Still more on this story. As the violence spreads, it is ever clearer that the "blasphemy" accusation, spurious as it is, is just a pretext. This appears to have been a massacre waiting for an excuse. "Eight Christians burned alive in Punjab," by Fareed Khan for AsiaNews, August 2:
Gojra (AsiaNews) - Pakistani special forces have taken control of the town of Gojra (Punjab) after yesterday’s bloody episode in which at least 8 people - including 4 women and a child of 7 years - were burned alive and 20 others wounded. At least 50 houses of Christians were burned and destroyed and thousands of faithful fled to escape execution. Relatives of the victims refuse to take care of dead bodies and do not want funerals until the culprits are arrested. Some of the killed have been identified: Hamed Masih, 50, Asia Bibi, 20; Asifa Bibi, 19, Imam Bibi, 22; Musa 7; Akhlas Masih, 40, Parveen, 50.
At least 3 thousand Muslims, after they have were incited by local religious authorities, marched to the Christian village Gojra founded 50 years ago. Groups of young Muslims - perhaps from the Sunni group Sipah-e-Sahabaha - with their faces covered started to shoot wildly. The villagers fled, but some were trapped and were killed by the uncontrollable fire unleashed by the mob.
To burn the houses, the militants used a particular fuel, that is difficult to extinguish. According to witnesses, the same fuel was used in the village of Shanti Nagar, burned in February 2007, in the destruction of the village of Sangla Hill (2005); in the burning of the 50 houses of Christians and the two churches on the evening of July 30 in Koriyan near Gojra.
It all started weeks ago with charges of blasphemy against Talib Masih, who is accused of having burned pages of the Koran during a wedding ceremony on July 29 at Koriyan.
On July 30 hundreds of Islamic militants attacked and set on fire the houses of Christians in Koriyan and two Protestant churches, the Church of Pakistan and the New Apostolic Church. According to police, some Christians fired shots against the militants, further fuelling their violent response.
The minister for minorities, Beat Shahbaz, a Catholic, has accused the police of negligence. The local Christians say they have been requesting the protection of law enforcement officers for days because the situation was tense, but have been ignored.
Some Christians argue that although the police were present during the attack at Gojra, the thugs were not apprehended. Other witnesses say that after a while the police tried to stop them, but the militants also attacked the police injuring some....
While we were using IntenseDebate, this article provoked a lot of discussion.
Here are the comments that I preserved.
VAMPIREJACK said - I wonder how long before we start reading these kinds of stories happening in the West?
I can't believe that these things are happening and the Muslims in the West have the audacity to claim that THEY are being persecuted. Talk about projection.
My prayers are with my fellow Christians who have just suffered at the hands of these animals.
GMCCAL said - (quoting) "At least 3 thousand Muslims, after they have were incited by local religious authorities, marched to the Christian village Gojra..."
Incited by local religious authorities.
Mikey? Yom? Muzzi? Were these authorities wrong in their interpretation of islam and inciting this violence?
-CIVILUSDEFENDUS said - Perfectly in accord with islamic teaching.
Totally alien to any other culture or system of law.
-EASTVIEW said - I just checked the comments below. Not a peep out of our resident apologists. It must be because they have been too busy contacting the "religious authorities" in Pakistan about how they have distorted the peaceful teachings of Islam and should henceforth cease and desist from such incitements against Christians.
-GRAVENIMAGE said - At least one of them is on the next thread, Eastview, claiming that the US and the UK have been "committing genocide" in Afghanistan and Iraq.
-SORROW said - Yes, they need to work out their talking points in order to seem more monolithic and moronic in their responses. It reminds me of Charlie Manson followers talking to the press.
-JOCKAIRA said - (quoting) "At least 3 thousand Muslims, after they have were incited by local religious authorities, marched to the Christian village Gojra..."
Muslims in the neighborhood are a really good argument for:
...The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
Anybody who doesn't arm himself is neglecting the lives and well-being of his family and and his neighbors.
Infidels Unite! You have nothing to lose but a bunch of sub-grade moronic human-shaped cockroaches who spend as much time looking for clean toilet rocks as they do in seeking enlightment in mechanistic rote-learned prayer.
OUTOFCONTEXT said - (quoting) " Some of the killed have been identified: Hamed Masih, 50, Asia Bibi, 20; Asifa Bibi, 19, Imam Bibi, 22; Musa 7; Akhlas Masih, 40, Parveen, 50."
Ever notice how they seem to target the young and the females - always with an eye to hastening the demise of the victim population. Very insidious. Not that the elderly get a pass by any means, but given a choice, the Mo's will kill the women and children first. Is is true that there is no word for "chivalry" in Arabic???
TOAST AND MARMALADE said - ...the "religion of violence" strikes again.................what a disgrace that this creed has any legitamacy....".
And here is the next part of the original discussion, as preserved by me.
SENCIT said - The wickedness of these mohammadans knows no bounds. Then we hear them bleating about the 'beauty of Islam' !
I would like to see some sort of reaction from the governments of the West, but the silence will be palpable. Right now, I feel so angry that I think I had better end this comment, before I say something I will later regret!
VAMPIREJACK said - And no doubt the MSM won't touch this story with a bargepole - but if it were 3000 Christians or Jews who did the same thing to the Mozzas.......
-PMK said - Someday someone will give these Muslims a taste of their own medicine and no one will give a rat's behind. Why should we? Speaking for myself, I have no reason to care what happens to any of them. It wasn't always that way, but it is now.
-MRSJ said - Don't faint, the Daily Mail is running the story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article...
-ICESTAR said - This story was in the sunday paper here, not front page mind you, but it was there.
PROFITSBEARD said - The MO-fia don't-a like-a no competition.
Dey must-a be ee-liminated.
Mo's protection racket gotta be protected.
MIKEW said - Islam: Hell's Angels on camels; except Hells Angels are more honorable.
Islam: the Charles Manson Family on acid, speed and in burqas.
ROXANE said - Other then possibly FOX news don't look for this latest round of Muslim atrocities to find their way into our corrupt MSM.
-BOAKAI NGOMBU said - FOX is following this story, but not every development.
PULSAR said - (quoting) "At least 3 thousand Muslims, after they have were incited by local religious authorities, marched to the Christian village Gojra founded 50 years ago."
that is a large armed force to invade a wedding party.....Islams religious war continues....Muslims seem to be using the "allegation" weapon a lot lately as an excuse to attack militarily....but this relavation in nothing new with regards to Islam....The Muslims are playing the "victim card" .... and playing it constantly....
"At least 50 houses of Christians were burned and destroyed and thousands of faithful fled to escape execution..."
Islam...feel the love?
ALWAYSONWATCH said - No doubt, the marauding Moslems were whipped into a frenzy during services at the mosques.
PMK said - (quoting) "The villagers fled, but some were trapped and were killed by the uncontrollable fire unleashed by the mob."
Animals. Islam is a religion of the pack.'
And here is the third part of the original discussion.
HUGH (Hugh Fitzgerald) said - A poster above predicts that the major media will "not touch this story with a ten-foot pole."
But they will. They have. And here's how that Ten-Foot Pole works its magic.
For Bush House, yesteday, the Arab-and-Muslim-infiltrated-and-fatally-influenced BBC World Service, in the self-satisfied voice of Julian Marshall, announced the story as one about "religious riots" even before getting to it, thus preparing the audience's mind. Something like: Muslim mobs attack and burn Christians alive, while some Christians fight back" would not do. So it becomes "religious riots."
And here is the New York (Duranty) Times of August 2, 2009, with its own grotesque headline: "6 Christians killed in riots in Pakistan." The word "riots" without further -- the AP story on which the Times relies might have been titled, to accurately convey the truth, "6 Christians Killed As Muslims Riot in Pakistan" or "6 Christians Killed By Muslim Mobs."
And the story goes on to describe "days of rioting between Christians and Muslims in eastern Pakistan." Why? "Over allegations that a Korean was defiled." Does it sound as if the Christians were "ritoting" or merely trying, hopelessly, to defend themselves against the circumambient Muslim mob, the one that burned alive women and children?
What do you think?
Do you think equally anger and equally ferocious and equally menacing mobs of Christians and Muslims threatened one another, simultaneously, in eastern Pakistan, as the story would have it, or do you think that Muslim mobs attacked Christians without mercy or let-up, and finally some Christians tried to fight back, and for all I know, here and there succeeded?
Which story makes sense? Which story accords with everything you know about the behavior of Muslims in Pakistan toward Christians (and Hindus, and Sikhs, and even sometimes Ahmadis), and which story is merely one more attempt to obscure in the fog not of war but war-reporting, reality?
-JOHN C BARILE replied to Hugh - Moral equivalence run amok.
And rampaging mobs of murderous fanatics defending their deen.
-STEPHENA replied - Now the BBC headlines it's latest report: 'Pakistan Christians die in Unrest'
as if they were not murdered by Muslims, just an unfortunate manifestation of discontent; just one of those things, you know.
With video:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/81798...
-SORROW replied to STEPHENA - Pakistani Christians die from unrest caused by unknown people for unknown reasons?
-CIVILUS DEFENDUS said - Riot, noun: an event where infidels are killed and their property destroyed.
To riot, verb: the act of killing infidels and destroying their property.
-MRSJ said - 'Muslims burn Christians alive in Pakistani city after rumour about a defaced Koran sparked riots'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article...
-DUMBLEDORESARMY said to MRSJ - Mrs J - I clicked on the link. God Bless the Daily Mail for a truthful headline! Write to them and thank them for calling a spade a spade.
-MRSJ told DUMBLEDORESARMY - Done.
-DUMBLEDORESARMY said to Hugh Fitzgerald:
-
Hugh: Here is what the Australian Broadcasting Commission chose to tell us (reproducing, it seems without question, the Reuters spin). It is as bad as the BBC and NYT versions. I have copied it below.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/02/264...
Christians burnt alive in Pakistan violence
Posted Sun Aug 2, 2009 9:10am AEST
Six Christians, including four women, were burnt alive in clashes with majority Muslims in a town in central Pakistan, officials said.
'Tension has been running high between the two communities in Gojra town in central Punjab province over allegations that Christians had desecrated a Koran.
Clashes erupted early on Saturday (local time), with an exchange of fire from the members of the two communities.
Television footage showed burning houses and streets strewn with blackened furniture and people firing at each other from their rooftops.
Shahbaz Bhatti, minister for minorities, said a mob "misled by religious extremists" attacked a Christian neighbourhood and torched dozens of houses.
"We have received six bodies of people who died of burn injuries. They included four women, one man and one child," said Abdul Hamid, a Health Ministry official in the town.
Rana Sanaullah, provincial minister for law, who is also responsible for security matters of Punjab, condemned the attack and said an inquiry had been ordered.
However he said a preliminary investigation showed there was no desecration of the Koran.
- Reuters".
-DUMBLEDORESARMY then added - 'And here is what Reuters *should* have written, had they had any sort of respect for truth.
"Muslim rioters burn Christians in Pakistan"
'Six Christians, including four women, were burnt alive when rioting Muslim mobs attacked the Christian community in a town in central Pakistan, officials said.
'Thousands of Muslims in Gojra town in central Punjab province attacked the Christians, claiming that they had desecrated a Koran.
'The attack started early on Saturday (local time), and included an exchange of gun-fire as some Christians attempted to defend themselves.
'Television footage showed burning houses and streets strewn with blackened furniture and people firing at each other from their rooftops.
Shahbaz Bhatti, minister for minorities, said a mob "misled by religious extremists" attacked a Christian neighbourhood and torched dozens of houses.
"We have received six bodies of people who died of burn injuries. They included four women, one man and one child," said Abdul Hamid, a Health Ministry official in the town.
Rana Sanaullah, provincial minister for law, who is also responsible for security matters of Punjab, condemned the attack and said an inquiry had been ordered.
- However he said a preliminary investigation showed there was no desecration of the Koran.'
Now for part the fourth of the discussion.
SHIVA said - And the christian leaders in the west wine and dine with the moslem clerics in the at inter faith meetings.
LEEVY said - When the MSM covers these atrocities, they equally blame both Christians and Muslims. so you think it was both their fault. they cannot tell the truth! screw the MSM, dont buy their papers or watch their crap on tv!
UNDHIMMI said - And my government still seems to think it's a great idea to fill my country with Pakistanis.
GYMGAL said - Lordy. 3000 of them? holy crap, now that would be one scary image to see marching into your village wouldn't it? Those poor villagers.
All in the name of "religion". Makes me ill.
-HESPERADO said - When French commanders during WW2 enlisted thousands of Moroccan Muslims to help in the liberation of Italy from the Germans and Fascist Italians, those Moroccan Muslims couldn't help themselves and actually attacked the Italian people they were supposed to be liberating, massacring and gang-raping women, girls and boys.
As I wrote in an essay nearly a year ago based on my translation of an Italian study of that event
(“Montecassino 1944, Moroccans run amok”, drawn from the Italian journal Millenovecento, number 14, December of 2003, by Tommaso Baris):
There seems to have been some sense among the perpetrators that they were an invading collective force—e.g., the recollection of one Italian eyewitness: “...they came out from everywhere, seizing all the women that they found and taking them to the woods, coming among us in military columns...” (...passavano in colonna in mieso a nui...) And the description by the author: “The systematic nature of the violence...” (Il carattere sistematico delle violenze...).
During a two-week period, as the author of that study wrote:
"...these Moroccan conscripts used by the French army abandoned themselves to a shocking spate of pillaging, murdering and raping throughout the occupied region, mostly against small groups of persons or isolated individuals, until the order came down to halt the march to Valmontone."
And quoting an eyewitness:
“There could have been thousands of them, they seemed to swarm down from the mountains... from afar they were like ants”, remembers Concetta C. “In the time they passed through, in three days, they made Hell. They were brutish and filthy savages. They wore rings in their noses, wore long robes... Throughout the whole mountain you could hear screams and laments...”
If this is what Muslims do when they are "liberating" a population at the (stupid) invitation of superior Infidel powers, it's no wonder what they do in lands such as Pakistan, Kashmir and Punjab where they feel more nakedly their natural right to be supremacist against those whom they perennially hate.
Think Globally, Pillage Locally
-GRAVENIMAGE said - (quoting another poster) 'Lordy. 3000 of them? holy crap, now that would be one scary image to see marching into your village wouldn't it?;
................................
Just what I was thinking, GymGal. Hardly a "small minority of extremists"--more an invading army.
SHWEDONG said - Well, Mr Dinesh D'Souza and other MSM "authorities" on Islam/RoP, will soon find a justification for these Muslim atrocities, which will put the blame squarely on what the Christians did or didn't do.
Like Hugh has pointed out, the BBC et al are already trying to put the handful of Christians at par with mobs of murderous Muslims consumed by religious frenzy, by portraying the situation as a "riot", which gives the impression of a fight between two groups.
This is typical of Dhimmi media around the world which finds the insane and brutal Jihadic violence completely beyond its comprehension and therefore it has to invent a story that has a semblance of logic.
But a logic that can only be forced by implied moral equivalence between the perpetrator of violence and its victim or by far fetched justifications for the atrocities, however absurd these may be."
Part the fifth of our original discussion.
ABSCEDERE said - Here's what I'm wondering--What part of Chirstian nuptial ceremonials demand the desecration of the Quran, in full, or in part? Is it before or after the exchange of vows? After the exchange of rings? Really, I can't imagine the Qur'an figuring in any part of a Christian wedding.
"Pretext" is right.
JETCAL said - Perhaps the MSM will awaken after some Jihad group takes umbrage and revenge by bombing a major MSM company and creating massive causalities within a media company. It obviously hasn’t worked by doing it to mere little people like NYC, Madrid and London. Obviously, the elite MSM is too well insulated from reality.
EBONYSTONE said - OT
My morning paper carries an article from the AP:
"A Nigerian military official says about 700 people were killed in the northern city of Maiduguri during recent fighting between police and a radical Islamist sect.
"The toll was previously thought to be around 300."
SHIVA said (of the Pakistan story) - The Daily mail has this story up and and for once we can see the MSM not hiding the fact that it was moslems on the rampage
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article...
The question is how long will it stay up before they take it down,
They are running another story that you just cannot make up
An illegal immigrant is on the run after smuggling himself into Britain underneath a coach full of Border Agency officers returning from France.
The immigration officers - whose job is to stop illegal immigrants entering the country - were oblivious to the stowaway hiding between the fuel tank and the chassis of the coach bringing them through the Channel Tunnel until they arrived at their depot in Folkestone.
The man then made his break for freedom, to join the estimated 725,000 other illegal immigrants living here.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1203691/M...
HENNO said - They are all scum and as a previous contributor asked how long before they do it here? - well they have already started its just that people are brainwashed prefering the soma of popstars got talent dancing on ice with their big brother.And of course the bbc (biased broadcasting corporation) tells us not to worry muslims are our friend.
-MRSJ said - "And of course the bbc (biased broadcasting corporation) tells us not to worry muslims are our friends....."
Hardly surprising when the Head of Religious Broadcasting at the BBC is a Muslim: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1180715/B...
IPSOFACTO said - What we need is a reinterpretation of the Christian core texts to create a new hard-hitting religion able to defend itself and create respect among the jihadi barbarians of Islam.
Christianity is adaptable to the realities of the world and the need of the believers. I am not advocating crusades but just wars of self defense - a concept developed by Christian theologians in the middle ages.
Such a revised Christian ethics - no more turning the other cheek - will also be more in line with an ethics based upon rationality. And the Muslims will be terryfied when the former Christian dhimmies strikes back hard.
-SAXONLANDS replied - Ipsofacto,
I believe the fabric of the doctrine of self defense is alive and well in the Judeo-Christian hemispheres. It exists, but I believe it is merely undermined or diluted by that most fashionable of mental diseases, liberalism, and its accompanying ideology European socialisim. Since at its core Liberalism sees truth and by extension ethics and morality as being relative and circumstancial, there is no impetus among the "civilised" world to pressure against these crimes by whatever means.
It is my firm conviction, that the only cure for this mass opiate of Liberalisim is the primordial instinct of survival. Europe has gone through the cycle and needs to experience the concept of total war once again."
And finally:
-IPSOFACTO said
What is wrong with Christianity and its ethics is most clearly demonstrated by the fact, that Christian dhimmies under the yoke of sharia in the Christian lands lost to Islam never made a successful rebellion and created a Christian homeland like the Jews did.
The persecusion of the Jews during the diaspora both in Muslim and Christian lands forced the Jews to change their religious dogmas and bringing them more in line with the ideas from the age of enlightenment.
Out of this grew political Judaism – zionism – with the clear goal of the return of the Jews to their Biblical homeland. In the wake of Holocaust a more determined and hard-hitting version of zionism arose able to realize the old dream because it enjoyed moral support from a majority of countries in the UN.
The Christians in Muslim lands never attempted something similar since the defeat of the crusaders. Even when Europe had absolute political and military power over most of the Middle East at the end of WWI did the Christian dhimmi population form a political movement to reestablish (a part of) their lost Christian lands. Instead they were satisfied and welcomed the milder versions of sharia and dhimmitude forced upon the Muslims by the European powers.
Therefore my conclusion is that Christianity in its present form is unable to defend itself and will perish at the onslaught of the global jihad gaining ever stronger momentum since the Oil Jihad of 1973.
The European liberals (we call them socialists) are responsible for creating moral relativism and historicism, the philosophical foundation for multiculturalism promoted as an attractive political goal. The UN declaration of universal human rights is inconsistent in a number of areas not least because Soviet Union demanded positive and social rights included in order not to vote against. But the fundamental mistake is the claim that people can have rights without fulfilling obligations corresponding to the rights. Obligations must come before any rights to achieve consistency – an error not found in the religions. A universal declaration of human obligations would have send out the right signals so people do not delude themselves into thinking that they can get something no matter how they behave.
What we need is not a total war but a return to the moral values making democracy possible and opholding it – values that must be based upon rationality and logic instead of illusions and delusions.
-DUMBLEDORESARMY told IPSOFACTO - You are arguing that Christian dhimmis under the yoke of Islam never succeeded in freeing themselves? Hey: aren't you forgetting the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Maltese, the southern Italians, the Greeks, the Serbs and the Bulgarians, all of whom lived under the boot of Islam for centuries? They were Christian societies; they had been Christian societies for centuries before Islam came along. But they freed themselves of Islam.
And if you look at the history of the Copts you will find that they did try to fight, and try to free themselves, many times; but after a certain point they were outnumbered. Also, the terrain was against them: outside the narrow Nile Valley there is little or no water, nowhere for a guerilla force to hide and supply itself.
HESPERADO - (quoting Ipsofacto) 'I am not advocating crusades but just wars of self defense"
That's what the Crusades were.
-MRSJ added - And there was never a "holy war" until Muslims introduced the concept to Christians......
-HESPERADO said - And as the 14th century Muslim theologian Ibn Khaldun wrote:
"The other [i.e., non-Muslim] religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defense. It has thus come about that the person in charge of religious affairs is not concerned with power politics at all. Royal authority comes to those who have it, by accident and in some way that has nothing to do with religion. It comes to them as the necessary result of group feeling, which by its very nature seeks to obtain royal authority, as we have mentioned before, and not because they are under obligation to gain power over other nations, as is the case with Islam. They are merely required to establish their religion among their own."
[pages 473 and 480, from the translation by Franz Rosenthal, New York, Pantheon Books, 1958]
The bolded parts clearly imply that Islam is by essence expansionist through offensive war which itself is a fusion of religion and power geopolitics, because this is the righteous mission of Islam.
-PULSAR said - more that once...the Muslims just keep attacking.
PERSIKAS said - The removal of 2 palestinian families from their homes which were then swiftly occupied by Jewish settlers received coverage on bbc - nothing about the killing of Christians by muslms in pakistan though.
AGL said - Inhumane to non-Muslims.
Inhumane to animals too: http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/...
I hope Jihad Watch will show care for these victims too. They need a voice.
-SORROW - That is interesting, since Moslems frequently express an aversion to dogs.
-AGL - I guess aversion does not mean they leave these poor dogs alone. Considering dogs unclean seems to give them license to be as cruel as possible to these poor creatures without remorse without consequence. After all a dog's life is worthless to them.
People who are cruel to animals tend to also be cruel to other people. I remember reading about a police force who began tracking animal cruelty cases because of this link.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” Mahatma Gandhi
Perhaps one can say this about religion too.
http://www.hsus.org/hsi/confronting_cruelty/anima...
-SORROW said - I have no problems with cats or dogs. If a person does, they can simply not own one.
-AGL said - I agree.
Be glad if one's dad won't gas your dogs:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/07/...
"OSAMA BIN LADEN'S son Omar first realized the depth of his father's evil when his beloved dogs were taken away and gassed in a chemical warfare experiment, he says in a new memoir."
That is so messed up on several levels.
-GRAVENIMAGE said - In many cases, what Muslims are expressing is an aversion to treating dogs like a valued member of the family--with affection and kindness. While some Muslims do indeed hate dogs in any instance, that some Muslims would indulge in abusing and exploiting dogs comes as no surprise to me.
And this in England, which is known for its love of dogs! Thanks for posting this, AGL."