Before visiting a mosque, please google the phrase "taqiyya and tu-quoque" and arm yourself with knowledge. Be prepared to ask -- sweetly, in an Infidel-Wants-to-Know Mode -- about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha when she was nine, about the assassinations of Asma bint Marwan and others, about the massacre of the inoffensive Jewish farmers of the Khaybar oasis, about the decapitation of 600-900 helpless prisoners of the Banu Qurayza, and about so much more. Be sure to mention the Hadith.
Do not let the presentation to those Infidels (hmmm, doesn't that spicy chicken and that pita, and then the honeyed dessert, all waiting for us afterwards, smell good, I can't keep my mind off it, how nice these people are, what good hearts they have to invite us in to share their food and their faith) be allowed to finish without making the most that you possibly can out of that "question time." And bear in mind that you will only be called on once, so you had better have your questions ready -- not really to be answered, but so that they can provoke thought and unease in your fellow Infidels who have come, unlike you, without any mental weapons whatsoever.
Ask about the relevance of what Muhammad did and said for today's Muslims. Ask why he is called in the Qur'an "uswa hasana" and in Islamic tradition "al-insan al-kamil"? If told such things as Muhammad's marriage to Aisha must be "put in the context of their times," don't forget to ask why virtually the first act of Khomeini in Iran was to lower the marriageable age of girls to nine.
Oh, and ask about the concept of the "Dhimmi." Ask what was required of Christians and Jews as non-Muslims under Muslim rule. What did they have to do, in order to remain alive, as "Protected People," rather than dead, as Unprotected People, or to prevent their being forcibly converted -- as opposed to the slow conversion, over time, which was usually the only way open to them to escape the onerous, sometimes unendurable situation of being a dhimmi.
And afterwards, when the talk and question time have come to an end, and when other Infidels come up to you, quietly, to thank you for speaking up and speaking out, and expressing their own inarticulate unease, tell them a few of the books you have read. Tell them about Bat Ye’or, Ibn Warraq, Spencer and Bostom. Tell them of this and other websites (www.faithfreedom.org, www.dhimmitude.org, www.answering-islam.org, for a start). Agree to take their names and phone numbers or emails, and to send them a further list so that they, too, will not merely rely on the nonsense and lies fed to them by the soft-voiced propagandists.
Be sure, that evening, to count how often those propagandists mention something about "the three abrahamic faiths" and the "three monotheisms" that "have so much in common." See how often one of the Muslims present tries to use crocodile-sympathies to deplore the mistreatment of Jews by Christians, as opposed to what he will claim is the "tolerance" of Islam, and do agree with him on one point: that Islam manages to mistreat all non-Muslims.
See if there is any mention of Hindus, or perhaps bring with you to the evening a Hindu colleague of the completely unfoolable kind, so that his mere presence in the audience will unnerve the speaker and others. See if there is mention of the 60-70 million Hindus murdered under Muslim rule, and if not, point out that strange omission sometime during the evening.
Oh, and after that? When you all go to the room with the steaming table of that chicken (or lamb) and pita bread and that delicious baklavish dessert? Go right in, along with the other Infidels, mingling with the handful of Muslims in that mosque who agreed to come out that night and agreed to allow the defilement of their mosque by these Infidels, for it was all in a good cause: defending, shoring up, the Faith, until such time as it becomes strong enough here and in other Infidel lands, so that no more Mosque Outreach, no more phony politeness and sweet reason, will be needed with these Infidels.
Break the silence of the lambs. But not by bleating. By studying in advance just enough about Islam -- enough to make things hot that night in the mosque, and not only for that waiting chicken, that pita, that rice.
From Mr. Fitzgerald's posting, I get the idea that the mosques in the West invite infidels for dinners. Is that so ?
It can be done although Miss York had the advantage of being in her own church, as I recall.
Or how women are treated in Islam, that can be a way to start conversations.
From Mr. Fitzgerald's posting, I get the idea that the mosques in the West invite infidels for dinners. Is that so ?
Yes, that is so, arjun.sevak. In Germany the 3rd of October is "the day of the open mosque" when all Infidels are politely invited to visit their local mosques, where they are "informed" about the peaceful religion of Islam and can eat the wonderful Islamic food in a peaceful atmosphere. Besides of that the 3rd of Ocotber is our national holiday - but of course that's not so important.
Additionally they invite whole classes of children of elementary schools together with their blockheaded teachers. Afterwards the children write small nice essays like this:
"Yesterday we visited Yavuz Sultan Selim Mosque. It was very nice. The Imam told us many interesting things about the great and peaceful religion of Islam. We learned that Islam preaches love and peace just as Christianity does. We had orange juice and baklava, wich is a a very delicious cake with honey and nuts. Now we understand Islam better than before and we will be going to ask our Muslim classmates more about their relgion and thus we can understand each other much better than before and live together more peacefully. It was a wonderful school excursion"
That's not a joke! They even publish these children's essays in local newspapers. I read it and I know from parents with smaller children, that it's true.
Eisvogel, I have already posted this story, last year, about a friend of mine and a series of school trips, but it can stand repeating.
At that time (over 12 years ago) she taught in a primary school in a mixed area of East London. An RE programme was arranged for the 8/9 year olds to visit a different place of worship every few weeks.
Church of England, no problem.
Progressive synagogue, no problem.
Hindu temple, an absolute delight. A warm welcome from a jolly man who had the children in fits of laughter.
Moslem Mosque, oops. After much humming and arring they allowed the children to visit. First the man who met them wanted to talk to the boys separately. My friend refused, insisted that all the class were to be addressed together. Then he only wanted boys to enter a certain section. Again my friend insisted that girls go with, or none of them. Some of the mothers who were helping with the trip were Moslems. They stayed outside and seemed very uncomfortable. Then this man gave the teachers his views on education, and the value of a beating to encourage the brain to absorb information. I doubt that my friend would have been able to stand her ground so effectively now. I also wonder whether the Moslem pupils would have been allowed by their families to enter a synagogue, temple or church at all.
That's quite a different story from mine, Granny Weatherwax. That's interesting. Perhaps it's due to the fact that most Muslims in Germany are Turkish and still(!) a bit more secular than Arabic or Pakistani Muslims. But things are changing to more Islamic in Turkey and in Turkish communities outside. While middle-aged Turkish women often are seen without headscarfs the younger ones wear it.
But still there are no such problems like seperating boys from girls or telling truths about beating and so on. They are very "sweet". They like inviting children and even adult groups. The mosque in my city inform on their website that they have been visited by 300.000 infidels till now. In a city of about 350.000 inhabitants and a surrounding area of about a million!
I guess the children of whom you told will be easier to inform. It is nearly impossible to inform young people who are brainwashed by "Islam is peace"-lessons at school. Only those who live in Islamic quarters are much more open-eyed.
Gorniak, I'd be just like you, afraid I wouldn't make it out alive. Or at least in one piece.
I'm sure they put their best face forward when it comes to visitors. It's the other face that's scary.
Given what I now know about Islam, I would have a very hard time keeping a straight face during a visit to a mosque if I heard their propaganda. If they started spewing stuff about how well Islam treats women or Jews or Christians I would probably not be able to stop myself from laughing till I cried.
It's a shame my Hindu friend no longer lives in my area (even though we do keep in touch via phone and e-mail). He never liked Muslims and he told me all the evil things they did in India, which I now understand so much better. He also has a wicked sense of humor so he'd be a lot of fun during a mosque visit. Once we got going they would run us out of the mosque pretty quick.
Yesterday in my area two local imams and their cohorts gave a presentation on Islam at a big box bookstore. Approximately ten to fifteen people were in attendance, several of these apppearing to be converts-in-training. I interrupted the presentation many times with numerous objections and interjections to the half-truths, omissions, and distortions that were being propounded. For example -and predictably enough - the Koranic passage regarding the killing of one man being equivalent to the killing of all humanity was cited, without being quoted in full context - I protested that this passage was, in fact, a warning to the Jews to behave, or else, and not a benevolent passage as the imams would have the audience believe. The audience was encouraged to submit questions written on index cards, and I complied. One of my questions asked the imams if their primary allegiance was to the global Muslim community (the umma al-Islamiyya) or to the country in which they hold citizenship, which of course is the USA (these imams are black American converts to Islam); I also asked whether any allegiance to this country, if primary, was permanent and unconditional. One of the Imams replied that as a Muslim, his primary loyalty was to God, and nationalism was at best secondary.
I also asked, in writing, if the imams favored the implementation of Sharia law, replacing U.S. constitutional law as the law of the land. One of the imams (the other did not reply) responded that yes, as a Muslim, he would indeed prefer to live under Sharia law, as this is God's preference.
I am omitting a good deal (including the use of taqiyya, or perhaps it was ignorance on the imams' part, pertaining to the "protection" afforded Jews under the Dhimma; the use of tu quoque, or deflection, where Timothy McVeigh was invoked, and the refusal of another Muslim, a sheikh, who was identified as the teacher and mentor of the two imams, to open his Koran and review the passage I cited earlier as a threatening message to the Jews). But the important, and highly troubling matter here is that these two imams, who are conducting outreach presentations on a regular basis and who are described in the local papers as community leaders seeking dialogue and understanding have revealed, when the right questions were asked, that they wish to transform our secular, tolerant (I would now say far too tolerant) society into a Muslim theocracy. By their own admission, they owe their country no loyalty. One can, with complete reasonableness, assume that these are the types of values being instilled in their congregants and in children attending their schools for religious instruction. And these representatives of Islam are the "moderate" ones, no less. By God, why is this permitted to continue? I also do not believe that the audience fully appreciated the ramifications of what these imams were saying - they, in all probability did not understand what their lives would be like as infidels under Sharia law. We are in great danger, indeed, and these individuals are a menace.
Love the food, dislike the religion. I also prefer beer when eating spicy vittles. I'll be happier at a restaurant. Do you think that most non-Muslims who turn up at these events are dhimmis who just don't know it yet anyway?
Hi Granny,
It can be done although Miss York had the advantage of being in her own church, as I recall.
Posted by: Granny Weatherwax
I hope that article gets broader exposure. It is so easy for the Imam to put one over on timid church-goers, but these folks held his feet to the fire. Hooray for them. Like his god, he slithered away because he couldn't stand the truth or the "Light".
Tell interested we miss her.
"Love the food..."
-- from a posting above
Go to the Gulf, to some place where the hospitality has not changed, not been traded in for Infidel cuisine, or "Lebanese" cooking. Try those sheep's eyes. If you don't try them you will not be a good guest, you will be insulting the host. Report back.
Try those sheep's eyes.
Breakfast of champions!
Why in God's name would anyone want to visit a mosque? As an analogy, it is like going in a sewer. I know what's in there, I don't need to go in one.
If one of the muslims I know were to invite me to visit his local mosque, I would counter by inviting hinm to visit our church. He would first have to get approval from his imam, and they they would not permit it, so that would end that.
"Why in God's name would anyone want to visit a mosque?"
-- from a posting above
It can be useful. Even if the subset of Muslims you meet are those who were willing to show up that night, willing to endure the horrific spectacle -- most of the mosque's members couldn't stand it -- of allowing Infidels to come in, to sit down, to sully the premises. But since it is in a good cause, in order to protect Muslims from too much real scrutiny by offering a Potemkin-village view, a seemingly intimate but quite phony look at what goes on in mosques, what goes on in those Qur'an memorization (and sometimes recital) classes, what goes on when the main topic -- that is, the position of Islam, the need for Muslim ways to be observed no matter what the Infidels say, the need for Muslim unity, Muslim strength, Muslim penetration of the political and financial and government system in order to "participate in American life," but not quite in the way that that phrase is ordinarily used, and certainly not for the purposes of supporting the current legal and political institutions, the laws and customs, of the United States of America.
The more often you see the lines of taqiyya and tu quoque, until it becomes so familiar you can produce it yourself, ad libitum and ad nauseam, the better able you will be to convince other Infidels of how fake and dangerous is the siren-song of these Mosque Outreach Evenings, these pointless "dialogues" (Muslim-Christian, Muslim-Jewish -- they can't bring themselves to hold a Muslim-Hindu "dialogue" because the Infidels in that case know too much, are not sappy-sentimental enough, unless they are of the Amartya-Sen or Pankaj-Mishra school (from which Prof. Vidya S. Naipaul is permanently banned for the bad behavior of truth-telling), bending over backwards to prove that they are not primitive communalists, not supporters of the BJP, and are as horrified as the next subscriber to the London Review of Books, or The New York Review of Books, at the very idea of Hindutva.
Visit. Watch. Study. Learn. It is not a visit. It is reconnoitering in enemy territory. It is intelligence work. Even if they hide all the pamphlets about "Palestine" and "Iraq" and "Afghanistan" and take down all the CAIR material about how to insit on imagining, and then to report, so-called "hate crimes against Muslims," including that "hate crime" of being put under close observation at airports and on planes, even if the whole place has been carefully cleansed for the visitors, you will still be exposed to the usual nonsense. If it is a Muslim-Jewish Dialogue, you will be told that "Muslims" are "the new Jews" and also told how wonderfully Jews were treated in Islam, especially as compared with how they fared in Europe. If it is a Muslim-Christian Dialogue, you will be told just how swimmingly the two great monotheisms get along (suddenly, the third one has dropped out), and that "if only" the "rights of the Palestinians" could be recognized, "if only" Israel stopped "dictating American foreign policy," then all mannter of things would be well, and there would be no more problem, no imaginary or exaggerated problem, between Islam and Christianity, that "share so much" what with those family values, that emphasis on modesty in dress, the strong patriarchy and yet -- time for a joke -- "we Muslims all know that women run things in our families, so we are just like you." (Laughter and feeling of comfort suffuses the audience of Infidels, put completely at their silly ease).
Yes, go. Go and take notes. Go, and if you can, secretly tape the whole proceedings. And then play it all back at your leisure, to analyze the methods of Taqiyya and Tu Quoque.
And smile. Be nice. Be affable. Be wondering innocently. Be questioning naively. You just want to know. That's all. Just trying to find out.
Hugh said
Like gorniak and freewoman, I'd be wondering what sort of weapons, mental or otherwise, the kindly Muslim hosts might bring to bear if asked too many impertinent and humiliating questions by a lowly kafir like me.
Think I'll skip the open mosque, although the "Interfaith Dialog" meetings might be a hoot.
Hugh said
That's interesting. I wonder if they have to do any ceremonial cleaning after the filthy unbelievers enter the mosque. I wonder what would happen if someone were to accidentally drop little crosses or Star of David jewelry into little nooks and crannies around the mosque, under a prayer-mat here and there?
That would be naughty, but infidels would not urinate and defecate in mosques the way that Oriana Fallaci reports that Muslims do in churches in Europe.
Hugh since you seem to know what happens when infidels visit mosques, are infidel women allowed to enter the front door with the infidel man?
the last time they had a big get together in my area, they held in some German hall, "Teutonia " how appropriate for Nazi smypathziers!
And don't forget to ask these questions.
• Which nation do you owe allegiance to? The country you live in of the ummah?
• Do you adhere to the Sharia Law or the secular laws of your country?
Thee answer - if they do - should wake up the fellow infidels at the meeting.
WC - The Gathering Storm
http://the-gathering-storm.blogsource.com/
What's the dress code like?
Is it cool if I wear my star of david t-shirt?
What do they do when uncovered infidel women try to sit next to the men?
I think I'll pass on a visit,I'll wait for the movie to come out.
JLP
Visit all places of worship and talk to all religious and political groups.
Talk to friends, family, neighbours and workmates.
Prepare before hand, remain calm, and tell the truth.
Remaining silent is not an option anymore.
"...are infidel women allowed to enter the front door with the infidel man?"
At the most recent Mosque Outreach night I attended, non-Muslim women entered by the same door as the men.
Does anyone have a good link to a simple list of countries, listing age of marriage/consent? I Googled and Googled, but could not find a complete list.
Amusingly, Wikipedia has, for Iran, "15 for males, 13 for females."
Hearing that Hugh went into a mosque is like hearing that Gen. Eisenhower walked through SS headquarters. It would be enough to give any intelligent observer a heart-attack.
Pedagogy has its value, but please be careful. Seriously.
Important tip for mosque visitors. When the vermin invite you to partake of their food after the propaganda session, please remember to pray over your food in an audible (conversational tone; not shouting) voice and in the name of Jesus. You could also preach in your prayer and ask God to inlighten the devils to the true God, forgive them of their sins, etc. Just watch your back as you exit the "den of iniquity."
Fortunately, one great Indian, Naipul, was not fooled by Muslims.
Sir Vidiadhar Surajprasad Naipaul gave an interview with Australian radio a couple of years ago. He had the following interesting thoughts about the origins of destitute in India.
V.S. Naipaul: I think I would like to go back just a little bit to the wretchedness of India, and to talk about what might have caused it, that people behave as though it was always there, it was an eternal. I don’t think it was an eternal.
India was destroyed by the Muslim invaders, they ruled it severely and ravaged it for five to six centuries and they left nothing behind. They didn’t build a school, no institutions, so that was the cause of the poverty, that utter wretchedness where people had no faith in institutions, had no-one to appeal to ever, produced this idea of holy poverty. I think we have to understand that.
I think the Indian wretchedness comes out of the Indian defeat, and this idea of experiencing is utterly wrong. I don’t think the Sanskrit texts pre the Muslim conquest, dealt in this kind of negation. I think this negation has come with the years of squalor and defeat.
This interview with V.S. Naipaul took place on 9 September 2001, just two days before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/spirit/stories/s361036.htm
Hugh - In my youth, I had the opportunity to travel extensively in Greece before it was as 'European" as it is today. One of my best friends from college was the scion of a Greek family from Aegina, and during my travels, I was invited to dinner by his cousins in their ancestral home. It started well enough - salad, calamari, kebabs, pita and wine. Suddenly with great fanfare, a roasted lambs head was placed before me as the honored guest. Baked to perfection, it was grinning horribly with bulging eyes and protruding tongue; the pungent aroma of burnt wool filling the room. Dear Jesus - what to do? What part of this monstrosity was deemed edible? Counterfeiting pleasure, I struggled simultaneously to keep my gorge from rising and to find a way out of this dilemma without committing the grave sin of refusing hospitality.After a long silent minute or so the male cousins began to grin - suddenly they were laughing out loud. My friend Dean had written ahead and asked them to play this practical joke on the greenhorn yankee. The rest of the visit was most convivial with lashings of ouzo and metaxa.
If you are going to have their food, please note a few things:
Greeting to you too, Carolyn2.
I recall an amusing experience back in the 90s when a Muslim cleric visited our American university for a talk. The first Gulf War was in the news at the time.
At Q&A session afterwards, the cleric had several Muslim youths distribute index cards for audience members to write questions on. I wrote "Is Saddam Hussein a good Muslim?" and handed it to one of the clean-cut, dutiful Muslim youths in the aisle.
Soon, the cleric, sitting on stage in his voluminous white Islamic bedsheet, read my card aloud into the mic and answered with an oily rhetorical counter-question: "Is Bush a good Christian?"
What was significant was not the cleric's non-response; what was significant was the explosion of laughter and applause from the mostly white middle-class and upper-middle-class American audience.
Here are some more questions you may ask:
Ask what should be done with the Danish cartoonists that drew the ever so offensive cartoons of Muhammad.(This is a good one)
Ask them to point out where it states that pictures are forbidden in Islam. (Contrary to popular belief, pictures and paintings are NOT forbidden. Only idolization is forbidden. To see more, check out http://www.answering-islam.org)
Ask them why they don't open their eyes and look up when they pray.
Patriot 1/17
hi! I'm a new poster but I've been reading the site for some time.
I just want to tell my visit to a mosque story. This was back in the days before I was a Christian although I talked a good talk at the time. I still marvel that I wasnt fooled.
Anyway, I visited as part of a deal with a muslim friend. He would read a few chapters of the Bible and parts of Isaiah (messianic prophecies) and I would attend a question session at his mosque.
Ever gone into a (semi) public bathroom in your bare feet? I had to go and took a few steps into the restroom but couldnt bring myself to enter a stall. Ewwww. I had to run back for my shoes (which was probably some horrible breach of Allen's rules but nobody saw me) so I could wear them in the bathroom.
That is nothing, of course, compared to my next experience. There is my wide-eyed little PC oh so respectful self (completely over the bathroom thing) standing in front of the doors to the prayer room reading the rules of the mosque. I was not supervised at the time which seems to have been some sort of oversight because this nervous little man comes rushing up to me to shush me away from being in front and outside the empty prayer room which was men only. I told him I was simply reading the rules and that i understood they didnt want me in there but he insisted that I musnt even stand there but that I should come to the women's room where the imam (not a woman. Huh?) would answer all my questions. I get there and the room is full of both men and women separated from each other. (Apparently men could go in the women's room no prob. But God forbid if a women stood in front of the prayer room doors!
My warm fuzzy PC feelings were already fraying but the worst of it came in the "question" session which immediately turned into an all out attempt by one and all to gang up on me and convince me how "scientific" and blah blah islam is. There were like 10 muslims against one little girl. I doubt they had any compunction against an unfair fight.
The good thing is that I think they werent expecting me to put up any kind of resistence to their egregious intimidation and indoctrination tactics but I handled myself pretty well, thankfully, considering how completely unprepared I was. I remeber being able to at least poke holes in their reasoning even if I had nothing to else to offer. My one blow was against the claim that mohammed had been predicted by Jesus and that he was the Comforter that he spoke of. I replied that what then explained the very real experience of the Holy Spirit, by Christians, including myself, for two thousand years. I doubt it made any difference but at least it was said.
Anyhow the end of the story was that my friend ended up admitting that he had never read any of the Bible and that he had kept it in the car for the whole time unable to even bring it in the house. And he an educated man with several degrees! After finally getting it back from him since it was doing no good for him in the car, I tried to get him to come to a church with me to make up for it. He laughed it off very nervously and finally said that he couldnt go because of his religion.
It was the beginning of the end of my starry eyed views about religion in particular that of islam. One of these days I plan to overcome my utter distaste for the job and go again. This time I will be prepared.
hi! I'm a new poster but I've been reading the site for some time.
I just want to tell my visit to a mosque story. This was back in the days before I was a Christian although I talked a good talk at the time. I still marvel that I wasnt fooled.
Anyway, I visited as part of a deal with a muslim friend. He would read a few chapters of the Bible and parts of Isaiah (messianic prophecies) and I would attend a question session at his mosque.
Ever gone into a (semi) public bathroom in your bare feet? I had to go and took a few steps into the restroom but couldnt bring myself to enter a stall. Ewwww. I had to run back for my shoes (which was probably some horrible breach of Allen's rules but nobody saw me) so I could wear them in the bathroom.
That is nothing, of course, compared to my next experience. There is my wide-eyed little PC oh so respectful self (completely over the bathroom thing) standing in front of the doors to the prayer room reading the rules of the mosque. I was not supervised at the time which seems to have been some sort of oversight because this nervous little man comes rushing up to me to shush me away from being in front and outside the empty prayer room which was men only. I told him I was simply reading the rules and that i understood they didnt want me in there but he insisted that I musnt even stand there but that I should come to the women's room where the imam (not a woman. Huh?) would answer all my questions. I get there and the room is full of both men and women separated from each other. (Apparently men could go in the women's room no prob. But God forbid if a women stood in front of the prayer room doors!
My warm fuzzy PC feelings were already fraying but the worst of it came in the "question" session which immediately turned into an all out attempt by one and all to gang up on me and convince me how "scientific" and blah blah islam is. There were like 10 muslims against one little girl. I doubt they had any compunction against an unfair fight.
The good thing is that I think they werent expecting me to put up any kind of resistence to their egregious intimidation and indoctrination tactics but I handled myself pretty well, thankfully, considering how completely unprepared I was. I remeber being able to at least poke holes in their reasoning even if I had nothing to else to offer. My one blow was against the claim that mohammed had been predicted by Jesus and that he was the Comforter that he spoke of. I replied that what then explained the very real experience of the Holy Spirit, by Christians, including myself, for two thousand years. I doubt it made any difference but at least it was said.
Anyhow the end of the story was that my friend ended up admitting that he had never read any of the Bible and that he had kept it in the car for the whole time unable to even bring it in the house. And he an educated man with several degrees! After finally getting it back from him since it was doing no good for him in the car, I tried to get him to come to a church with me to make up for it. He laughed it off very nervously and finally said that he couldnt go because his religion forbid it. Nooooo reciprocation. All the talk of respect for my birth faith was just empty talk.
It was the beginning of the end of my starry eyed views about religion but in particular that of islam. One of these days I plan to overcome my utter distaste for the job and go again. This time I will be much better prepared. You can bet your life on it. Can anyone say grudge match??
hi! I'm a new poster but I've been reading the site for some time.
I just want to tell my visit to a mosque story. This was back in the days before I was a Christian although I talked a good talk at the time. I still marvel that I wasnt fooled.
Anyway, I visited as part of a deal with a muslim friend. He would read a few chapters of the Bible and parts of Isaiah (messianic prophecies) and I would attend a question session at his mosque.
Ever gone into a (semi) public bathroom in your bare feet? I had to go and took a few steps into the restroom but couldnt bring myself to enter a stall. Ewwww. I had to run back for my shoes (which was probably some horrible breach of Allen's rules but nobody saw me) so I could wear them in the bathroom.
That is nothing, of course, compared to my next experience. There is my wide-eyed little PC oh so respectful self (completely over the bathroom thing) standing in front of the doors to the prayer room reading the rules of the mosque. I was not supervised at the time which seems to have been some sort of oversight because this nervous little man comes rushing up to me to shush me away from being in front and outside the empty prayer room which was men only. I told him I was simply reading the rules and that i understood they didnt want me in there but he insisted that I musnt even stand there but that I should come to the women's room where the imam (not a woman. Huh?) would answer all my questions. I get there and the room is full of both men and women separated from each other. (Apparently men could go in the women's room no prob. But God forbid if a women stood in front of the prayer room doors!
My warm fuzzy PC feelings were already fraying but the worst of it came in the "question" session which immediately turned into an all out attempt by one and all to gang up on me and convince me how "scientific" and blah blah islam is. There were like 10 muslims against one little girl. I doubt they had any compunction against an unfair fight.
The good thing is that I think they werent expecting me to put up any kind of resistence to their egregious intimidation and indoctrination tactics but I handled myself pretty well, thankfully, considering how completely unprepared I was. I remeber being able to at least poke holes in their reasoning even if I had nothing to else to offer. My one blow was against the claim that mohammed had been predicted by Jesus and that he was the Comforter that he spoke of. I replied that what then explained the very real experience of the Holy Spirit, by Christians, including myself, for two thousand years. I doubt it made any difference but at least it was said.
Anyhow the end of the story was that my friend ended up admitting that he had never read any of the Bible and that he had kept it in the car for the whole time unable to even bring it in the house. And he an educated man with several degrees! After finally getting it back from him since it was doing no good for him in the car, I tried to get him to come to a church with me to make up for it. He laughed it off very nervously and finally said that he couldnt go because his religion forbid it. Nooooo reciprocation. All the talk of respect for my birth faith was just empty talk.
It was the beginning of the end of my starry eyed views about religion but in particular that of islam. One of these days I plan to overcome my utter distaste for the job and go again. This time I will be much better prepared. You can bet your life on it. Can anyone say grudge match??
Ever notice that with every new mosque they erect in the neighborhood, they forget to put in the flag pole? They never ever fly an American flag at the mosque. Yet they claim "we are American as you are". I don't know about that because my church has no problem flying a flag.
Peggy32 -
I know how you felt when he refused to read the bible or take part in your "inter-faith" dialog.
One of my mom's co-workers is Muslim and one day when I was visiting for lunch, we were discussing Islam and the Muslim belief system. She made the comment that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was mentioned more in the Koran, than in the Bible. This was a few years back when I was a little more naive about Islam. I was surprised that she had read the bible so I made the comment "Oh, you read the bible too?" Where she responded, "oh no we are not allowed". "Well how do you know Mary is mentioned more in the Koran than bible?" "Because the Imam at my mosque has told me so".
At that point I pretty much came the realization that whatever is told to them at their mosque, they believe. Which is pretty scary, to say the least.
A short time after that, I met a man at the beach on the 4th of July. We got to talking politics and Islam and he gave me a book to read. He told me he had handed out over 100 of these books. Now I know why. After I read it, I too bought several copies and handed them out to my friends.
The book is ISLAM AND TERRORISM written by: Mark Gabriel ISBN #0-88419-884-7
That is his Chritian convert name. He was an Imam of a mosque in Giza, Egypt about 20 years ago and he tells his story of how, just by his curiosity of reading the bible and studying Christianity, he was stripped of his Imamship??, almost murdered by his own father, disowned by his family, and imprisoned and tortured. All this just for reading the Bible in Egypt and questioning discrepancies of Islam.
It is really an astonishing read and I highly recommend it to everyone who want's a little more insight into this hostile religion. It gives a personal and in depth view of the real Islam, past and present, from a man who preached it for over a decade.
Hugh :
("hmmm, doesn't that spicy chicken and that pita, and then the honeyed dessert, all waiting for us afterwards, smell good, I can't keep my mind off it, how nice these people are, what good hearts they have to invite us in to share their food and their faith").
We are such suckers.Reminds me of the days immediately following American and British troops' presence in iraq.
bismillah broadcasting corpn(bbc)gushed forth...iraqis are ssso hospitable..always willing to share their dates(dates and more dates...odiously cloying)and bread with the British soldiers....even when about to die did not hesitate to share his dates...blahblah...
An indian muslim called saeed naqvi,typically suave taqiya spewing *moderate*, in his TV shows (aired in India)would similarly launch on "how magnanimous and hospitable muslims are...how there is ALWAYS plenty of food for anyone who comes in....."
Stay away from their food .Recall how some of them added "freeze dried faeces" to food meant for infidels?
Stay away from their mosques too.This site is enough to educate us.
"recall how some of them added..."
-- from a posting above
It's easy to recall. I had a near-dysenteric experience that went on for months after being treated to some of those special ingredients added just for Infidels.
Oh well, they may not believe in drinking, but it sound like they certainly love good food. That question about putting strange ingredients in the food meant for 'Infidels.' If they invite you for a good dinner, might be worth slipping a few drops of Pina Colada or Cherry Brandy into the stew while no-one is looking. Now that's what I call communing with the Spirit - everyone will will Ooooohhhhh so happy.
Sarah. X
Oh well, they may not believe in drinking, but it sound like they certainly love good food. That question about putting strange ingredients in the food meant for 'Infidels.' If they invite you for a good dinner, might be worth slipping a few drops of Pina Colada or Cherry Brandy into the stew while no-one is looking. Now that's what I call communing with the Spirit - everyone will will Ooooohhhhh so happy.
Sarah. X
Oh well, they may not believe in drinking, but it sounds like they certainly love good food. That question about putting strange ingredients in the food meant for 'Infidels.' If they invite you for a good dinner, might be worth slipping a few drops of Pina Colada or Cherry Brandy into the stew while no-one is looking. Now that's what I call communing with the Spirit - everyone will will Ooooohhhhh so happy.
Sarah. X
Oh well, they may not believe in drinking, but it sounds like they certainly love good food. That question about putting strange ingredients in the food meant for 'Infidels.' If they invite you for a good dinner, might be worth slipping a few drops of Pina Colada or Cherry Brandy into the stew while no-one is looking. Now that's what I call communing with the Spirit - everyone will will Ooooohhhhh so happy.
Sarah. X
Oh, another thing while I'm at it. I could never invite a Muslim to my house for dinner, especially not at Christmas. Not many items of food escape the alcohol. Last Christams we had a vegetarian dish for New Year as well as the traditional Turkey soaked in Cider for Christmas Day. We had 'Chestnut and Red Wine Pate en Croute; Wild Mushroom and Madeira Sauce for the gravy; Rum Marinaded Fruits with Coconut and Lime Cream for dessert; Christmas Pudding with Brandy Sauce; Leeks cooked in Spiced Wine; Brandy Butter with Mince Pies, and lets not forget the Christmas cake smothered in a generous helping of Cherry Brandy. No. A Muslime would hate every minute of it.
Sarah.
Another reason to visit mosques: these are what your churches will look like in a few decades if Islamist terrorism is not checked. Almost every mosque in northern India is built over a pillaged temple.
I visited a presentation by a local imam at the local university. When challenged on the violence of the Quran, he also gave the "arabic is difficult to translate" defense.
Fortunately, I had taken a Christian Palestinian woman with me and she joined in the challenge and confirmed the accuracy of the translation. She then asked the Imam a question in Arabic to which he responded that as a Pakistani, he was "not conversational" in Arabic.
"So" my friend pointedly asked him, "everything you know about Quran is from translation?"
He stuttered and then accused my friend of "trying to set him up!" Needless to say, his presentation gained no converts.
C&C
You are right. Visiting a mosque is pointless: if one knows about Islam what we know, it's just subjecting ourselves to endless bovine excrement. If one doesn't, one's simply setting oneself up for deception. And if one is going there to challenge the taqiyya artists to a debate, one is either a masochist, or worse, setting oneself up for assault. Why bother? It's not even necessary to read copious analysis on the Quran, as in Islam-watch.com; all one needs to do is study the history of how Islam spread, and how Muslims treat their neighbors everywhere - India, Israel, Egypt, Lebanon, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Iran, Turkey, Iraq,... the list goes on.