sanchez, 30, were charged last week with the Jan. 11 murders of Hossam Armanious, 47; his wife, Amal Garas, 37, and their daughters, Sylvia, 16, and Monica, 9, in their Oakland Avenue home.

McDonald was an upstairs tenant of the Armanious family at the time. The bodies of the Armanious family were bound and gagged with duct tape and their throats were cut when they were found on Jan. 14. Both men have pleaded not guilty.

"There is no direct relationship at all between the quadruple homicide, the murders of the Armanious family, and the Torres activities," DeFazio said. "But there is a link, obviously, with the Torres family, and of course (McDonald's) relationship with Stephanie Torres.

"Apparently, the federal conviction of Edward McDonald was related to his activities with the Torres family in Maine."

The investigation that led to McDonald's arrest in Poland, Maine, in 2001, "associated him with members of the Torres family from Jersey City, suspected of importing and distributing cocaine and crack cocaine in the greater Lewiston-Auburn area," Baril said.

In 2001 McDonald was indicted with Carlos Torres on a drug charge in New Jersey, but McDonald, who was already in federal prison on a drug charge, pleaded guilty to the state charge and Carlos Torres was let go.

It is not clear if Carlos Torres is the brother or cousin of Stephanie Torres, officials said. McDonald's sentence on the state charge ran concurrently with his federal sentence so his prison term was not affected by that guilty plea, officials said.

Carlos Torres has spent time in prison in New Jersey on charges including drug dealing, burglary and weapons offenses, state corrections officials said.

Arrested with Victor Torres Wednesday in Maine on the same charge was Felix Merced, 35, AKA "Felix Ramos," also of Jersey City, Baril said.

Merced is suspected of handling drug transactions between local users and dealers being furnished by the "Torres organization," said Baril, adding that Merced has a criminal record in New Jersey and Maine.

Victor Torres' career of crime in New Jersey began in 1969, when he was charged with murder but pleaded guilty to aggravated assault and spent seven years in prison, Baril said.

In 1981 he was again arrested on murder charges and that led to a 10-year sentence, Baril said.

In 1993 he was arrested and charged with drug distribution and sentenced to three years in prison, and in 1993 he was arrested for aggravated assault and drug distribution, earning himself another prison stay, Baril said.

Finally, in 1999, he was arrested for drug distribution, was convicted and sentenced to eight years in prison, and was released in February 2004, Baril said.

When Victor Torres and Merced were arrested Wednesday, they were found with 15 grams of crack, Baril said.

Outside their apartment, four pipe bombs were found in the parked car of a local man thought to be a drug customer, Baril said.

Victor Torres' son, Reynaldo Torres, was convicted of manslaughter for shooting a man on Ogden Avenue in Jersey City in the mid-1980s during an argument likely about drugs, officials said, adding that he was sentenced to 15 years in prison on that crime.

Reynaldo Torres later spent more than a year in prison for drug possession and was released in March 2003, state corrections officials said. It is unclear whether Reynaldo Torres is Stephanie's father, officials said.

Although his name could not be verified yesterday, a brother of Victor Torres killed a number of his family members on Palisade Avenue in the late 1960s, pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity and was committed to a hospital for the criminally insane, officials said.

Authorities say McDonald and Sanchez forced their way into the Armanious home on the night of Jan. 11 and, after Monica recognized McDonald as the upstairs tenant, the two of them stabbed the family to death.

Commenting on criminals in the Torres family, DeFazio said: "I think it's very disturbing and something law enforcement has been and will continue to be concerned about. It displays the recidivism, and shows that the same cast of characters commit crimes over and over again, and that is a general statement having to do with crimes across the country."

Another question pops up. Though many people believe that Sanchez didn't commit the crime because of his behavior in the court room, he is alleged, according to press reports, to have killed three of the four victims. So far, very little has been revealed about Sanchez, his affiliates and his background. If he did murder the three, he should be looked into further.

Another glitch. According to news reports, both suspects are represented by public defenders. Nothing against public defenders, but if I am not mistaken they tend to be the less-seasoned attorneys. And in a busy place like Hudson County, will these public defenders have the quality time to properly defend their clients?

The holes and problems in this case are so many that I still think the door is open to a variety of possibilities.

Another point made by a previous poster. If McDonald needed money so badly, and has this pipeline drug connection in Maine with girlfriend's (some say his wife's) grandfather, why in the world would he have bothered with a bungled burglary, when he could have made three times the amount on the street? Even without the grandfather, supposedly there is a lot of drug trafficking in Jersey City. If that is the case and he is a seasoned criminal, why not make the money doing that? Knowing about the home equity loan is one thing, but how could he imagined getting the entire 50K out of the bank through an ATM card? It still doesn't add up...

Another point is why did they leave the jewlery it was reported that they left $40.000 worth of jewlery in the house, also I read the muslims congratulating each other on the deaths of the family(I read it in Arabic on the web), they knew not only their names, but what they did on Paltalk, who said what, etc etc.
Also the Imam of the Jersey mosque has actually called on his people to kill the father.
I got all this from just reading the newspapers, and the weblogs,and yet DeFazio finds nothing wrong with all of that.
Is it unreal, of course not, but what is amazing is that the Copts, with just their own resources are managing to disrupt the incredibly well financed Muslim Jihad propaganda machine, that's why they hate us.
Time the Middle Eastern Christians united, but who will stand by us, we are a political liabilty for the American Administration, but if Americans knew any better, and judging from these websites they do, they would heed our advice on these issues.
Also don't forget that the Army, the FBI and the CIA is now recruiting Ethnic Middle Eastern Christians. More reason to target us.
P.S Please don't call us Arabs, we were forced to Arabize, but have managed to retain our languages our religion and our ethnicity despite centuries of hate and persecution, and will continue to do so.

Copts and Muslims
Friday, March 11, 2005
EDITORIAL BY THE RECORD

YOU can't blame New Jersey Muslims for feeling mad. After a Coptic Christian family in Jersey City was slain in January, the most oft-aired theory was that Muslim extremists were to blame.

Now, two non-Muslims are in custody for the killings, and police say robbery, not religious hatred, was the motive.

Nonetheless, some Coptic leaders who helped spread the rumors that Islamic terrorists were involved refuse to fully back away from that notion.

So here's a message to them: Get over it. It's time to admit you were wrong about this being a religious hate crime, and to apologize for the harm and pain your irresponsible comments have caused.

It's also past time for civic leaders to get involved.

A lawyer for the American Muslim Union in Totowa has written to state Attorney General Peter Harvey, asking him to investigate whether Coptic leaders' inflammatory comments violated any laws, such as the prohibition against inciting violence.

The lawyer, Sohail Mohammed of Clifton, also asked Mr. Harvey to help try to ease the tensions that have arisen between Jersey City's Coptic and Muslim communities since the murders.

Mr. Mohammed is right that some Coptic leaders spewed comments that were hateful and outrageous, and some repeated their unfounded suspicions in national media and on the Internet. Still, the speakers were very possibly within their First Amendment rights.

We agree with Mr. Mohammed that the state's Muslims and Copts could at this point use a conciliator. But the state attorney general seems an inappropriate choice for that role. Instead, either an elected official in Jersey City or a local congressman should offer to organize talks between leaders of the two communities.

Okay, lets be honest for a minute. XYZ does have a point. Everyone here would have laid money on a Muslim being the culprit. However, it wasn't an unreasonable assumption considering the death threats that the family recieved (from Muslims) or the fact that the slaying were ritualistic in nature.

We run the risk of sounding like lunatics if we assume Muslims are the instigators of all evil in the world. In fact, I've seen posts that remind me of the way Muslims speak about Jews. At any rate, this case isn't over and nothing can be ruled out, especially considering the jailhouse relations of the alleged murderer.

Dear overview
'Now, two non-Muslims are in custody for the killings'
Do you have any proof ?

So here's a message to them: Get over it. It's time to admit you were wrong about this being a religious hate crime, and to apologize for the harm and pain your irresponsible comments have caused.

I can see where irresponsible driving is dangerous, but irresponsible comments?
People who possibly suffer from narcissism should exercise a little caution when reading comments.

Gypsygirl, I have to disagree in part about the `blame` issue. Certainly no one`s saying that islam (whether you call this version `radical` or not) is to blame for all crimes, everywhere. This one in particular did have overtones (well, DOES have overtones) of religious hatred, which is why we make a big deal of it. But I certainly don`t blame islam for everything bad that ever happened, and certainly not muslims themselves.

You`re right that the converse does occur on islamic websites all the time: we`ve seen Christianity and Judaism (and, of course, `idolatrism`, whether one takes that to be only `pagan` religions or also Christianity and Judaism) blamed for everything from the tsunami that destroyed Indonesia`s coastline (ironically enough, the muslim part) to muslims being `distracted` from their religion. (They must be easily distracted, I suppose. I`m not sure how one would remedy that - kill all the `idolaters`, maybe? Who knows.) And of course the Americans were supposed to be behind Beslan, and the Jews behind 9/11 (and al-Jazeera). And on and on, as the caravan rolls off into indistinguishable ignominity.

Then again, doesn`t smoking also cause tsunamis? At least one islamic pundit mentioned on this site said that was a reason for this `Allah` calling down his wrath. I admit it might be an easier plan to follow if you want to quit. ```Stop smoking - or else!`` Hookahs don`t count, I guess.

Geoff

Hello Bar,

I agree with you. I did not write the article, but just posted it, so all can see what is going on. It is problematic in that it not only assumes too much, but it seeks to limit the free speech of an entire concerned community.

I too agree that the case is not over yet. In fact, I go a step further and say that even when it is over, we may still not know the truth for a number of years. The Jersey City system is inefficient at best. So even if the prosecutor was superman, he is still behind the 8 ball within the system of the county he is working in. Additionally, his office and the feds are tantilizing over the newfound connection, though slight, between the Torres family in Maine and McDonald. The Torres arrest could prove to be a big drug haul. The Feds like that. But this does not negate the possible prison connection with violent groups like the 5 percenters, or anything else that McDonald or Sanchez could have been doing that was outside of the perview of a robbery gone bad.

The point that bears repeating remains. The murders were carried out in a jihadist fashion, which for any regular crimnal makes absolutely no sense at all considering the circumstances and fact that they had a fully loaded semi-automatic that could have easily, quietly and cleanly done the job. Criminals are not usually that stupid.

The Copts and everyone else has a perfect right to speak their concerns and should. What CAIR and other such groups are trying to do is limit free speech and intimidate others in the future, so that once again, they can manipulate the media, the public and anyone else who seeks to express an opnion that is contrary to their overarching agenda.

Once the right of free speech is limited, we will be dhimified.

Until the truth comes out, all options should be discussed and examined.

Think of this... What if it was a Coptic Christian who was thought to have killed a Muslim?????

What do you think would have happened????

overview
My apologies. I should have your other posts first, then I would have had a clue...

Hi Bar,

It is completely understandable as it is a long thread and I should have qualified the post with a comment.

Best,
Maria