Indonesia is often held up as a model of democracy and moderation in Islam. The Christians there know otherwise. Islamic Tolerance Alert from modern, moderate Indonesia: "West Java: denial of religious freedom pushes Christians before the human rights commission," by Mathias Hariyadi for AsiaNews, January 12 (thanks to C. Cantoni):
Jakarta (AsiaNews) - Hundreds of members of the Huria Batak Protestant Christians Group (HKBP) of Bekasi, West Java, streamed before the National Human Right Commission (Komnas Ham) to demand that their right to religious freedom be upheld. They complain that Muslim hard-line groups and their local authorities have forcibly stopped their activities and cancelled their Sunday services.At the end of the meeting between the Komnas Ham and the HBKP, an umbrella organisation for a number of Protestant groups in Indonesia, Rev Palti Panjaitan said he was hopeful that "our requests will be heeded," and that "local authorities would rescind their decision to suspend our activities."
"The decision by Bekasi officials is against the law" and violates fundamental human rights, including freedom of religion. More importantly, it "is contrary to the constitution," Rev Panjaitan insisted.
Worshippers at the HKBP church in Pondok Timur Indah, Mustika Jaya sub-district in East Bekasi, were notified of the decision last Sunday during the liturgical service. The letter ordering them to stop was issued on 31 December, and informed them that they had to suspend services as of 1 January 2010.
The clergyman said he was bitter about the decision because "more than 1,500 people have no place to worship anymore."...
Indonesia - Home to the world's largest Muslim population - good luck!
This is the country where Christian school girls on their way to school get murdered, and beheaded. Their heads then placed on the steps of the school.
How can Christians appeal for their human rights in a Muslim majority country, when Muslims look at them as sub-human?
Just asking.
How can Christians appeal for their human rights in a Muslim majority country, when Muslims look at them as sub-human?
Just asking.
They complain that Muslim hard-line groups and their local authorities have forcibly stopped their activities and cancelled their Sunday services.
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Well, there's the rub—it isn't just "Muslim hard-line groups", as devastating as this might be. *It is the authorities themselves* that are treating non-Muslims like dhimmis, whatever the Indonesian constitution might say.
You see this all over the Muslim world—Christians and other religious minorities attacked and oppressed by those "Muslim hard-line groups", with the authorities either ignoring the crimes *or else joining in*.
In mosy Muslim countries, Infidels know that reporting incidents to the police will only make things worse. What this appearance before the "human rights council" will do is unclear—most likely, it will do nothing, one way or the other. Possibly, it may bring even more wrath on their heads, as local authorities are embarrassed or angered by their report.
I think the idea that this will improve the lot of the Christians of Java is *the least likely scenario*.
Jew Lover wrote:
This is the country where Christian school girls on their way to school get murdered, and beheaded.
.......................
Yes—that would be this horror, from a few years ago. I doubt Indonesia's Christians have forgotten it.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173913,00.html
Since the goal of every Muslim is to establish Islam as the only faith being practiced on the entire planet, I cannot see an Islamic country permitting kuffars to practice their faith unless they pay the jizya and submit themselves as dhimmis.
In the interest of fairness, perhaps we should charge Muslims living in infidel countries a "jihad" tax in order to pay for the increased security. It's only fair........
Here's a depressing debate, where a panel discuss islam and democracy.
See how easily people buy into this. They keep mentioning Indonesia as an example for 'islamic democracy' (LOL). This is the biggest problem we are facing here.
More importantly, it "is contrary to the constitution," Rev Panjaitan insisted.
How much traction does a mere state-drafted constitution really have in a majority muslim culture? I'm thinking not that much.
These actions are just small enough to stay out of the world's consciousness, but they're just big enough to take over countries.
*** 92:8 ***
Burma. Lebanon. Philippines. Nigeria. Can anybody name a country that is being forcibly taken over by another belief system other than Islam?
*** 9:29 ***
Globo-socialism excepted, of course.
Forty years ago Barack Obama spent some blissful childhood years, aged 6 to 9, in an elementary school to which both Christian and Muslim children were sent (which means that the Muslim parents in question were already easygoing, self-selected secularists unopposed to their children being contaminated by proximity to Christians, and eager for their children to receive a non-Islamic, i.e. real, education).
He did so in Jakarta, the capital and therefore the least retrograde city in Indonesia, and he lived with his mother and her husband in a part of the city where non-Muslims, especially foreigners, lived. Indonesia itself, at the time, was still being ruled by those who, nationalist and secularist leaders who constituted the first generation of rulers after independence was gained, were either still in power, or their epigones were. There were spasms of anti-Muslim mob rage, expressed for example in the pogrom against the non-Muslim Chinese (depicted, however, for Western consumption as a war against "Communists" with hints of a Fifth Column for Communist China) which occurred in the late 1960s, as a supplement to a campaign against too-secular (leftist) Muslim Indonesians.
In other words, to the ordinary fond memories that any boy, well-brought up (and Obama was brought up very well, with his mother and then his grandparents as loving yet demanding, and also serving as his private tutors), would have for his childhood years, ages 6 to 9, one has to add that he was going to a secular school, in the most secular city, at a time when Indonesia itself was still secular, and the malevolent growth in Arab power and influence, bringing with it "the real Islam" (which is to say, the Real Islam), as a result of OPEC trillions (some 12 trillion dollars since 1973 alone), had not yet begun to disseminate the message of Islam to the easygoing and even at times syncretistic (outside of Aceh, which was always ferociously Islamic -- see "The Acehnese" by C. Snouck Hurgronje) Muslims who tolerated music, art, and other parts of the legacy of what was once entirely Hindu and Buddhist -- the archipelago of the East Indies.
So here's a question for Barack Obama. Do you feel that you have kept up with developments in Indonesia? Do you know what is happening to the Christians in, for example, the Moluccas? Do you know what pressures are felt by the non-Muslim Hindus in Bali? Do you accept the view that the attempt to crush or kill the Catholic East Timorese had nothing to do with Islam, and was only an attempt to prevent a "breakaway province"? Do you understand why Wahid, famously pro-Israel, was so unuusal, and do you lament his passing? What is it, during the twenty years you spent in Southside Chicago, did you continue to learn about Indonesia? What is it you have found out since? Have you read any books -- say, that book by Snouck Hurgronje I mention above?
No? Incurious? Or just not enough time?
Given the circumstances, the world-historical circumstances, perhaps you should pass on any televised sports and instead, make time. Find out about Indonesia. Perhaps you, Barack Obama, who has become a cult figure in Indonesia, can help push that country's Muslims toward greater tolerance of Christians and even, perhaps, made more critical of Islam. That would be an achievement. That, in the scheme of things, in the defensive war against the Jihad, would matter.
Forty years ago Barack Obama spent some blissful childhood years, aged 6 to 9, in an elementary school to which both Christian and Muslim children were sent (which means that the Muslim parents in question were already easygoing, self-selected secularists unopposed to their children being contaminated by proximity to Christians, and eager for their children to receive a non-Islamic, i.e. real, education).
He did so in Jakarta, the capital and therefore the least retrograde city in Indonesia, and he lived with his mother and her husband in a part of the city where non-Muslims, especially foreigners, lived. Indonesia itself, at the time, was still being ruled by those who, nationalist and secularist leaders who constituted the first generation of rulers after independence was gained, were either still in power, or their epigones were. There were spasms of anti-Muslim mob rage, expressed for example in the pogrom against the non-Muslim Chinese (depicted, however, for Western consumption as a war against "Communists" with hints of a Fifth Column for Communist China) which occurred in the late 1960s, as a supplement to a campaign against too-secular (leftist) Muslim Indonesians.
In other words, to the ordinary fond memories that any boy, well-brought up (and Obama was brought up very well, with his mother and then his grandparents as loving yet demanding, and also serving as his private tutors), would have for his childhood years, ages 6 to 9, one has to add that he was going to a secular school, in the most secular city, at a time when Indonesia itself was still secular, and the malevolent growth in Arab power and influence, bringing with it "the real Islam" (which is to say, the Real Islam), as a result of OPEC trillions (some 12 trillion dollars since 1973 alone), had not yet begun to disseminate the message of Islam to the easygoing and even at times syncretistic (outside of Aceh, which was always ferociously Islamic -- see "The Acehnese" by C. Snouck Hurgronje) Muslims who tolerated music, art, and other parts of the legacy of what was once entirely Hindu and Buddhist -- the archipelago of the East Indies.
So here's a question for Barack Obama. Do you feel that you have kept up with developments in Indonesia? Do you know what is happening to the Christians in, for example, the Moluccas? Do you know what pressures are felt by the non-Muslim Hindus in Bali? Do you accept the view that the attempt to crush or kill the Catholic East Timorese had nothing to do with Islam, and was only an attempt to prevent a "breakaway province"? Do you understand why Wahid, famously pro-Israel, was so unuusal, and do you lament his passing? What is it, during the twenty years you spent in Southside Chicago, did you continue to learn about Indonesia? What is it you have found out since? Have you read any books -- say, that book by Snouck Hurgronje I mention above?
No? Incurious? Or just not enough time?
Given the circumstances, the world-historical circumstances, perhaps you should pass on any televised sports and instead, make time. Find out about Indonesia. Perhaps you, Barack Obama, who has become a cult figure in Indonesia, can help push that country's Muslims toward greater tolerance of Christians and even, perhaps, made more critical of Islam. That would be an achievement. That, in the scheme of things, in the defensive war against the Jihad, would matter.
What should we call the mistake, prompted by the mistaken assumption that the appearance of a post should not take more than a minute, leading to an unnecesary re-posting (which becomes de trop when the first one shows up, unapologitically, after all), and embarrassment for the poster who doesn't want others to think that he thinks so much of his words that he insisted on posting them twice?
What shall we call -- prize for the best entry -- the blogging-on-the-Internet equivalent of that lapsus calami, that mistake in in pen or print, traditionally known as diplography?
Hugh wrote:
What should we call the mistake, prompted by the mistaken assumption that the appearance of a post should not take more than a minute, leading to an unnecesary re-posting (which becomes de trop when the first one shows up, unapologitically, after all), and embarrassment for the poster who doesn't want others to think that he thinks so much of his words that he insisted on posting them twice?
What shall we call -- prize for the best entry -- the blogging-on-the-Internet equivalent of that lapsus calami, that mistake in in pen or print, traditionally known as diplography?
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Magnificent, Hugh! Anyone else would have simply used the entirely prosaic, "sorry for the double post".
Have any European or US Christian organisations come to these poor souls' aid? What is the Pope or the Arch Bish doing about their flock? What is the Christian Aid?
I smell racism.
If they have no place to worship, I suggest they use streets and pavements around the church as was done by muslims during their troubles with the authority in Finsbury Park Mosque in London.
Gozan wrote:
More importantly, it "is contrary to the constitution," Rev Panjaitan insisted.
How much traction does a mere state-drafted constitution really have in a majority muslim culture? I'm thinking not that much.
....................
I was curious about this myself, Gozan, so I decided to do a little research.
Turns out that in 1945 when the Indonesian constitution was written, there was a provision called the Jakarta Charter that Muslims tried to push through. It "declared that the newly-created state would be based on a belief in the one supreme God 'with the obligation to live according to Islamic law for Muslims'."
In other words, Shari'ah. Now the 1940s through the 1960s in Indonesia represented a low ebb in power for Muslim supremacy, and the charter, proving unpopular with many non-Muslim and secular Indonesians, was withdrawn.
But it looks as though the Jakarta Charter and its call for Shari'ah has never really gone away—and knowing what we know of Islam, how could it? It or its provisions show up from time to time in proposed bills pushing Shari'ah and dhimmi status for Infidels.
In so many Muslim nations, a seemingly rather decent constitution is completely undercut by some innocuous-seeming mention that none of the provisions can contradict Islamic law, rendering the constitution essentially moot, as it is trumped in every particular by Shari'ah law.
Serious Muslims in Indonesia are trying to do the same thing.
http://archive.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=6072
Note, also, at the end of this article, the forced closures of not just churches in Indonesia, but even an *orphanage for crippled children*, because it is run by charitable Christians.
Sorry, this is OT ....
Please pray for those in Haiti ..and help them, too; either financially, or through some kind of service, if you can. Thank you.
Saith Hugh:
What shall we call -- prize for the best entry -- the blogging-on-the-Internet equivalent of that lapsus calami, that mistake in in pen or print, traditionally known as diplography?"
May I suggest First and Second Prize?
Hugh, your greatness covers a multitude of sins. And I usually read your posts twice anyway.
Champ, yes I'm already gathering clothes to send through a church. What a devastating event.
From the article you linked:
Separately, a group of Muslims lobbied for the closure of a Catholic orphanage for crippled children in Batu, in the Malang district of East Java, stating concern that the facility would become a covert vehicle for “Christianization.”
That's pretty amazing isn't it: never mind that crippled orphans are being cared for - they might get Christianized!
It is hard to see how the koranic worldview could really respect a civil framework other than itself. Civil liberties in islamic countries seem to recede in proportion to how "pure" their brand of islam is.
And if it were the Jews, would they have to turn to the "Apes and Pigs" Commission?
Several churches where I live are sending help and keeping Haiti in prayer.
That's wonderful, Gymgal and Gozan :)
dupelography?
Re. Haiti - and oddly enough, not entirely OT.
Haiti is a terrible mess of a country, corrupt and badly governed; but Haiti is, at least nominally, majority-Christian (mostly Catholic) and there is also a strong and energetic Evangelical presence.
There are many reputable Christian NGOs - e.g. the Salvation Army - who are already on the ground there, and through whom help will assuredly reach those in need. Large amounts of practical charity, channelled through the Catholic and evangelical churches, *will* have an effect on the ground - and it is worth remembering that, according to an item that I read recently in a Barnabas Fund prayer booklet, the slithering tentacles of Muslim da'wa have been getting ahold in Haiti (as also in other small, poor Caribbean countries). The stronger that that non-Muslim society can be made, by grassroots help from fellow Christians, the less likely they will be to listen to Muslim smiles, wiles and bribes-with-strings-attached.
Pray that in the present dreadful crisis the genuineness of Christian charity, as opposed to the sociopathic manipulativeness and deceit of Islam strings-attached 'aid', may be clearly exposed to those Haitians who may have been tempted by Muslim da'wa artists.
It might also be instructive to observe the difference between the way that a nominally Christian society - however corrupt, poor, badly-governed and chaotic - responds to and struggles back onto its feet after an overwhelming disaster like this, and the way that similarly corrupt, poor, badly governed and chaotic Muslim societies respond.
My own suspicion is that the Haitians, not being crippled by inshallah fatalism, will not do so badly as all that.
There will be a great deal of bad behaviour. But there will also be many shining examples of pure charity, courage, cooperation and refusal to despair (just as we saw in tsunami-stricken Tonga and Samoa). The many, many mass funerals will be *Catholic* funerals, full of emotion, but also tinged with hope.
And I suspect that such help as is given by, for example, the USA, will be received with real gratitude by many; and that the Haitian-American community, particularly their churches, will be scrambling for a chance to help.
It may speak poorly of my spiritual condition, but that actually strikes me as funny.
The "National Human Right Commission" of Indonesia !?
OK It's not as funny as would be say, a similarly named agency in Arabia, but still ...
On a more serious note though, I keep wondering when the rest of Christendom is going to notice the oppression of Christians in mohammedan countries.
As I understand it, the recognition that believers will likely suffer in Christ's name -- due to the general nastiness of the world -- is very much in keeping with a committed Christian outlook. Still, there's nothing in the faith to prohibit speaking out against the oppression of Christians that I've ever heard of.
I mean a few churches could rear up on their hind legs and say "hey, cut it out!".
Really.
In other words, to the ordinary fond memories that any boy, well-brought up (and Obama was brought up very well, with his mother and then his grandparents as loving yet demanding, and also serving as his private tutors), would have for his childhood years, ages 6 to 9, one has to add that he was going to a secular school, in the most secular city...
Very well brought up may be good enough for a black boy to ultimately gain admittance to the Ruling Elite, but it's that very elite that is ruining this country and leaving it vulnerable to not only Jihad war terror but to decay through Islamization.
*** 92:8 ***
Here's a good perspective on this phenomenon from today's Washington Exmainer:
To acknowledge this is to indict their own judgment, to face the fact they themselves may be less than insightful, that "talking like us" means next to nothing, and that writing for magazines doesn't equip one for greatness, or leadership. In fact, it only equips one to write for more magazines. And what does this say? That our "educated class" is educated beyond its intelligence, and mistakes mastery of its patois and attitude for wisdom and competence.
Stupid is as stupid does, and Obama has been busy doing lotsa things this past year. All of them bad, all of them stupid.
Gotta go by a person's record and, in my opinion, the dude is a bit of a dumbass.