I just finished a heated hour-long "debate" with Hussam Ayloush of CAIR on California radio show. I put "debate" in quotation marks because Ayloush followed his usual playbook: lots of personal attacks and insults, windy non-answers to straightforward questions (notably "Are Hamas and Hizballah terrorist organizations?"), and obfuscations and half-truths about uncomfortable facts. The hosts were little better, following his equation of me with Osama bin Laden with "Thanks, that's great" and letting his slanders go unchallenged and unanswered.
But in any case, I promised I would post some information about CAIR. There is, of course, a great deal in the archives -- search both Jihad Watch and Dhimmi Watch. And here is a good overview of the principal facts about the organization. See also here, here, and here.
thanks for the great on-going effort....
Infuriating, is it not, to attempt to have a rational debate and to find yourself instead with an opponent who slithers about like an eel, and with whom you can never quite engage, because you can never quite grasp and hold him long enough, because he is forever slipping and sliding and meanwhile keeping of a non-stop patter of distraction and attack and omission and exaggeration. The very idea of a debate is or should be related to the idea that each party attempts, in good faith, to examine a topic together, and to ask, or answer, questions of or from the other.
In this case the topic was Islam, what it inculcates, and what such inculcation may reasonably be said to do to the minds of Believers, and how the observable behavior of Muslims in their attacks on Infidels, and attempts to undo the legal and political institutions of Infidel lands so as to ensure that "Islam dominates and is not to be dominated" everywhere, can be attributed to what Muslims learn in Qur'an, Hadith, Sira.
But CAIR and its representatives are never going to discuss such matters. Personal invective (counting on the ignorance of listeners) is the first weapon. Tu-Quoque attacks a second. Taqiyya, outright lying about the nature of Islam, and the beliefs of Muslims, is a third. And in such circumstances the good-faith debater seeking an intelligent debate discovers, not for the first time, that in such cases it is an ignis fatuus, with emphasis on the fatuity, that is to say, a will-o'-the-wisp that no matter how close one thinks one may be getting to it, in the end simply disapears, or flickers further off in the miasma of the Muslim apologist's non-stop rhetoric.
Unless the moderator-hosts for suchthings set up strict rules, and demand that questions be answered and not remain un-answered or answered with irrelevancies, the farce will continue. And all that will have been learned is something about the eerily eel-like quality of the other side, with all that slipping and slithering --perhaps not quite as effectively as Tariq Ramadan -- as far away from the real and serious matter at hand, as is possible.
"Ayloush: I think it would be important to say, at this point, that defaming other people’s religion is against Islam’s teachings."
You would agree to associate with someone this insane and willing to lie?
No matter what one finds out and re-states about Islam, Muslims deny that you found out any facts even though your facts quototed came from Muslims or Islamic documents in the first place. We always have it wrong, misquoted, misinterpreted, taken out of context, just plain wrong. But....
Anyone with a brain will see through this. If not, anyone with a half a brain can turn on the TV or read the news, and yes read some blogs if you want. The unmistakable facts are: ALL radical violence in the world today is conducted by one group...Muslims against Muslims or Muslims against others. Pictures are worth a thousand words. That is Undeniable.
A while back, that's how I got interested in Jihad Watch. There were just too many world problems and war, acts of violence and hate, all involving Muslims, to be a coincidence.
Even my pea sized brain could figure out it's not a coincidence, it's Islam, sanctioned by the Koran.
No debate required.
Mr. Spencer, you should probably be aware on these "local" radio programs just what is going on.
First, a week before you are on the promo goes something like this, "Yeah next week we have the Islamophobe Robert Spencer.......I don't know how the country can put up with KKK guys like him".
The show goes on with your being attacked. The hosts just kind of nod and are indifferent and then they thank you for being on the program.
AFTER, you leave they unload on you for a half hour like a bunch of cowards they are using the same street language Muslims do.
The last time I heard a set up like this the hosts were using "pro basketball athletes" as the divine example of how good Muslims are. The ignorants had no idea that a story was breaking that Akeem was just exposed as funding a Mosque which was promoting terrorism.
Personally, I would refrain from the local yocals of Caliberfornia and elsewhere until they sent you a few tapes of their interviews of Conservatives and the next half hour of their comments when they left.
If they would not email you the digi files, then tell them no thanks as you suspect their agenda.
Just some not asked for friendly advice as you should understand the people you are dealing with are not of a character that cares about honesty.
Your pithy summary, Hugh, reminds me of the "3 R's", Readin' (w)Ritin' and (a)Rithmetic.
For brevity maybe we should refer to the "3 T's" that Islamic Apologists use:
(a)Ttacks
Tu-quoque
Taqiyya
Just a thought.
Thanks again for your effort.
Obviously, the deck was stacked against you, yet you followed through in spite of the intimidation.
If we had more citizens like you that were willing to fight, we would all be safer.
Thanks once more for the courage to stand up for what is right and what is true.
Of course it sounds like a set up to me. The point is CAIR is always going to call you names like islamophobe and racist. They know that works with soft liberals and scares them away from your work. Perhaps it would be a good idea to fire back.
When Hussam Ayloush (or any CAIR) calles you this just respond with the same. Say "CAIR is a sexist and supremacist organization". This will throw goofy liberals into a loop. Put them on the defensive. In fact go so far as to call Hussam Ayloush a sexist! Make him have to defend himself. If he says he is not then fire back the quotes from Dougie Hooper about Sharia law. If he says Sharia law is not sexist then you have your window to attack because Sharia is sexist. Hussam Ayloush defends a organization that supports a sexist law code in America and thus Ayloush is sexist.
See the key is sometimes going into the gutter is an effective tactic. Lets see how CAIR likes it. My feeling is they won't handle well at all because unlike their attacks on you which have no standing the counter-attacks on CAIR are on solid ground. Use the ground to your advantage. Use the weapon of political correctness!
CAIR supports sexism!
Save the Women! Save the Girls!
Freedom for Women!
CAIR wants women to be un-equal to men!
Explain your goal is to save American Women from the inferior status CAIR wants for them!
etc!
Just think a few NOW folks might be listening and start thinking hey maybe this Robert Spencer is right. Sexist CAIR dogs and then they will call their local chapter HQ.
BY the time poor Ayloush is done defending himself he will have no time to call you anything. The best part is you can get him muddy and also you can use the time to explain Sharia to the masses! Two for the price of one...
CAIR= colluding arabists' islamofascist revolution.
Any questions?
CAIR....confused arabs in repudiation,
greatcometof1577:
I love your idea. Using the same buzz worlds lieberals to demonize their opponents should hopefully give them pause and make them think. But more likely, they will just shut down the debate as it is their way when they can't debate the facts.
How can you debate somebody, who thinks they have the alah given nod to mislead, to lie?
Take that hammer, and nail down that one issue, Taqiyya. Bring it up, ask what it is, have them explain it. Give the verse(s) from the koran, have it read and explained to the masses. Expose the truth on this one issue.
By the end, you can simply say "No further debate is needed, it will serve none as long as they beleve they have been given the right by alah to mislead, to lie".
Then watch it snake away from that.
When I've seen Robert in action he is humble yet obviously extremely intelligent and comfortable with the subject matter at hand. He does not froth at the mouth, get angry or start attacking his opponents. There is an inherent class about him, one that these lying and hidden-agenda-promoting goons can't possibly hope to develop in a lifetime of underhanded busy work.
Look at Dougie Hooper. What an embarassment! Even the dumbest person has got to see the difference between the erudite Mr. Spencer and the back-ass-wards Hooper who should never have quit his day job. No, I think we need more Robert, not less. The Muslims who debate and try to villify make themselves look foolish everytime they go rabid on the air. The average person does not connect with that sort of behavior in a positive way.
"Take that hammer, and nail down that one issue,"
...and when they start calling you a bigot, a zionist crusader, liar, Jew lover, etc....then you know you are winning....
Hey girls,
This is what CAIR has planned for all us female Kufir if Sharia ever becomes the law of the land.
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/taliperf.html
Ban all Islam now.
When push comes to shove--and it will--we know who will have to be rendered harmless.
Good Afternoon,
This is Ben Holck from the Dave and Ben Show. I want you to know that I agree with 99% of what Robert said on my program. He came on my show this morning and duked it out quite well with Mr. Ayloush. Robert knows his stuff and was a GREAT guest. Robert, if you read this post, thank-you again for your comments and time this morning. I support your organization and will do all I can to uncover the truth about what's really going on. If any of you would like to listen to the debate please check out: http://www.kuci.org/talk, and then subscribe to the Dave and Ben Show podcast which will bring up today's debate.
Best Regards,
Ben Holck
One more thing, in all fairness to Mr. Spencer I did my best to hold Mr. Ayloush accountable for his comments. I regret that Mr. Spencer did not give me credit for doing so in his initial post about the program today.
-Ben Holck
"I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future."
Thank You, Dougie!
Never let any CAIR people forget this one. Never let the host of any so called debate or show forget it either! Bring it up everytime a goon from CAIR is in the room.
Then ask do you guys know what that means...
That should be informative in it self!
Then say it means "no more liberated liberal women!".
Gasp!
Can somebody please explain why ther is a CAIR-Canada? The A stand for American and last time I looked Canada and America are separate countries. Why can't there be a Council for Canadian Islamic Relations? Does CAIR envision Canada as part of the Caliphate of America?
Thank You, Robert
I bow down to your superior intellect!
That was heated but the line that shall live my memory for ever..
"We stand for the spirit of what America stands for" Hussam Ayloush, CAIR
Hahahahahaha...
Balrog, USA and Canada, because they are in the Americas tend to suit "CAIR". That could be why there is a CAIR-Canada.
Dosen't matter though, we cannot have a caliphate in USA or in Canada.
Ben,
The link does not work.
Re: A few facts about CAIR
One day in the future, perhaps not so very far into the future, we will all hear the tapes and read the transcripts of what has been carefully hidden by CAIR-Bund-Deceivers, we will hear the Jew-hatred and contempt for Kuffirs in general, and it will all be a big ho-hum, as if we did not know the truth already.
Thank you, Ben Holck, for having Robert Spencer on your show.
FYI
The link will work if you remove the trailing comma at the end of the URL on your web browser.
If I knew how to post a live link I would. Sorry!
http://www.kuci.org/talk
Interestinconundrum, thank-you for correcting my link. I apologize to any one who experienced difficulties listening to the program. Thank you all for tuning in.
-Ben
Of course it sounds like a set up to me. The point is CAIR is always going to call you names like islamophobe and racist. They know that works with soft liberals and scares them away from your work. Perhaps it would be a good idea to fire back.
When Hussam Ayloush (or any CAIR) calles you this just respond with the same. Say "CAIR is a sexist and supremacist organization". This will throw goofy liberals into a loop. Put them on the defensive. In fact go so far as to call Hussam Ayloush a sexist! Make him have to defend himself. If he says he is not then fire back the quotes from Dougie Hooper about Sharia law. If he says Sharia law is not sexist then you have your window to attack because Sharia is sexist. Hussam Ayloush defends a organization that supports a sexist law code in America and thus Ayloush is sexist.
See the key is sometimes going into the gutter is an effective tactic. Lets see how CAIR likes it. My feeling is they won't handle well at all because unlike their attacks on you which have no standing the counter-attacks on CAIR are on solid ground. Use the ground to your advantage. Use the weapon of political correctness!
CAIR supports sexism!
Save the Women! Save the Girls!
Freedom for Women!
CAIR wants women to be un-equal to men!
Explain your goal is to save American Women from the inferior status CAIR wants for them!
etc!
Just think a few NOW folks might be listening and start thinking hey maybe this Robert Spencer is right. Sexist CAIR dogs and then they will call their local chapter HQ.
BY the time poor Ayloush is done defending himself he will have no time to call you anything. The best part is you can get him muddy and also you can use the time to explain Sharia to the masses! Two for the price of one...
Posted by: greatcometof1577
Just say it greatcometof1577....JIHAD.Jihad ,jihad, jihad.
Jihad that Jihad Robert
Jihad that Jihad Hugh
Jihad that Jihad every living soul.
I think that when Robert and co. make them squirm over the facts and the truth and the inaccuracies of thier stories they perform a pretty afective Jihad on jihad.
All one needs to do is allow islam to speak and continue to be excuse makers and the real truth comes out.All eyes will fall upon islam and even more questions then and more debate will arise.
So long islam.
CAIR can go suck an egg!
Robert,
I don't see what is wrong with saying "Hang CAIR!" at a protest. As long as no one throws stones or Molotovs at the CAIR building, then it's fine. Anti-war protestors get away with a lot worse. Besides, most people here do think that CAIR deserves to be hung.
Hussam Alouse is quite a pudd. He doesn't have anything to argue with, he works for CAIR.
Keep going after them, Mr. Spencer, else they'll go unchallenged. And we should never let people as disingenuous as the American haters at CAIR go unchallenged.
Dave and Ben. Dumb and dumber.
Two of the most uninformed, unprepared, unprofessional and obnoxious radio 'personalities' I have ever had the displeasure of listening to.
Robert was correct in not giving either of those clowns credit for their amateurish attempt to moderate a discussion between he and that obfuscating idiot, Aylush.
The only two positive aspects of that pathetic 'program' are that astute listeners must surely have figured out how utterly deceitful Aylush is and anyone with common sense will certainly not willfully tune in to their 'show' again.
Good grief!
I thought that Dave was needlessly rude to Robert in his preface to the question about why any CAIR employees should be comfortable if people were shouting "Hang CAIR outside".
Ben, you are right - you did repudiate Ayloush's statement that Robert and Osama are 2 sides of the same coin. However, while it is his opinion on whether he is equally sick of Osama and Spencer, you let his parting statement wishing that all those who hate Osama kill and get killed by him on the battlefield go unchallenged - leaving the impression that you equate al Qaeda to those opposed to it. I also do wish that you had asked Robert to elaborate on his suggestion on Iraq, rather than imply that he sees Israel on the same moral plane as Syria and Hizbullah.
You also let Ayloush get away with too much, instead of answering direct questions. As for Robert, while I would have preferred him directly stating, "No, I do not condemn Israel", it's disingenous to state that he was avoiding the question when he was explaining why Israel wasn't condemn-worthy. "Israel dropping millions of cluster bombs" was numbered pulled out of Ayloush's ass, which you let him get away with - if Israel dropped millions of bombs, it would have wiped out the world's Arab population, not just Hamas and Hizbullah terrorists.
Bottom line - no offense, but you suck at conducting debates. Suggestion for the future - have your questions prepared, and hold separate solo interviews.
Thank you all for the constructive feedback. As I'm sure you could tell by the program, I'm new at doing a radio show, so it's natural that I'm not going to be as polished as the full-time talk show hosts. In fact this was only my tenth time on the air. I hope to get better with the passage of time and your comments about how "dumb, unintelligent," I am or whatever else you said fuel my desire to improve.
Ben,
Well, for a first time radio host I say you did a good job. I can't say the same for your partner Dave. Then again, talk radio is not the best place to have a debate, especially over the phone. If both men were in the studio, then it would have been move civil. But you must be aware of some of the tricks that Islamic apologists use all the time against "Islamophobes" like Mr. Spencer. Hopefully, you read the evidence Mr. Spencer posted about CAIR.
I would like to inform each of you that the statements made related to this particular posting were related only to the comments made on the Dave and Ben Show yesterday on 4/11/07. Furthermore, my first comments indicated that I support Mr. Spencer organization 100%. This is not so. I support many of the ideas he purports but I in know way agree with everything he says or which is written on Jihadwatch.org. My ultimate goal is to seek out truth in all stories and I consider all sides of an issue before reaching a conclusion. Mr. Ayloush has his right to an opinion just as Mr. Spencer does. This is after all America and we can believe what we want as long as our beliefs do not interfere with the rights and liberties associated with this great nation. KUCI or my co-host Dave is not responsible for my comments, I alone take full credit. I have learned much from this debate and intercourse of ideas and I recognize I am not perfect so if I have offended anyone on either side of the spectrum I apologize.
Well Ben,
Why not state which of Robert's statements you disagree with and do please explain how you arrived at your conclusions.