In FrontPage this morning I discuss some elements of the Muslim Prophet Muhammad's example that blur the distinction between forced and uncoerced conversions to Islam (news links in the original):
The most bizarre element of the two weeks of captivity suffered by Fox News reporter Steve Centanni and photographer Olaf Wiig at the hands of Gaza’s Holy Jihad Brigade was the video that surfaced depicting their conversion to Islam. Even before the journalists revealed that their conversions had been coerced, there were disturbing indications that they were not acting freely. While reading a statement he himself had ostensibly written, Centanni stumbled over words, appeared to puzzle over the handwriting, and seemed to grimace after pronouncing the words “peace be upon him” after the name of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.Their messages as new converts to Islam were predictable denunciations of the United States and Israel, combined with emphasis on Islam’s universal call as the solution to the world’s problems. But most jarring was the video editor’s invocation of the favorite Qur’an verse of Western analysts of Islam and terrorism, “There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256). The irony of featuring this verse in a video depicting two forced conversions has been widely noted. In fact, however, the juxtaposition of this verse with the video of Centanni and Wiig was probably not simply transparent deception, as strange as that may seem, and has far-reaching implications.
Islamic law forbids forced conversion, but as Andrew Bostom documented in a FrontPage article yesterday, this is a law that throughout Islamic history has all too often been honored in the breach. Nor is this yet another case of a “twisting” or “hijacking” of Islam; in fact, Islamic law regarding the presentation of Islam to non-Muslims manifests a quite different understanding of what constitutes freedom from coercion and freedom of conscience from that which prevails among non-Muslims.Muhammad instructed his followers to call people to Islam before waging war against them – the warfare would follow from their refusal to accept Islam or to enter the Islamic social order as inferiors, required to pay a special tax:
Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war…When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them….If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya [the tax on non-Muslims specified in Qur’an 9:29]. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. (Sahih Muslim 4294)There is therefore an inescapable threat in this “invitation” to accept Islam. Would one who converted to Islam under the threat of war be considered to have converted under duress? By non-Muslim standards, yes, but not according to the view of this Islamic tradition. From the standpoint of the traditional schools of Islamic jurisprudence such a conversion would have resulted from “no compulsion.”
Muhammad reinforced these instructions on many occasions during his prophetic career. Late in his career, he wrote to Heraclius, the Eastern Roman Emperor in Constantinople:
Now then, I invite you to Islam (i.e., surrender to Allah), embrace Islam and you will be safe; embrace Islam and Allah will bestow on you a double reward. But if you reject this invitation of Islam, you shall be responsible for misguiding the peasants (i.e., your nation). (Bukhari, 4.52.191).Heraclius did not accept Islam, and soon the Byzantines would know well that the warriors of jihad indeed granted no safety to those who rejected their “invitation.”
Muhammad did not get a satisfactory answer either from Chosroes, ruler of the Persians. After reading the letter of the Prophet of Islam, Chosroes contemptuously tore it to pieces. When news of this reached Muhammad, he called upon Allah to tear the Persian emperor and his followers to pieces (Bukhari, 5.59.708). He told the Muslims that they would conquer both empires: “When Khosrau [Chosroes] perishes, there will be no (more) Khosrau after him, and when Caesar perishes, there will be no more Caesar after him. By Him in Whose hands Muhammad’s life is, you will spend the treasures of both of them in Allah’s Cause” (Bukhari 4.53.349).
Muhammad did not limit his veiled threat only to rulers. Another hadith records that on one occasion he emerged from a mosque and told his men, “Let us go to the Jews.” Upon arriving at a nearby Arabian Jewish community, Muhammad told them: “If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle” (Bukhari, 4.53.392). In other words, if you accept Islam, you may keep your land and property, but if not, Muhammad and the Muslims would confiscate it.
Bostom notes: “Orders for conversion were decreed under all the early Islamic dynasties—Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, and Mamluks. Additional extensive examples of forced conversion were recorded under both Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish rule (the latter until its collapse in the 20th century), the Shi’ite Safavid and Qajar dynasties of Persia/Iran, and during the jihad ravages on the Indian subcontinent, beginning with the early 11th century campaigns of Mahmud of Ghazni, and recurring under the Delhi Sultanate, and Moghul dynasty until the collapse of Muslim suzerainty in the 18th century following the British conquest of India.” Since these Muslim rulers and armies all revered Muhammad as an “excellent example of conduct” (Qur’an 33:21), this is not surprising.
After being freed, Centanni said: “We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint. Don’t get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn’t know what … was going on.”
Indeed, few in the West know what’s going on regarding the example of Muhammad and the stance of traditional Islam on conversion. The human rights should have the courage to recognize and denounce this conversion-or-else directive, and to recognize the plight of those who even today suffer from its scourge. Moreover, with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad operating according to Muhammad’s instructions, this now has geopolitical implications. In his letter to President Bush, Ahmadinejad invited him to accept Islam, and then echoed the Prophet of Islam in delivering a threat to Bush through Mike Wallace: “We are all free to choose. But please give him this message, sir: Those who refuse to accept an invitation will not have a good ending or fate.”
Ahmadinejad’s threat, as well as the ordeal of Centanni and Wiig, epitomizes the threat that the global jihad represents to the freedom of conscience. Analysts are increasingly beginning to note that the conflict has ideological dimensions, but these dimensions are still imperfectly understood in the public sphere. Were Western leaders courageous enough to speak forthrightly about the threat we face as an Islamic jihad, they could use the “conversions” of Centanni and Wiig to illustrate one of the elements of Western civilization that is being challenged and that we are resolved to defend. Unfortunately, mired as they are in denial about the nature of the “terror” threat itself, they have made as yet no such resolution.
Have the two journalists publicly renounced their conversion yet? Will they be allowed to do that as publicly as they have with their other comments on their ordeal?
If this happened to me, I'd call as big a press conference as I could muster, to publicly become an apostate. Then I'd share my views of Islam. :)
About 5 years ago -
I was working at a conference hall owned by Pakistani Muslims. All the staff were Muslims and I (the manager), was not.
Whenever there was a Hindu Wedding there they would try to get the girls, (underage ones) Drunk and take them round the back and molest them. They would call the Hindus Pigs etc (behind their backs of course). The Jews they would steal from, mobiles, wallets purses from handbags etc and blame it on Gypsies that lived nearby.
I knew nothing of Islam and was liberal, open minded and stupid. One evening the conversation got round to me being the only non muslim. The were joking around and started calling me Dhimmi. I thought it meant I was Dim in a joking way... Then one of them told me to say a few words in Arabic.. blah blah ... blah. They then said NOW YOU ARE A MUSLIM..
They told the OWNERS that i was a muslim now. A few days later I told them that I am a Christian and that was never going to change. The Owners started shouting at me and calling me Apostate etc.
Needless to say they fired me and I am glad to have left that hell hole.
Churchill,
Your story sounds like its right out of a Jeremy Clarke "Low Life" column in the Spectator. My brother-in-laws are Pakistani, they sound like the bunch you worked with. They have since become born-again and they have become worse.
Its true though, thats exactly what happened.
They tried so many times to make me hate the Hindus and Jews etc that i figured something wasn't right.
They also told me that in thier Mosque they get taught that they will have to go and kill the Infidels and when the time comes and thier Imams announce it they will go out and kill door to door the Infidels. I asked if he would kill me if told to and he said YES. No humour was intended. They then told me the line that I was to say to become a muslim and suggested i memorise it for when the time comes and a muslim is at my door , it will save me.
This was in April 2001....
Have the two journalists publicly renounced their conversion yet? Will they be allowed to do that as publicly as they have with their other comments on their ordeal Posted by: bjjfiter....They did not....they spent an hour with Greta last night on Fox News....Nothing Negitive was said about Islam....That told me everthing I needed to know.
Should I publicly renounce my reversion?
Can i do it here or is there a minimum number of people that have to see it?
Should I go to the local Mosque and do it there right in the middle of thier head banging session?
WHAT SHOULD I DO ???
I STILL FEEL DIRTY...
Take a nice hot shower.
I hear warm water and soap will wash the islam right offa ya.
Eisenhund -
I do that already... so maybe the few thousand showers since then has worked.. Thank you :)
ANOTHER BOMB IN TURKEY JUST REPORTED
All I gotta say is just wait until Robert's Mo' book comes out. My prediction is lots of appearances on Fox and CNN and Glenn Beck show. I predict denial of service attacks on this website. I predict Muslim conniption fits so explosive that Dougie Hopper's beanie gets blown off his bald skull.
Can we pipe the Ten Commandments into the cells of Muslim prisioners 24/7.??? If they are serving a ten year sentence, they would come to know the words of a true GOD.
"ANOTHER BOMB IN TURKEY JUST REPORTED"
Not my choice of stuffing, but whatever floats your dhow.
I too, was hoping to hear Centanni and Wiig to denounce islam. I sat there for an entire hour waiting for them to talk about that, and nothing. I think they would have done the world a favor by publicly saying islam is an evil cult.
Should I publicly renounce my reversion?
What for? Did you knowingly convert to islam publicly in the first place? Or were you duped privately?
Can i do it here or is there a minimum number of people that have to see it?
Why do you have to prove anything to anyone? If this is a matter between you and God -- the issue is already settled between the two of you.
You never really wanted to convert from Christianity to islam in the first place; you did not ask to be converted according to what you've said; so I don't think a conversion actually took place -- unless you knowingly and wantingly attended muslim ceremonies and worship services.
If you say therefore that you are a Christian -- than the matter is between you and Christ; but it doesn't sound like there is even an issue to be concerned with here.
Should I go to the local Mosque and do it there right in the middle of thier head banging session?
You'll probably be arrested for criminal trespass, harassment, and maybe even a hate crime. Given the islamic tendency to lie, I do not see how such a visit would serve any useful purpose.
WHAT SHOULD I DO ???
I STILL FEEL DIRTY...
You may was the outside all you want and still feel defiled internally. Perhaps, you should sue the owner for harassment and mental anguish.
Believe me, they would not hesitate to go after you in court if the shoe was on the other foot!
Wittness -
Please take with .. a pinch of Salt !
Churchill1938,
Go ahead and infiltrate. Just to prove that your a good Muslim, "marry" four of the prettiest Pakistani women you can find. It's okay, it will keep them from breeding jihadists and once you officially declare yourself an apostate, the marriages would all be disolved anyway.
However, they might get suspicious when you insist that your new brides all be adults.
How pathetic- to force conversion to Islam at gun point. Why are so many people deceived in the world by this demonic occult?
Provoslavni -
i think my wife would disagree..
But what the hell.. you only die once..
Anyway .... i dont think my Infiltration would be successful as my face would constantly be in disgust mode. I suppose i could tell them i was born with that facial expression.
Vertical Sewers with Domes and Minarets comes to mind !
"In other words, if you accept Islam, you may keep your land and property, but if not, Muhammad and the Muslims would confiscate it."
Probably this was a good part of the rationalization and game plan of the few Arab Muslims that owned vast tracts of land in "Palestine" when they sold so much land to the Zionists at top dollar (so-to-speak) prior to 1948. They intended to take the land back by force in the first Arab-Israeli war (5/1948). They waned to eat their cake and have it too. The Arab-Muslim land owners intended to sell their land and confiscate it too, but things didn't turn out as planned-they rarely do.
(I hope Poetess approves the last line as doggerel.)
Wiig also mentioned that one of his captors said all of the problems of the West could be solved if the West just accepted Islam.
The only negative thing Centanni said was about the ugly track suits they made them wear, which I found somewhat bizarre. Who knows, both might do well as Muslim journalists.
There was a time when standing up for your faith was the right thing to do. The two reporters would be Christian Martyrs, and role models for all of us who believe in our faith in God, and Jesus Christ. I understand that thioughts may wander when a gun is pointed to your head, but isn't that the point of having faith in your maker?
"I too, was hoping to hear Centanni and Wiig to denounce islam." -- freewoman above.
If you knew what types of biased Leftist journalists they were, you could have saved yourself that hour of hoping:
Centanni and Wiig themselves said after their release:
"I hope that this never scares a single journalist away from coming to Gaza to cover the story because the Palestinian people are very beautiful and kind-hearted...The world needs to know more about them. Don't be discouraged.” Wiig reiterated these sentiments: “My biggest concern really is that as a result of what happened to us foreign journalists will be discouraged from coming to tell the story and that would be a great tragedy for the people of Palestine…You guys need us on the streets, and you need people to be aware of the story.”
These two are not news reporters; they are propaganda activists for the Palestinian cause.
I too watched the hour with Wiig and Centanni, and was more than surprised by what was not said.
Wiig stated that they asked him about his understanding of Jesus was? ...and, Wiig said "that he really didn't know much about Islam, would you tell me about it"
Centanni seemed truly shaken by the whole process too. He seemed to be very humbled by the event, and very glad to be alive.
Paging Dr. Spencer,
Do you know if anyone has ever done a complete Arabic to Hebrew -and- Hebrew to Arabic comparison between the Qu’ran and the Hebrew Bible and come up with a list of differences between Islam and Judaism?
I mean, the real simple and hard differences.
Both don't eat bacon, pork chops or Baby-back Ribs.
The Jews don't practice humiliation, pedophilia or rape...
The Muslims do practice violence, hatred and decapitation; all "in the name of their 'Al Lah'."
I am serious - because they claim an understanding of the Psalms, the Gospels, Mary and Jesus - but at the sametime the Qu'ran has errant statements like "Abraham was neither a Jew or Christian"
Since Abraham walked the earth roughly 1900 years before the birth of Jesus Christ, I find this as odd a statement, to have in this 'book' that wasn't in text until the late 1800's and from a 'faith' that didn't start until the mid 600's!!!
Why the need to state that Abraham isn't a Jew?
Abraham was the father of Faith, not a specific religion! What am I missing here?
Is there a listing of the farse's of Mohammad's Islam verses the Judaic/Christian Bible?
Do you know which texts in the Bible that the Muslim claim have been "tampered" with? And, why they claim to be the "one and only true faith"?
THANKS AGAIN for JihadWatch and your books!
KnightHawk
My biggest fear (well, one of them, at any rate) is that more reporters will go to Gaza, Judea, and Samaria and give these sociopathic anarchists more attention than they merit.
They get enough good press from the know-nothings around the world that only regurgitate the Arab propaganda they've swallowed for decades.
Those who anxiously await Centanni and Wiig’s public renouncement of their imposed oath to mohammedism should remember that their captors took possession of their personal documents exposing both Centanni and Wiig (as well as those close to them) to further threat well beyond the terror endured in Gaza.
I am happy enough to see they both came through this terrorizing ordeal alive and well. Jennifer Griffin and Eli Fasman (Fox bureau chief) are truely amazing heros.
Perhaps the Israeli drone (mentioned by Jennifer Griffin in the interview) apparently flying overhead during Friday’s 2 a.m. “Dons of Gaza delegation” provided adequate intel for special delivery packages to be dropped from the heavens on each and every Gaza don in the near future.
In shallah.
Wittness -
Please take with .. a pinch of Salt !
Posted by: Churchill1938 at August 30, 2006 08:59 AM
Okay, if you join me in a dance around a fairy circle, I'll throw three pinches of slat over my left shoulder and plant a rabbit's foot in an old cemetary near Bagdad, on the first full moon that occurs at midnight.
Posted by SandMonkey: "Why are so many people deceived in the world by this demonic occult?"
I too have wondered the same.
I am not a religious person myself, but anyone can see stark differences between 'natural law', the golden rules, the 10 ommandments that all major faiths essentailly share and follow conrated with the sanctified killing, stealing, lying and terrorism which muslims follow.
The cililized world may do these things because it deviates from its religions, but islam does these things because it is a religious duty.
islam is pure evil. I am glad I have been able to learn why it is so evil from books by Robert Spencer and Serje Trifkovic. And that it is because it is a purely man made religion created to meet the base desires of one very sick and twisted man known as Mohammed the prophet.
Why do people today follow islam? I can only imagine it is for the same reason the civilized world has its share of junkies, wino's and crackheads--some people just cannot control their base desires appetites and evil appetites. And they find a religion, islam, willing to fulfill this.
Conversion??
Are we using a misnomer here??
To convert to something, you had to be something to begin with.
At the risk of being labelled a fanatic, let me continue.
If what you was of little value, then flipping to Islam was no big deal. Maybe they had little to renounce. Maybe they were only likewarm in their belief.
Just because one goes to church (or whatever), this does not follow that that person is a believer with his heart, and thus willing to die for his faith.
Centanni/Wiig do not need anyone's forgiveness for doing whatever they had to do to remain breathing - I'd hope anyone in a like situation would do the same without hesitating one little bit.
(You could convert me to Satanism if you liked - just dont kill me!)
You had to expect the crap to start piling up when Anita Wiig, the wife , the day before the release told the TV audience how loyal her husband was to the Pali cause...well -I guess she'd say anything while her husband was being held captive....
The distasteful part of Centanni's performance came in his first interview after he was released: Centanni explaining that the Palestinians were a 'beautiful, kind-hearted, loving people. . .' and that they 'needed to get their story told...'( - you know, the story of how the Jews should be destroyed and Israel cast into the sea...)
--yuch! He had just been delivered from those "kind- hearted" Palestinians and he certainly knows that far from being "beautiful people" they are in reality murderous scum guilty of blowing up innocent terror victims - yet he still comes out with that PC mendacity (!!!!). . .
My kindest interpretation of those stupid remarks? it was a little leftover Stockholm Syndrome - not yet purged from his system...
Still, it left me with a distinctly nauseous feeling...
By his own admission ("telling the Palestinian story"= writing propaganda for Hamas) Centanni's journalistic objectivity about middle east news is forever suspect...
All these two news reporters have to do is simply in the privacy of their homes back in the USA simply go back to what they were before. they will be safe.
All these two news reporters have to do is simply in the privacy of their homes back in the USA simply go back to what they were before. they will be safe.
So their captors wanted them to write a letter to President Bush saying that Islam is not bad, Muslims are not bad so release all the Muslims. Um...they...Muslims...just kidnap 2 men at gun point, hitting them on the head with guns if they talk or putting a boot on their faces, interrogating them with a sabre and 2 ak46s in the room, hurt them, etc. and we are supposed to believe Islam isn't bad?
Unbelievable. Well, breaking news, their terrorist criminal ***actions*** speak louder than their words.
Whether Centanni and Wiig converted willingly or unwillingly isn't the point. The point is that the Muslims have now marked them so that they believe they are entitled to kill them if they go against their supposed Islamic faith. They have been effectively subdued, only they don't seem to know that. They can go on their merry way thinking that everything is back to normal but since their faces have been plastered all over the planet and all Muslims with TV or Internet access know who they are and know they are now Muslims, it will be every Muslim's jihadic duty to snuff them if they don't practice.
Here we have two highly educated western journalists who didn't bother to do their homework and gain some knowledge about the enemy they were interviewing. (Mental note to self: study Islamic practices, gain knowledge about what you are likely in for, don't leave home without it.) Now they don't even know that they don't even know and will continue as pawns to be used by the Islamists until such time as the Islamists decide that they don't need them anymore and then invoke their right to kill them because they are not practicing their religion, (that they don't know anything about in the first place!)
A lie is a lie, and Islam is built on a foundation of lies. This wouldn't be so much of a problem for us if our own leaders weren't so eager to take those lies and run with them. Here's to Truth and spreading it in every corner. Thanks Robert, for being a beacon of light in our dark, dark world. The Truth will set us free.
Please don't bash the reporters. Any sane man in their situation would have done the same. (Not talking about fighters here, and I think that even they would have thrown their lives away by not reciting those things, and these people did not even know what the hell was going on. They never read about islam or visited this site.)
As for publicly stating about leaving islam, they never were islamic. Converts to islam are required to destroy and kill immediately, and they are watched. So, reciting some garbage does not make one a muslim. Acting like one, it does.
As for the 'palis being kind people' part : I think the guy is scared out of his wits. If he is not having a session with a shrink, he is hitting the bottle to get some sleep. These guys have been through a nightmare (they are, after all, journalists, and are bound to have seen the beheading videos. Just think, how terrified you and I would have been if we were abducted by these "small minority", what these guys believed in.)
I think that all that these guys wanted was to live.
SonnyBoy wrote:
("telling the Palestinian story"= writing propaganda for Hamas)
Here's one that appeared in the Idaho Statesman on Sunday, August 27th and he isn't Hamas... For sure, he is full of Hatred and Propaganda.
KnightHawk
Terrorist state
In 1948 a large contingent of Zionists decided to form a new country. Using the old Jewish myth that the land around Jerusalem was promised to the Jews by God (YHWH), these Zionists moved into the 2,000-year-old region known as Palestine and began murdering, raping, torturing and bulldozing Palestinians out of their homes. Grossly outgunned, the rightful owners of Palestine (the Palestinians) valiantly tried to fight for their homes but their rocks and sticks were no match for the tanks and war planes of the Zionists. The Palestinians were forced to accept this new country called Israel even though it displaced half their people and starved the rest. But that wasn't enough for the Zionists. Even after signing onto a U.N. resolution calling for their immediate withdrawal from territory they had further encroached on, (Gaza, West Bank) in 1967, the Zionists have continued to expand into Palestine, terrorizing and murdering every step of the way.
The American taxpayer shells out the equivalent of $1,000 per year to every adult Israeli because of their incredibly powerful lobby and our cowardly Congress. In return we get hatred. It's time to stop supporting the terrorist state of Israel.
Gerald Mackie, Boise
I wonder whether all the Centanni/Wiig critics here saw the same interview I did last night? One of Wiig's comments:
Do any of you have the impression that they are still Muslims? Do either of them have Khalid or Yaqoob on their passports? Neither did I get from the interview that they endorse the comments to Bush that they were forced to read out at gunpoint.What was revealing (actually confirmed what I already suspected) was that US perceptions of Islam seemed to bother their thugs more than the ostensible aspirations to a Pali state, or even driving Israel into the Mediterranean. As for their comment that they were Palis, not Iraqis (when the conversation turned to Zarqawi's videos (never mind the fact that Zarqawi was Pali)), it seems that in their minds, there are good abductors and there are bad abductors.
For those who are following this, tells us what we need to know.
"There is no compulsion in self preservation."
Islam is an exclusive religion, no matter what the muslims say. It's exclusively for morons.
Churchill
In which country did this happen - Pakistan, or UK, or US?
arjun.sevak-
"These guys have been through a nightmare..."
You bet. I'm sure these two said "we better play Stockholm Syndrome with these guys or we will be like two chickens running around without our heads". I think the two reporters should be given a pass on this. They have suffered unjustly enough.
arjun.sevak-
"These guys have been through a nightmare..."
You bet. I'm sure these two said "we better play Stockholm Syndrome with these guys or we will be like two chickens running around without our heads". I think the two reporters should be given a pass on this. They have suffered unjustly enough.
"I hope that this never scares a single journalist away from coming to Gaza to cover the story because the Palestinian people are very beautiful and kind-hearted...The world needs to know more about them."
LOL...how many times have we heard how "beautiful and kind hearted the Palestinian people are".That's a phrase right out of the liberal playbook. Palestinians are "beautiful" and "kind hearted" like Islam is a "religion of peace".
"They discussed how the problems of the Muslim world and the west could be solved if the west converted to Islam… then it got sinister,”
I took this to mean something completely different and disturbing. While Wiig's concern for his friend was admirable, it sounds like he completely dismisses the threat to the West. Both of these guys had a chance to set the record straight from the safety of a New York studio last night and move the debate forward.
I can't help but compare and constrast them with the American airmen in Iraq and Vietnam who beat themselves bloody before they were scheduled to be used in a propoganda film.
I think charity is all well and good, and there has to be some variability in expectation for the mentally challenged person versus the Pope in a similar situation. And we do not know enough about their prior professed convictions, and their original knowledge base of Islam to discuss the full significance of their initial shahada. If we had this information, then we could and should discuss the implications regarding their character.
But this is not an insignificant event, especially from a theological perspective. Would it be acceptible if an entire nation succombed so? How about prior generations who fought for us to enjoy the permissive and tolerant culture we have now?
Reposting: Whether or not their "conversion" was excusable rests entirely on their foreknowledge of the significance of the act, how involved was their acquiesance, and what with afterknowledge they subsequently profess about it.
If this was just a subterfuge by hostages, then let them say it. Then they can apologize for being so damn ignorant of Islam and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict they've reported on for years.
I think charity is all well and good, and there has to be some variability in expectation for the mentally challenged person versus the Pope in a similar situation. And we do not know enough about their prior professed convictions, and their original knowledge base of Islam to discuss the full significance of their initial shahada. If we had this information, then we could and should discuss the implications regarding their character.
But this is not an insignificant event, especially from a theological perspective. Would it be acceptible if an entire nation succombed so? How about prior generations who fought for us to enjoy the permissive and tolerant culture we have now?
Reposting: Whether or not their "conversion" was excusable rests entirely on their foreknowledge of the significance of the act, how involved was their acquiesance, and what with afterknowledge they subsequently profess about it.
If this was just a subterfuge of hostages, then let them say it. Then they can also apologize for being so damn ignorant of Islam and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict they've reported on for years.
By all of this I am still struck by the fact that you have a glaring example of how the Jihadists practice their beliefs, and how apologists reframe things in a way that the religion was once again "hijacked" or misconstrued. Of course, I could care less how a Western academic or egghead characterizes Islam and am more concerned with how it is actually practiced and implemented in that part of the world.
I'm feeling beautiful and kindhearted!
Infidel Pride
It happened in LONDONISTAN
Forced conversion? My guess is that the average Muslim-from-the-womb has no understanding of his or her "religion."
They memorize the Koran without understanding it. (P.S. How could they since it's an incomprehensible mish-mash?)
There are Christians who are taught in Sunday School to memorize Bible verses on about the same level.
There are Christians who, because Ma & Pa brought them to church for Baptism once upon a time, but rarely afterward, haven't got a clue about their Faith. Not to mention how many "Christians" never read the Bible or go to church?
Some believe that if a person simply says "I accept Jesus as my personal Savior" they are irretrievably "saved" regardless of the subsequent choices they make.
Francis Parkman (an eminent New England Protestant historian) wrote a magnificent book in the 1800's about the Jesuits amongst the Indians in North America. He mentioned how the Franciscans in Canada would enter a village, sprinkle holy water over the "savages" whilst saying the "correct formula," and then promptly send word to Rome that they had converted so-many-hundreds. Rome, in turn, would congratulate them and send them funds.
Meanwhile, the Jesuits (usually the bad guys), were spending their time living with the Indians, learning their languages, and SERVING them - as servants. All so that they could eventually bring them to Faith in a true and meaningful way. Their reports sent to Rome often went something like this: "Haven't converted any yet, but we're working on it." No funding.
As for Islam, all one has to do is mumble the words in Arabic to the effect that "there is no God but the Moon-rock and the Pedophile Murderer is his prophet." That's it.
Sometimes fundamentalism is fundamentalism, and mumbling words is just mumbling words.
It's not a war between religions. It's som,ething much more insidious - worthy more of the genre of a sci-fi novel! It's the Cavemen against the civilized world.
As for me and my house, There is no God but the Most Holy Trinity. And MoHAMmed was nothing more than a deranged, mentally disturbed, overly sexed warlord. His message has nothing to do with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, much less the Incarnate Word of God!
Amen.
(And I hope I would make the same profession of Faith regardless of what Ali Oop was pointing at my head.)
Obviously to muslims that verse only menas they cannot be converted, it is permissible for them to force nonbelievers to convert. Again islam uses twisted pretzel logic to justify their actions.
If they wanted them to renounce Islam, perhaps they needed to hold rifles on them during the interview.
So they STILL will not stand up for Jesus publically. Their lack of action it all.
Churchill1938:
You let a Paki scream in your face and fire you because you were a Christian--in your own country? You let Pakis slip booze to young Hindu girls and molest them? You let them curse Jews and Christians to your face regularly and call you dhimmie?
And you're telling people all this because?
Churchill, why not bringing the thing to a lawyer?
Firing you because you were not muslim after a fake conversion?
Sounds to me food for lawyers.
Churchill-
As I read your story I kept thinking of someone I knew 20 years ago who was in a so-so car accident, who told by-standers not to call a hospital, but to call his lawyer and tell his lawyer to get to the site of the accident right away. He gave them the number of his lawyer while he lay sprawled out on the street. He kept a cool head under the circumstances. If what you describe is true, it was a situation begging for a conference with your lawyer.
Thanks guys ..
Everything was very hush hush and i only became aware of everything (inc what they were doing to the hundu girls), the day i left. On that day i found everything out About what they meant by dhimmi and the fact that they really thought they had converted me and that they were not joking etc etc ... This was because a young paki lad that just started working there told me what they were up to. i then told these men that i was not as muslim as they thought they had made me and also that i would investigate what was told to me about thier acts with the girls. they pre-empted me and went to the owners complaining. i had no evidence just a young lad who was frightened for himself and was summarily fired. i did get my own revenge and they are no longer in business. but thats another story.
So forgive me if prior to 9\11 i was ignorant like so many others.
I also watched the Fox interview last night and struck by two points. It seemed from what Steve C. and Olaf W. retold, the captors were much more interested in defending Islam and in making their captives accept Islam and that in the issue of an independent Palestinian state. I also remember that the Muslim thugs told the Fox reporters that they were very upset about the term, "Islamo-fascist," being used more and more in the West. Accordingly, I will use that term whenever I can fit it into a conversation.
I saw a speech by Rumsfield on FoxNews last night and he used the term repeatedly.
Churchill1938:
Of course you didn't know better 5 years ago, but I think you still have a duty to warn people against those Paki rapists. If you don't have any evidence you can give the police, then you should still warn people against using this
conference hall. What's the name and location of it?
Make public their names and adresses as well as the owners whereever it is legal and safe for you to do it. Inform the local Hindu and Jew communities, BNP activists, whoever is involved in planning weddings and other activities in that conference hall etc.
“There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256).
This is a religion of lies. They say two things about almost anything. "Religion" there means every other religion, we could note.
Islam rarely wins converts from anything but forced conversions. That is why you don't see Muslim missionaries.
Our idea of a martyr (and Christians invented the term, a Greek word from the New Testament) is someone who dies for the faith. As some have pointed out this is often from Muslims, Communists, and other wicked people who ask them to renounce their faith or die... their idea of "martyr" is a mass murderer who operates in their modern human sacrificing cult.
The Koran and related "scriptures", besides being a slew of stolen works and largely derived beyond direct plagarism... is ludicrous. Absurd. These things are the scribbling of savages. Unlike the Bible no one quotes constantly from it because of the force and elegance of the wording -- they quote it for the sheer dogmatic fanaticism of what is written. There is no wisdom nor even reasoning inherent within -- it is chaotic and senseless.
The Islamists largely have created a kingdom which stretches from West North Africa all across Asia to the islands of the SouthEast. They have done this by abject barbarity.
The only inherent "sense" of Islam which has kept these countries together is the diabolical perversion of Judaeo-Christian Scripture into a cult which justifies murder, lying, rape and every manner of wickedness into a religion purporting that these things are wanted by God.
They took the pagan human sacrificing cults of old and simply exchanged Baal with God. That is, it is blasphemous to the core.
All of this may be evidenced by the utter failings of their cursed lands. If we consider the discovery of oil there as their singular claim to "success", we should note the only reason they today have this oil is so they might raise their heads to be brought down.
l am disappointed that these two reporters, journalists were not least bit critical of those monsters who abducted them. they are plain to see appologists, with no backbone. some will say, well they were scared, a gun to their head, but where is the courage? After their relaese they sure made tracks to Israel for safety. well l hope any journalists realizes that their lives are at the risk by these islamic monsters. enter Gaza at your own risk.
Brother Abdul's Conversion to Islam - Video
Mary Rose:
Islamo-fascist Islamo-fascist
Islamo-fascist Islamo-fascist
Islamo-fascist Islamo-fascist
I feel better now.
Actually, Centanni and Wiig both commented how they have high respect for Islam and the Palestinians, encouraging reporters to not give up on reporting in Gaza and elsewhere.
Maybe they should be branded. Better yet:
"..."Both the inquisitor and the bishop were to be present. The prisoner was to be shown the instruments of torture and urged to confess. Upon refusing he was to be stripped and bound and again entreated to confess and to be promised mercy if he did. He/she would stand bound and naked in the presence of grim, implacable friars and watch the irons heated, the pulleys of the rack tested, the bearings of the wheel greased in preparation for their use on his own bones and body."
From:"Inquisition- A Bilingual Guide to the exhibition of Torture Instruments presented in various European Cities-by Robert Held- Qua d'Arno, Publisers/Editorial, Florence, Italy, 1985
At Matanzas Bay in St. Augustine, FL. French Heugonauts were systematically beheaded by the hundreds in front of their families for refusal to accept Catholicism as recently as 300 years ago. That isn't ancient history by any means.
If Religion Wins, We All Lose.
Islam rarely wins converts from anything but forced conversions. That is why you don't see Muslim missionaries. -NovaRocketMan
Every muslim is a missionary.
Read about the Takfir.
Conversions seem to be a simple process. Talk about what a simple beautiful peaceful religion it is to the college age person. All that poetry. Hypnotic really. Throw in some moral equivalancy, like Look how evil Christians are, the crusades, etc. Say the words, ITS EASY. No need to study it yet. All religions are the same really anyway, right?. Join the club. Just do the rituals. We'll help you get them right. You'll feel at home. After all the goal is peace for the world, kubayaa, doesn't that sound good? Please look at all that respect and modesty. Mohammad never hurt a fly, except in self defence of course. And you don't have to be a preacher or a nun so you can still have family life. Wow. Easy.
Just don't look too close yet.
You just might misunderstand it. Most people do. You have to ask the imam. You can't really understand it on your own. You have to know Arabic, study harder, pray harder....... well it really is very complicated, but don't worry you're part of the umma now and you can't leave....
Lots of conversion going on in China, South America, Mexico, Philipines and all over Europe and the US.
And universities and jails near you.
Evidence in the Madrid train bombings points to the participation of a new breed of Islamic holy warrior, unfettered by many of the religious and ideological constraints that defined Islamic terrorism in the past.
These Islamist warriors -- schooled in the North African doctrine known as Takfir wal Hijra and trained by Afghan veterans of al Qaeda -- think, recruit and operate differently from traditional Islamist networks. For Europe, that makes the threat particularly acute. The Takfir movement is strongest in Morocco and Algeria, the primary sources of Muslim immigration to Western Europe. Takfiri theorists openly advocate using immigration as a Trojan horse to expand jihad, or holy war.
KeepItStupid:
Is there a Catholic or Protestant inquisition being conducted today? Are there any Heugenots being decapitated?
Hegenots don't even exist. If you have to delve into the past to demonize modern Christianity, you've already lost the argument.
Christians spend more time, money, and effort on helping the needy than the rest of the world combined, and they do it more effectively. They don't murder or oppress ANYONE. They're completely honest about their beliefs.
Atheists murdered more than 100 million people in the last century, and consigned countless more to misery and oppression. How many atheist charity organizations are there? How effective are they? Organized atheist organizations lie as a matter of policy.
If atheism wins, we all lose.
Jeff Bargholz,
Amen.
KnightHawk
This guy is an idiot (Gerald Mackie, Boise
). He doesn't even have his facts straight.
- Zionism began in the 1870s.
- Zionism was not a religious movement, It was secular. Religion doesn't factor in.
- The Arabs are the ones who fled Israel in 1948 because the attacking Arab armies promised them that after the Jews were butchered by the other Arab/Muslim countries, they could return to a Jew-free region.
- Palestine is not a 2,000 year old region. The region is older than that, going back to Syria, Bablyon, Israel, Judah, and Canaan.
- There was no rape by the Jews. The Arabs in Palestine created that lie hoping to attract the armies of some of the neighboring countries to fight against Israel in her war for independence.
- He neglects to mention that Israel was a creation of the UN. One that the Arabs/Muslims did not respect.
- The term "Palestinian" does not appear until after the 1967 Israeli-Arab war. During 1948 for example, you see the terms "Jews of Palestine" and "Arabs of Palestine". Look at old news reels and newspapers.
- During 1948-1949, Israel did not have the military might that she has today. The Arabs were better armed than the Israelis. Most Israeli troops were recent immigrants from Europe, without any military training.
- Israel's capture of the West Bank in 1967 was a response to Jordan shelling West Jerusalem after Israel attacked Eypt. Israel had lauched a pre-emptive strike against Egpyt because she feared the Arabs would attack her. You can thank the communist Soviet Union for helping provoke a regional war.
-Muslim hate comes straight from the Koran and Hadith. As long as we are not Muslim, they will hate us period.
I have to wonder if he is just a far gone leftist or if he is a Muslim using a western name.
BarFly:
I guess you can't come up with a strong argument so you have to resort to the namecalling again.
Inquisition today? I don't know. Niether do you. And your information seems limited in scope, so I think we'll leave it at "Who knows for sure." Heugonauts being decapitated? Nope. That only happened in this land several hundred years ago. Maybe 30 times your age ago? Delving into a religion's past to demonize it loses the argument? I've heard stupid things said, but that really takes the cake on JihadWatch! I don't think you thought thru your post very well, ace.
Christians spend more... blah blah blah. Site your source material here and I'll be a taker. Til then STFU.
Christians don't murder or oppress ANYONE? I try not to laugh in you dumb face. They are completely honest in their beliefs? What kind of drugs are you on?
Atheists....blah blah blah. So what? Because one does not believe in religion does not make one an atheist.
Are you really this stupid all the time. BarFly?
I almost forgot:
If Relgion Wins, We All Lose.
( This bumper sticker will most definitely NOT win you the party nomination but that in itself is a good thing )
Centanni and WIIG have been guests of honor on a couple of Fox programs, like Studio B..
What interests me is what is not said, and what is not asked. They are never asked about their "conversion" nor do they talk about it, and I wonder if they realize they are dead meat if they renounce their conversion..
It is conceivable that since they make their money and fame covering the mid east, that they would not
renounce their conversion.
If I were they I would find a different way to earn a living, but my IQ is probably 20 points higher than theirs.
Whoever accused them of being liberals, should take a deep breath, Fox is the epitomy of "conservativism" and is rightfully criticized for being a biased organ of the right.. so I doubt that Fox would hire bleeding hearts to do their reporting for them.. why pay money to people whose work you won't publish.
There are no winners in the battle for god, and if religion wins Jeff Bargholz we all lose.
It is by reason and science that man and society advances, faith (religion) is the antithesis of reason and science.. in fact it is it's enemy.
Faith is blind belief, which is unreason and illogic..
Epitomized with Muslims especially, to wit circular reasoning:
Q. Why do you believe in the Qur'an.
A. It is the word of Allah
Q. How do you know it is the word of Allah.
A. It says so in the Qur'an.
Qur'an is the word of Allah because it says so in the Qur'an is the word of allah because it says so in the Qur'an is the word of Allah... ad infinitum ad nauseum.
And you will find the same mentality and believes in a lot of Christians as regards the Bible.
FYI: Hitler was a Catholic and the Commies didn't kill people in the name of atheism, there's is an economic ideology, not a religious one.
And most charities are areligious (such as the Red Cross).
And you said: "Organized atheist organizations lie as a matter of policy." Man you are nuts, but one thing you are proving is that all religious believers are the same, and all are self righteous and dangerous fanatics.
Sansantiago, I agree with much of your post. But I must take issue with one point--you said:
Some believe that if a person simply says "I accept Jesus as my personal Savior" they are irretrievably "saved" regardless of the subsequent choices they make.
.............
I have a number of relatives who consider themselves "born again". I disagree with them on a lot of issues (no offense to anyone on list who so identifies). However, they all stress that one must be completely sincere in accepting Jesus.
Do people just mouth the words, sometimes? Sure. I'm sure some people also do this because a friend has become born again, or they convert in prison, etc. But I don't know of *any* born-again Christian who would consider this an actual conversion.
And I don't think I have ever heard of a coerced born-again conversion--certainly I don't know of any Church that would condone such a thing. Certainly there were forced conversions to Christianity in the distant past, but nothing at all recent that I know of.
Not every born-again Christian lives anything like an excemplary life, certainly. But the conversion is supposed to be heart-felt, with a desire to let Jesus guide your actions in future.
I realize this is a bit OT, but I felt I had to set the record straight.
And now a word from our chagrinned sponsor:
Certain private grudge-matches must take place outside the confines of this website. If one feels compelled to express his deeply-held beliefs about Last Things, about Spiritual Searches, about Atheism and various versions of Christianity, about What Works for You, do so -- but please, not at a site which would like to focus the attention of visitors on the topics that give their name to the website: JihadWatch, DhimmiWatch. Not too much to ask.
Inquisition today? I don't know. Niether do you. And your information seems limited in scope, so I think we'll leave it at "Who knows for sure." Heugonauts being decapitated? Nope. That only happened in this land several hundred years ago. Maybe 30 times your age ago? Delving into a religion's past to demonize it loses the argument? I've heard stupid things said, but that really takes the cake on JihadWatch! I don't think you thought thru your post very well, ace.
Posted by keepitsimple
simple, moral equivalency arguments are cowardly cop-outs, especially when one attempts to place islam and Christianity in the same league. Your information was carefully chosen to demonize a religion that abandoned inhumane practices centuries ago, practices never sanctioned by Christianity to begin with. All of today's heinous atrocities committed by rabid muslims are sanctioned by islam.
I don't care what you believe or don't believe, but you know damn well that today's Christians do not torture, behead, or forcibly convert people. And if you're the religious authority you seem to think you are, you also know that islam is the most diabolical ideology to ever curse mankind. To imply that it is no worse than Christianity is the epitome of "stupid."
Hi there... I've been monitoring your site for a while, and I love your coverage.
I have all of the video clip segments from Greta's firs interview last night (the 29th) at my site. I don't see a t/b capability here, so I'm just going to post it in this comnent (along with another from today's Studio B):
http://www.msunderestimated.com/2006/08/29/steve-olaf-on-greta-talking-about-their-ordeal-videos/
http://www.msunderestimated.com/2006/08/30/sheps-interview-with-steve-olaf-greta-after-the-show-video/
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Ms.U
People!! For crying out loud lighten up on the two guys. I haven't read every post on this topic so maybe it has already been addressed. But do ya just suppose that maybe those two had to sit holed up with those assholes for two weeks, with visions of the half dozen others that had their heads hacked off. Anyone would convert to most anything under the same set of circumstances. I seriously doubt if either one will be tripping off to a Mosque anytime soon. For Christ sake, get over it.
Hugh:
I don't recall stating any opinions in my comment.
KnightHawk asked:
"Do you know which texts in the Bible that the Muslim claim have been "tampered" with?"
This question is well-covered in Sir William Muir's "The Coran: Its Composition and Teaching", especially pp.207-239.
Published in 1878 or thereabouts it might be only available at a university library, though I saw a web version earlier this year at a site that appears to be subject to hi-jack attempts:
http://answering-islam.org/Books/Muir/Coran/
Muir, by the way is the sort of man badly needed these days but in very short supply - fluent in Arabic and presumably good enough in Farsi to be Intelligence Officer during the Indian Mutiny and Lieutenant-Governor of North-West Province. A true Orientalist until Edward Said forever perverted the word and the concept.
Nariz,
Nice link. The website you got it from, Nonbeliever.com, "For free thinkers," says it all.
FYI, Hitler was born a Catholic but rejected Christianity as a teenager. He became deeply involved in the occult and practiced paganistic rituals. He believed that he was the reincarnation of Woden. He adopted the swastika as the symbol of the Nazi Party, which was an ancient Nordic magic symbol. He believed that he was a precursor to the Anti-Christ. He was a student of Dietrich Eckhart and under his influence joined the Satanic Brotherhood of Death Society, also known as the Thule Society, in 1919. Some of his associates believed he was possessed. He also believed that Islam provided spiritual sustenance. How do you keep a straight face when you say that Hitler was a Catholic?
It is really irritating to come to this site to search for the truth about Islam and how to combat it and to have to spend time defending one's religious beliefs against those who were some how disappointed by religion and have now become it's bitterest enemies. While we fight and undermine each other here the damned Muslims are talking over our planet.
Churchill,
If you still feel dirty and want us to stand as your witnesses as you renounce this shahada you have accidently performed, then please do so.
After you do, we will hardily say, "Amen!" for you and can then go wash your hands and feel like a new man!!
After a couple of months i did just as you suggested anyway. I wrote to all of thier clients suggesting that they investigate. I also informed the Immigration and Nationality Directorate that thier were illegals working there and they were raided.
This is one of many FIRST HAND experiences i have had in the last 5 years with these loonies. My new line of work shows me things you guys never hear about and you would be shocked. (And i know thats almost impossible).
Just last month they tried to poison a whole towns water supply - all kept hushed up of course as there would be both a panic and huge backlash.
Nariz~ Hitler wanted the Catholic Church destroyed. He had his people re-write the bible. He thought islam was terrific and You Know It.
I'd ask why you are being dishonest but I realize that is a Constant with you.
As I said elsewhere: stay atheist. We don't want your 'conversion.' This Christian doesn't want to see another Torqemada arise.
Churchill1938- Wait for the backlash that is going to hit when people finally find out all that has been hidden from them. All the attempts at mass murder than have been caught in time but not reported. All it's going to take is ONE HIGH SECURITY person to spill the beans.
SusanP:
...if you're the religious authority you seem to think you are, you also know that islam is the most diabolical ideology to ever curse mankind. To imply that it is no worse than Christianity is the epitome of "stupid."
And we are supposed to attribute Islam to a devilish Christian "curse" ?
When the human race begins to accept responsibility for inventions like Islam, YOU might have credibility enough to call any point of view contrary to your own "stupid".
Meanwhile, by placing the blame for Islam on the Christian concept of evil seems petty and narrow. As usual, on the one hand, people like yourself argue " No moral equivalancy" until it's convenient to redefine the nature of Islam. Then its ALWAYS expedient to claim spiritual superiority. Such an irony rarely escapes the "Stupid" among us, myself included.
You cannot win this argument until you accept that religion is a human invention and has nothing to do with an individual's spiritual life.
I've also noticed that arguments over the nature of religion most often end with arguments over intelligence. The brightest among the participants rarely use the word "stupid" to describe religion in general but only on those who are bold enough to question religion's efficacy in general.
Call my opinion stupid all you want.
If Religion Wins, We All Lose.
Centanni said "he has only the highest respect for Islam". He's a reporter. What does that tell you about what views he would report on a particular story?
KeepItStupid:
Pull your head out and you'll see the light.
You need to undergo a forced conversion to reality.
"When the human race begins to accept responsibility for inventions like Islam, YOU might have credibility enough to call any point of view contrary to your own "stupid"."
I pity myself and my ancestors that possibly took part in the crusades for stopping themselves and not exterminate all muslims like it has been done with the innocent DODO.
Other than that I cannot turn back in time otherwise I'd make good use of the chance I am given.
And yes, you are stupid. There's a greater evil, there is no point in fighting the lesser evil. Ubi Maior Minor Cessat.
And yes, take your head of your ass and stop lecturing us on the "evils" of all the other religions. What part of the sentence "one thing at a time" you don't understand?
Islam is simply a man-made, or rather a cult from the enemy himself.
Vid re the Stolkholm Syndrome-
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=792205&ch=61492&src=
AmericaninGermany,
If Islam is an invention of Satan wouldn't that mean Allah is Satan and Mohammed is an anti-Christ?
Yes, Big Daddy. Allah is Satan and Mohammad is his false prophet.
You will know them by their fruits.