Danish Imams Propose to End Cartoon Dispute

Update (7 February 2006): The Cartoon Hoax 

 

The Danish imams, who protested the publication of 12 Muhammad cartoons [see them all below] in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten last September, have announced that they want to end the dispute. For four months the imams and their radical Muslim organizations have unsuccesfully demanded government censorship. However, despite immense pressure (also from international organizations such as the UN and the EU) the Danish government refused to call the newspaper to account.

Last week a couple of Norwegian papers decided to publish the cartoons in support of the Danish paper while in Denmark moderate Muslims, encouraged by the government’s refusal to be intimidated by the radicals, have distanced themselves from the imams. The latter announced on Friday that they no longer demand apologies from Jyllands-Posten for the publication. Instead they said they just want two things: a guarantee from the Danish authorities that Muslims can freely practice their religion without being “provoked and discriminated.” And a declaration from Jyllands-Posten that the cartoons were not published with the intention of mocking the Muslim faith. “We want Jyllands-Posten to show respect for the Muslims. This can happen with an apology, but it can also happen in some other way. We will leave it to Jyllands-Posten to come up with some ideas,” said Ahmed Akkari, spokesman of the Muslim organizations. “We want respect for Muhammad restored and we want him to be described as the man he really was in history, and that he gets the respect he deserves,” Akkari stressed that Muslim organizations are still deeply opposed to the publication of the cartoons.

The Muslim organizations and Jyllands-Posten met last week to discuss the matter. “It was a good and constructive meeting. We agreed that we need to find a solution,” said Carsten Juste, editor of Jyllands-Posten. Juste stressed that the meeting was one step in a reconciliation process which the Muslim organizations and the newspaper began in December.

Some sceptics wonder whether the demands of the imams have changed fundamentally. They still insist that Jyllands-Posten admit that publishing the cartoons was wrong and make amends for it. The sceptics argue that the paper should not settle for a compromise on freedom of expression by justifying itself. Others wonder why the radical Muslims appear to be softening their demand and seem so eager to make a deal. Perhaps the decision of Norwegian papers such as Magazinet to support Jyllands-Posten by publishing the cartoons has made the radicals reconsider. Perhaps they fear a domino effect. Some Swedish papers are considering publishing the cartoons as well. If the Swedish government subsequently follows the position of the Danish and Norwegian governments, refusing to interfere and limit freedom of expression, the position of the radical Danish Muslims, who are looking for international support, will only weaken.

According to a poll taken this week among 1,047 people in Denmark 57% of the Danes support Jyllands-Posten’s decision to publish the cartoons, while 31% disagrees. Young people and men are more likely to support the decision. Almost two out of every three males and 61% of people aged between 18 and 25 years of age did so.

Meanwhile an international organization of Muslim intellectuals has threatened to mobilize “millions of Muslims all over the World” to boycott Danish and Norwegian products unless the Danish and Norwegian government condemn the publication of the cartoons, which is called an “attack on the Muslims of the World and on the Prophet.” In Saudi Arabia people are receiving e-mails and sms messages urging them to boycott Danish products “until Denmark offers an official apology.” The Organization of the Islamic Conference protested last week’s publication of the cartoons in the Norwegian paper Magazinet. The Iranian embassy in Oslo said that freedom of expression cannot justify publishing the cartoons. However, Finn Jarle Sæle, the editor of the Norwegian Christian newspaper Norge I DAG, announced that his paper is also considering publishing the cartoons. He called upon other Norwegian editors to do the same. Sæle says that so far many of them have only written editorials supporting freedom of expression but have not dared to publish the cartoons themselves.

Asked if wider publication will not lead to unnecessary confrontations between Christians and Muslims Sæle said the intention was not to provoke just for the sake of provoking, but rather to confront radical Islam in Norway. Perhaps it is necessary to provoke in order to do that, he said. Sæle wants the Norwegian imams to publicly oppose the death threats that have been sent to Magazinet’s editor Vebjørn Selbekk. According to Sæle these threats are not just directed against Magazinet. They affect the entire Norwegian media, not just one editor who dared to stand up for freedom of expression.

 

More on the Danish cartoon case which The Brussels Journal has been covering from the beginning: Click here (see links at end of article)



Dear Muslim and Proudd

The Qu'ran says you are supposed to respect the Bible and the prophets in it, including Issa. See, you are intolerant. You also seem to be a racist.

I wish to make a complaint against this hate speech. Can someone please ban this person from the forums? His posts are offensive and obscene.

Oh, beer me!

@ muslim and proudd & kappert
aka  http://www.beerme.com/graphics/brewery/2/2021/3226.gif
 
Cheers!
 

@muslim and proudd

I would like to hear the soundtrack of your words. But you should use recycled toilet paper :)

reply

i'd hate to be in his shoes... prolly he'll never visit any country in which muslims exist lol. epilare definitiva

In Reply to 'Muslim and Proudd'

No one here takes 'Mrs. Revathy Parmeswar' seriously. However, if you want to launch into an anti-Western and anti-Christian tirade, take it to the Tora Bora mountains like your fellow co-religionists. Judging by your posts, it is evident, that while the Qu'ran, hatred and unconventional warfare are specialities of the madrasses, English is not. Perhaps if Muslims brushed up on English, the international language of business rather than these other pursuits, they could participate in the global economy on a greater level and they would not be so impoverished and frustrated.

TO: FLLaw33870

u no wut FLLaw33870 go take ur white ass and rubb it on the bible b cuz its all lies. oh and by the way i have a bible in my washroom...why waste money on toilet paper ey.. money dont grow on trees..but then again the bible dont either it grows underground HAHAHA.

to revathy

oh go make sum money 2 try and raise ur kids u fuking house wife... u wouldent know anything holy of it slapped u in the face. which im sure it has a few times!

oh fuk off just b cuz the

oh fuk off just b cuz the ppl from ur home counry dont make shits u dont have to 'try' and put down other coultrie... if ur frum china thats different:P i guess wut im trying to say is dont hate.

Islam is my enemy like Satan is my enemy

Dear mayousj,

True we will all stand in front of God one day, but it will be the God of the Bible and not the mythical "god" called "Allah". Allah is a false "god" a creation of Satan. Mohammad is a false prophet.

No hard feelings against you personally mayousj, but Islam is my enemy like Satan is my enemy, in fact they are both one and the same.

Thanks for your eloquence, Mayweasal

Thanks for your eloquent discourse, Mayweasel. I am now convinced of the wisdom of your views.

"god u people are total jerks!how can u judge something u dont even KNOW!dont judge islam and dont u dare bad mouth it cause one day u will stand infront of god and u'll know how stupid and ignorant u were!the bibble was a book from god too and i respect it but it was a book for a certain age and now its over,the religion now is islam iam a 17 year old gurl but i knw my way better than all of u people...no hard feelings,i pity u,god bless.."

Just please point out what age the bible was for and at what point did it end? Also, where did you learn that Islam was the way- was it from your comparative religion course at the free University of Jihad or was it your homeschooling in Universal Socialist thought?

charlotte

jerks

god u people are total jerks!how can u judge something u dont even KNOW!dont judge islam and dont u dare bad mouth it cause one day u will stand infront of god and u'll know how stupid and ignorant u were!the bibble was a book from god too and i respect it but it was a book for a certain age and now its over,the religion now is islam iam a 17 year old gurl but i knw my way better than all of u people...no hard feelings,i pity u,god bless..

Anton

Yes, I agree!

Islam and the West are incompatible

The only way the West can preserve its way of life and its freedoms (which are rapidly eroding like free speech and free press) is to eradicate Islam from its shores.

Islam and the West are incompatible. Islam is evil. Don't believe it? Then read the Quran; don't take the lying words of Islamic apologists. I've read it and it is not only a book of hate but of lies as well.

Thank God in America police stations are NOT calling us to come to their headquarters to explain the use of our inalienable RIGHT to free speech and free press. AND thank God we have the right to firearms to protect ourselves in the upcoming war with Islam within our nation. I don't expect Europe to survive its Christian/Judeo heritage. It is post Christian now and pre-Islamic, but not for long. The Dhimmitude politicians will see to that.

The disturbed view of the world many Americans hold

To the user who wrote about nuking the Muslim community you present common, egotistical and atrocious American style of viewing the world. Please tell me if you were placed in the president’s position could you really press the button that kills millions of innocent lives? Well, knowing the disturbed nature that many idiots like you possess your answer is probably yes. So I ask you, would you actually be physically able to look each women and child in their innocent eyes and with your cold-blooded hands splatter the blood on the floor? Maybe being placed in such a situation would make you realise the idiocy of such comments. Thank god we don’t have presidents like you.

That religion of peace (lies)

oh, those brave mujahideen, doing what they do best:

"...A large man dressed in military fatigues, boots and cap approaches from behind and covers her mouth with his left hand. In his right hand, he clutches a large knife with a black handle and an 8in blade. He proceeds to cut her throat from the middle, slicing from side to side.

Her cries — “Ah, ah, ah” — can be heard above the “Allahu akbar” (God is greatest) intoned by the holder of the mobile phone.

Even then, there is no quick release for Bahjat. Her executioner suddenly stands up, his job only half done. A second man in a dark T-shirt and camouflage trousers places his right khaki boot on her abdomen and pushes down hard eight times, forcing a rush of blood from her wounds as she moves her head from right to left.

Only now does the executioner return to finish the task. He hacks off her head and drops it to the ground, then picks it up again and perches it on her bare chest so that it faces the film-maker in a grotesque parody of one of her pieces to camera.

The voice of one of the Arab world’s most highly regarded and outspoken journalists has been silenced. She was 30."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2168496,00.html

Mohammed "Statue" in Belgian Church

Response to AMZ FINALLY!

If I was dieing I would NEVER call you for a doktor, believe that..I would desire some sanitary easures.
I have unfortunately spent time in a hospital in the Middle East! Thank the Gods ..you can bring your own food in.. You need to! I also brought my nurse her latex hospital gloves as well. Also her masks, which kept me from being hit daily with the stench of foul medammes and garlic from her mouth, and the unsanitary hijab she was wearing. As for your following the great Hippocratic Oath.. that would mean you were civilized and since you would withhold medical treatment as you have stated previously. then that is typically in keeping with the belief system that your religion promotes.

Oh I thought that they did that because they were taught intolerance, hatred, greed, viciousness, barbarity,cruelty and disdain from birth.. You have educated me further.. I forgot about stupidity and just plain dumbness as well as religious slavery! Thank the gods!I thought it was something serious like a disease such as Asian Bird Flu! Those aforementioned things can be NUKED out of existence. I do not know why they hate us, in the West we usually come and save your sorry asses when it is needed. And provide escapes for you when the home regimes start telling you what you can and cannot do worship wise and as usual then you turn on us.. So yes Nuke you! You are not part of a religion.. I would call it a "cult"! Now go run off and make yourself into a doktor.. so you can go "poof" later on. when your people have finally ticked off the rest of the world for the LAST TIME!

Have a nice day!

Odin be Praised!  Baldur Save Us!

Resaponse to AMZ Part III

cont.

Oh how touching, you are hurt! Not as hurt as others I am sure. I lived in the Middle East so as a group of people will you "muslims" do me a favour.. Cut the shit out about being so sensitive! Muslims have printed some of the most disgusting and specious excrement I have ever seen in cartoons in newspapers with regard to Jesus, Mary and the Jews, the West and ad nauseum infinitum I have ever seen. That sensitive part is extremely rich, coming from one of your faith. The cartoons and snippets I saw were a hell of a lot more repugnant than the ones that were printed in a NON -GOVERNMENT newspapers! In case you did not know the cartoons in the West are not government sanctioned.
Yours in the Middle East are! Jesus wept! But you do no t see the West running around
howling for the blood of muslims everytime you people print one! If we did NO ONE in the West would ever get ANY work done!

Why is it that when a muslim says. writes or does something horrible,no one ever speaks up over there. Let someone else do it against what you believe or one of you and you run into the street calling for the blood of that person and their children and their children's children!

"You wonder why Muslims all around the world are full of anger and why seven year old boys in Afganistan want to suicide bomb the selves to save their brothers and sisters. Well its all your fault with your stupid stupid NUKENESS! Anyway i got to go and finnish my courswork because doctors arnt going to make themselves!"

cont.

Odin be Praised!  Baldur Save Us!

Response to AMZ part II

you wrote:
"and second of all what is more cowerdly then hoping for a 15 year old girl who wants to be a doctor when shes older to help people to be NUKED ( still have no idea what this stupid word means)"

Oh! How sweet.. you wish to be a doktor..so did my girlfriend's little girl. Right now she is in a medical ward being treated for lots of things. I will tell her about your wishes as well. Perhaps you would care to come and tell her how " muslims"
are nice people who would NEVER do such disgusting things as that. And about your prophet! Because right now all I want to do is punch some scummy muslim in the face until they have none.. care to volunteer!

Would cowardly people also be people who make bombs and strap them on then visit wedding celebrations, tourist resorts, restaurants, hijack airlines, cruise ships,blow up subways and train stations, cities, world trade centers, call for jihad against fast food restarutant because some half illiterate asshole cannot tell the difference between a swirl ice cream cone and his precious god's name, marry a man to a goat, bomb schools, grocery stores, markets, etc,; teach their children to parade in the streets calling for murder or as grown men with weapons roam through hotels and resorts street looking to kill scandinavian children for the honor of their miserable prophet. Hmm! Could that be a coward!

you wrote:

"or is a person more cowerdly for being felt insulted when your god and your beloved prophet has been insulted. If i do get nuked then i hope you can live with your self and when im older and for some reason your dieing and need a doctor ie me then dont come to me because with your sort of remarks i would probably NUKE you."

cont.

Odin be Praised!  Baldur Save Us!

A Response to AMZ, I just want to say

Dear AMZ last night I thought on a response for you long and hard in a tender way, and yet the harsh reality of morning reminded me perfectly the truth of what my answer should be ...YES! Nuked! I will break this into segments for you.. so you will be able to follow it behind your comments and for length of the answering as well.

you wrote:

"i just want to say something to the complete idoit who wrote the last comment on page 1. I am a 15 year old muslim girl and the worst thing i have probably done is come home 30 minuites late after my cerfew and your saying i should be nuked."

Not just you .. all the other muslims as well. So your 16 years old, innocent and all that.. Not too innocnet you can use the word asshole quite easily! Hmm! My girlfriends 11 year old daughter swas raped by a gang of "muslim " thugs on her way home from school wearing her school uniform, hair in two braids on the side of her head with ribbons. I guess the ribbons were flashy and seductive hunh? They "used that child" for 2 days, then turned her loose, Why? Well it seems she was asking for it. Oh, Did I mention the "muslim pigs" were upset because she did not respond to them as she walked home. Could that have been:

1) because like a good little girl she had been told not to talk to strange men on the street.
2) she is DEAF! ( well partially and wears a hearing aid)- noise from the street sometimes causes her reverberation, she has braces as w ell..so she turns it down a bit.

you wrote:
" First of all what the hell does NUKE mean asshole"

Nuke is a slang or idiomatic expression, which means to lay waste with a nuclear weapon. As in take off or lift off and "nuke the area" from site! Meaning to drop a bomb on the area in question. Does that help!

cont.

Odin be Praised!  Baldur Save Us!

RE: We do not understand at all

” we guarantee a free practice of religion without provocation and discrimination, because: That's the real meaning of freedom of speech!”

Sorry but you are wrong, freedom of speech means the right to question things you don’t believe in or agree with even if the other part finds it an insult that you question their beliefs or opinions.
Freedom of speech is of no use to anybody if it’s not used to challenge beliefs or opinions, how would our view of the world have been today if nobody had challenged the people who claimed that ships would drop off the earth when they reached the horizon? People’s right to question existing beliefs is the reason that great inventions and discoveries have been made.

Freedom of religion is the right to freely practice the religion of your choice, but does not in anyway safeguard it from opinions the followers might find provocative.

When I'm older

when im older and for some reason your dieing and need a doctor ie me then dont come to me because with your sort of remarks i would probably NUKE you.

Ah, this must be the Hippocratic oath updated for the twenty first century. Very modern.

Bob Doney

i just want to say something

i just want to say something to the complete idoit who wrote the last comment on page 1. I am a 15 year old muslim girl and the worst thing i have probably done is come home 30 minuites late after my cerfew and your saying i should be nuked. First of all what the hell does NUKE mean asshole and second of all what is more cowerdly then hoping for a 15 year old girl who wants to be a doctor when shes older to help people to be NUKED ( still have no idea what this stupid word means) or is a person more cowerdly for being felt insulted when your god and your beloved prophet has been insulted. If i do get nuked then i hope you can live with your self and when im older and for some reason your dieing and need a doctor ie me then dont come to me because with your sort of remarks i would probably NUKE you. You wonder why Muslims all around the world are full of anger and why seven year old boys in Afganistan want to suicide bomb the selves to save their brothers and sisters. Well its all your fault with your stupid stupid NUKENESS! Anyway i got to go and finnish my courswork because doctors arnt going to make themselves!

We do not understand at all

Are you really sure that those imams really want to kill you, especially those Americans who really fear the Irak's radicals?You should think about it a while: There's a big differences between our world and this of the arabian world, we cannot insult muslims for not understanding the manner of freedom of speech! Our different worlds have completely different values and different comprehensions of society, religions and at lest of caricatures!When I read the article it was already clear for me: We cannot send this pressure of the threats, that have been sent to the Danish and Norwegian papers back to all Imams and Muslims in the world. It is not their fault that there are some kind of radicals, who cannot understand our values. But it is on us to show them, how we mean and translate those caricatures, it is obiously that they do not want any insults on Mohammed and his character, we wouldn't accept that for Jesus either!And I have to ask: How often did the catholic church NOT understand any jokes and cartoons about its manners and traditions. It is not the first time, that papers have those problems about publishing caricatures and there is a differneces between our freedom of speech and those horrible comments full of hatred against the islamists. If we talk of laughing about our "faults" or our narrow-minded images than we should start laughing about our politicians and religions either.If you ask me, there is no problem to laugh about things that are important for yourself, as long as you know, that those who published the cartoons don't mean it in a provoking way. And they don't.I think it is time for an account that explains: we guarantee a free practice of religion without provocation and discrimination, because: That's the real meaning of freedom of speech!

just to face the truth!!!

please check out this book!
www.islam-guide.com
Let's think rationally! we have to know this religion talks about what NOT listening to others ! we have to make sure of this info is correct or not!
Be rational and know what is Islam (with correct info) then decide!
I believe in Freedom so much but I respect all beliefs more! that's why I knew the truth of Islam.. it's so good religion!

Dear little fundamentalist muslim dogs

We see you running around like rabid dogs in heat on the news every night. It is rather sickening to witness quite honestly. The religious stupor you are all in will be your means to your end. The tide of hatred in the west is rising against you each and everyday, so pray to God, pray to Mecca, whatever the fuck you animals do because it will soon be your only defense.

kungfumaster:

You may not like Clinton and Gore apologizing to Muslims for cartoons, but how do you like Bush sucking up to the UAE, breaking the law and tell us it's a done deal despite the illegalities?

For my part, I wonder why any politicians believe that US citizens ought to apologize to Muslims for anything! It's they who killed 3000 of ours, and I don't see a tiny sign of their remorse.

I think the politicians on both sides don't have a clue about how the average American really feels about arrogant imams, terrorists, and the people who admire them and won't stand up to them (I suspect they're waiting to see who wins). It isn't apologetic, either.

Everytime Muslims blame us for everything, including their own destruction of other Muslims' mosques and other Muslims, for that matter; and demonstrate for days over silly cartoons, blow themselves up to kill anybody and everybody else, etc., well, why does anyone think it's our place to calm them down?

They are listening to the evildoers who are stirring them up. If they think that our politicians are apologizing for us, they are going to be very surprised --if anything, our politicians are just trying to keep the lid on Americans. There is genuine dislike for everything 9/11 represents concerning those who attacked us. And it won't go away with all the sucking up the politicians are doing.

I can't wait to see which politicians will stand up with the people of the US in this UAE Ports matter.

Can't you?

Well, that's better...

I must confess I wasn't drinking coffee with my ampicillin...I had Constant Comment tea with honey and lemon and Puerto Rican rum...I feel better, too.
Sorry I missed the pagan Norse stories.
BTW, American Indians leave food out for the "spirits" just like A New Believer does...I went thru that religion, but, come to find out, it was a deception...Religions which rely on human intercessors are all deceptions, because humans are sinners all...

This is a very profound point, you see, about whether a human can reach God in a sinful state and how his prayers will be received. A Christian can, of course, reach God in a holy state because Christ is his intercessor and his prayers are made acceptable--thus, God's answer will be holy.
This is not the case with human intercessors.

Just thought I'd share what I know.

Note: I liked the Chi-wah-wah! It beats a fat-wah. I hope the poster from the Phillipines can find comfort from the tragedies there.

Nice to see you all!

I'm back...

Hello, I'm back, after a week with a cold and a sore throat...but I'm having trouble with the site. I'm being told I am being denied access to pages and I cannot post...so, I'm trying again.

Testing, testing...

Democracy demands tolerance? Rubbish.

Democracy does not "demand" anything except that "some" people have the right to vote as to whom governs the state. This is why ancient Venice, the Papal State, Calvinistic Geneva and many other authoritarian regimes with very little tolerance for antiChristian values and attitudes all have the right to call themselves democracies.

----------------------------------------------------Mahomet is no prophet, Allah is no faith, Islam is no religion. Christ will destroy them all.

Your statements are a testament to your ignorance

Hypocracy

Vindictiveness

Democracy demands tolerance and values freedom of speech....If you do not respect these vslues then go back to your muslim land which continues to living in simple binary theocracy...

Delusional......As for the West we have moved beyond simplistic binary thinking both from a technological perspective as well as a social perspective...

The point is that Western man, in spite of all it's past transgressions, continues to grow and develop daily in a more positive direction...

It's called growing up....
So grow up you hate filled simpleton

Sorry KungFuMaster...Darth

Sorry KungFuMaster...Darth Gerbil Had my arms twisting it! I am on the side of
the Jedi GERBIL of course! *smile*

P.S. Tell GrandMaster Yoda the blueberry muffins are ready!

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

To KungFuMaster....Eeeeeeeep!

Eeeeep!
But I did mention Darth Gerbil.. and asked that he be with you!

* looks around nervously* Plus is not good.. the Viking * pointing on finger to the large Nordic giant chopping wood*

May the Prophet Gerbil be well!
Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

TO WILLIS: LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT,,,,

I'M JUST WONDERING IF THOSE ARAB MUSLIM FRIENDS OF YOURS KNOW HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT ISLAM AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH)... I'M SURE ANY TRUE MUSLIM WOULD BE REALLY INSULTED BY THIS RATHER TASTELESS NOTE!

Lilly

Re: Mexican Fatwah! ( The Chiwahwah)

Oh nooooooo! Not the not the chiwawah!
and der weiner schnitzel as well! OKay, okay ...pipe down Charlemagne may try and lock me away in one of those hermitical cell with sackcloth, ashes, a pentenitial flail, and a hair shirt until I convert to catholicism, or at the very least a protentant sect of christianity.. it will not happen. I like where I am Odin already knows this. * looking both ways before I run...for the border....Chiwahwah! wah wah wah! Okay! lock is pick I am out of here, watch my back.. will leave you 6 bratwurst and a large plate of weiner schitzel on the side. Adios my friend, may Darth gerbil be with you!

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

To Charlemagne I have

To Charlemagne I have spilled my blood for christians before, protected a jew and sheltered bosnian muslims from orthodox serbians, stood up for an atheist; my tiny mind taught comparative religion. But nowhere on this forum have I lied and not said I was not pagan I have been tortured, beaten, starved, whipped and a few things you might not like as well. That I did not choose your way is not a problem for me. I treat ALL people the way I wish to be treated..until they prove they do not deserve it otherwise

You probably did not read far enough to figure out that my grandfather raised me as a "pagan!" I will not apologize for what I am ..neither will I convert for you either.. I did not convert for the muslims, why should I for you. But I will fight if you desire on a field of battle, and I will go to my gods singing my death song HAPPILY! You see once more so no one mistakes it! I am not afraid of DEATH! There Nothing you or any muslim can say to me or do to me to hurt me..that has not been done already. And truly after that, it is not so hard to take a life or loose your own. I also have never hidden from any of you the fact that I am a pagan.. it is stated everywhere.. or did some of you think I was kidding! But my parents were one of you. So I honor them, by honoring what is held dear by you. By tribal law, they had to give me up to be raised the old way. That way we do not all die out. And it pisses off the Great White Father in Washington something fierce I suppose. So feel as you feel, but you cannot impugn my name or my honor.. and my new believer is meant for the Norse not christianity I am a NEW Believer as far as they are concerned, O Defender of the Holy Roman Empire!

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

Re: Mohammed Drawings, Fundamentalist Faith & Freedom of Speech

"A New Believer" writes: Born to a Catholic and a Protestant, married and divorced a Muslim!. So now you're an unbeliever - I'm not surprised. Your tiny mind obviously could not make sense of it all.

I expect someone to call me a non-believing infidel dog!Non-believing infidel dog!

And yet, I would lay down my life to defend your right to believe as you believe.I doubt it; and in any case, people WILL believe what they want to believe, whether they have a right to believe it or not. Belief is not a matter of rights but of choices.

I will not try to convert you at the point of a sword! I will not torture anyone until they confess their sins and share my one and true faith, as I have heard it phrased before. I will not decry either of you as the "Great Satans", kidnap you, kill you, maim you, try to commit genocide on you or against you. I will tolerate you, bite my tongue when needed and turn the other cheek. Both groups talk about compassion, tolerance etc...and they are so sincere as long as it does not mean the other guy might be right or have the right to say something different. In a "democracy" ... a mind may be spoken. Charlemagne fought the pagans Danes and defeated them,and King Alfred fought the pagan Danes and defeated them. And now you claim democracy as your protection and right to exist!!!!! You don't seem to realize that many/most pagans are criminals in the eyes of Christians - criminals because they break the eternal law of God; criminals who, in the words of the apostle Paul "are deserving of (physical) death". And now all these criminal deliquents claim "human rights" and "democracy" for their protection! Don't forget the Nazi's were voted in by a democracy. Democracies can be entirely given over to criminals and criminal enterprises, like the democracy in the UK is run by criminals for the benefit of criminals. Those who entrust themselves to democracy are fools indeed. But the law of God remains unchanged and by it will all judged, whether democracy or no democracy.

----------------------------------------------------Mahomet is no prophet, Allah is no faith, Islam is no religion. Christ will destroy them all.

Re: Yes! Please Make War On The Infidels!

"The infidels of the US, China, Russia, Europe, Japan, India and Australia versus Islam!
The world's first twenty minute war!"

Will it really take that long?*spoken like a cranky 4 year old?* I thought we were just going to take off and nuke them from site! I wanted to do my nails that night! *pouts* Oh alright!

okay the end of my levity hope you will not issue a fatwa on me Gordonz - I have a stack of them as it is!

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

Yes! Please Make War On The Infidels!

The infidels of the US, China, Russia, Europe, Japan, India and Australia versus Islam!
The world's first twenty minute war!  

To KungFuMaster....Odin eats delicious muffins!

Oh I leave food for the Gods all the time, and when I return..it is gone!
Some people here will say that this is nonsense, but hear me out! Who is to say HOW the gods move about! If you feed a homeless person on the street or leave food out as an offering and you return and it is gone.. The God or Gods have it! Did not Christ walk amongst you, and also Bhudda. We believe that Odin, Thor and Tyr and many others walk around all the time, testing mankind . Will you pass or fail their test. Did you feed soeone, or leave a blanket? Did you cover up a god or an angel? It is a test of faith. To live everyday as if you are dying and can do a good thing or help someone, or give someone else comfort. Now I am making muffins so .. which ones shall I make for you? Yes, I had thought about muffins and cakes and cookies being angelic manna?
I know Asgard is full of them, I bet the Christian heaven is also!

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

To Blukat re Response Norse Pagan New Believer!

Ah Blukat sorry I was never a Protestant, that was my mother's honor..

If we believe the old ones and ancestors, such things are written as even they were written for the the other religions, except our gods walked amongst us and intermarried with us when it pleased them to do so. And Jesus Christ walked amongst the people also. mohmammed was merely a prophet, if that, so we will not discuss his attaining godhood it is irrelevant. we are only interesting ourselves in gods and demigods here. *winks*

I studied the religious branch of the Christian Faith and have taken my degrees in Theology and Comparative Religion. But I love witnessing and it seems the muslims do too. Though I am not very into proselytizing willy and nilly. I will bring blueberry, apple-cinnamon and orange-cranberry, pecan and almond ones. I will also leave a container of Gevalia Kaffee for you as well.(breakfast blend) Fellowship is a good thing. By the way I did not mention the Mormons because they are terrified of us since the pigs and chainsaw incident. I was having a roasted pig and he had not been dispatched yet, and the chase was on, when they came. We had banded together about 22 families for a blot and worship service and were killing about 4 pigs, when one of the kindred returned, Bjorn, a sweet and kindly soul but looking like a taller but rougher Aragorn, to the open doorway, chainsaw in hand, blood spattered about his body and long hair and looked in, saying to one of the other brothers.."You next!" ( he meant his pig was next), the Mormons were standing and sitting near that brother. They had heard the squealing, screams and heard the kicking and commotion out back. They looked at each other wildly and then at Bjorn, he smiled at them and stepped forward to shake hands. But he forgot to put the chainsaw down and walking towards them an intense visage with deepset eyes and a great smile, they panicked. The Mormons leapt up and began to rush for the door, nearly killing four of us as they began a mad scramble through the front door, running and screaming at the top of their lungs, as if for their very lives. Bjorn is a sensitive fellow, but very practical man he stepped on the towels I had down on the floor, but forgot to put down the chainsaw again and advanced to the door and said as he stood at the door smiling after them! "Please do not forgets to come back!" We all waved and smiled but by now they were insane with fear and began to beat each other senseless to get to the bicycles they had lined up by the side of the road. He turned to me and said,"Nice people! Too exciteable though, They shoulds relaxing more. I go finish pigs now!" Then he nodded his head and walked back out to finish slaughtering the pigs. Weeping, crying and gibbering they mounted the bicycles having bloodied each other with their own fists to get on them and away. When I saw two of the elders in town much later that day I invited them back for dinner that night, or the next as feasting went on the whole weekend., Bjorn and Sven were with me. They smiled. The Oldest Mormon elder, a young man of 22 peed his pants, then began to cry, Bjorn looked puzzled and handed him a handkerchief. The elder took it and used it shaking visibly. Bjorn stepped forward to help. He is such a gentle soul, really. When we noticed the other elder had started shaking and also and slowly peed in his pants. Bjorn told him to keep the handkerchief and we turned and headed for the store to pick up the jars of some damson plums and Sigrid. The Mormons never came back. come to think of it.. neither did the Baptists or the the Evangelicals. Never ever came back again, and I have always felt it was something we might have said, done or forgotten to do to make them more comfortable. I do so love company.

Oh well! We are always ready to welcome any muslims who care to come and talk!*smile*

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

Re: How much did Christianity inherit from Paganism

You said: Christian theology borrowed more than the archaic myth of the dying-resurrected Godman. Initiation by baptism, communion with the God through a holy meal that represented the flesh of the dead God, the Holy Spirit, monotheism, and immortality of the soul were all core beliefs of many ancient faiths. They were simply part of ancient Mediterranean culture.

This shows how little you know about Christianity. Baptism and communion are only symbols. Neither represents the core of Christianity and neither are fundamental to salvation (witnes the thief on the cross who was granted paradise without indulging in either). But since washing and eating are indulged in by all humans on an everyday basis, it is a rather ridiculous to ascribe washing and eating as being "borrowed from paganism".

As for your comments on Holy Spirit, monotheism, and immortality of the soul, traditional paganism indulged in a multiplicity of gods and was extremely unholy.

But the bible does record the knowledge of the true God as having existed on earth since Adam and long before Christ, so it is rather ridiculous, if not absurd, to suggest that just because some people had the right ideas about God before Christ, that this necessarily means that Christianity "borrowed" the ideas from paganism. It would be much truer to say that Christianity developed the correct ideas to their highest pinacle.

----------------------------------------------------Mahomet is no prophet, Allah is no faith, Islam is no religion. Christ will destroy them all.

To Norse Pagan New Believer:

I meant eye-witnesses when I said witnesses. I am sorry that you misunderstood the context I intended. But I see that you were once a Protestant Christian to take the term as you did.

I like a good story, especially with muffins. The Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t come here anymore, not since 6 of them together insisted I defend my faith, but the men among them became alarmed when the women showed interest in Christ and women’s rights. The men hurriedly ushered them out. Same for the 5 Mormons who carried out their 18 yr. old Fiji Islander elder who was in a fit of laughter after I snickered and commented on their expectation of how women will enjoy keeping house in Heaven. They don’t come here anymore, either.

If you came to my house, New Believer, with muffins at 5:00am, I’d listen to your stories. And we’d have a free exchange of discussion. I’m still laughing at the Thor and the mighty mortal woman story I read, but if you can match that, you’re welcome.

Bring the muffins (I favor blueberry) and I’ll provide the Caribou Coffee (Rich French Roast).

Re: Paganism before christianity! Oh yes we Norse have!

"To be sure, I don't think the pagans missed very much. Their various mythologies covered everything. However, Christianity has witnesses and mythologies do not"

Sorry Blukat but that is not correct, we pagans.. Norse do some proselytizing
I have tracts printed up myself, with pictures and runes. I make a basket of delicious baked goods and go around to visit.. Well I visit only one or two groups that usually come to see me at extremely early hours of the morning to talk about how only 144,000 Christians are going to heaven. I do not think that is fair. More room needs to be set aside in heaven, I think.
we also hold blots where we honor and toast the gods and worship and pray as well, feasting and gathering. we invite people who are not Norse to join in our fellowship as it were.

Excuse me,as I happen to be one of Freya's Witnesses.. May I testify and witness to You!...

!) Did you know that Odin hung on Yggdrasil for nine days, and nine nights and cutting himself with his spear let his holy blood fall into the great river..a sacrifice of himself unto himself, giving us the Runes?

2) Did you know that Forseti is the son of Baldur, the God of light and of Nanna, the Goddess of Purity, with parents of this kind and most noble nature it is no wonder that he is considered the wisest and mot gentle of the Gods of Asgard?

3) Did you know that the three Norns are believed to govern the fate of mankind, and that even the gods themselves are not free of these decrees?

4) After Ragnarok, Lif and his wife Lifhralsir shall walk upon an earth cleaned of hatred, evil and suffering!

5) Did you know that Freya, and her Valkyrs, are chooser of the slain. Together they transport the fallen heroes to her hall. this place is known as Sessrymir ( the many seated), in the
realms of Folksvang it lies. Here the dead are served by faithful and women who had died before marriage. She has followers amongst the women. In olden times women wewre lucky enough to go to war with their husbands into battle, being killed as their men were killed, or if surviving the battles throwing themselves upon there husbands funeral pyres. It is believed that if you die together, you will go side-by-side into Freya's joyful hall and reside as lovers forever.

6) Did you know that Freya's colours are the colours of the Harvest?

7) Did you know the Runic alphabet is called a "Futhark"?

8) Did you know that BiFrost is the bridge one must take on the way to Asgard?

9) Did you know that Freya traveling in Svartalfheim, the realm of teh dark elves, has to choose between Odin and Brisingaman? A hard thing..the love of something beautoful and a personal ornamentation ofver her loyalty to Odin, the Alfadir?

Well I do not usually proselytize unless I am tired of hearing about islam. But so you know I have tracts printed up and I travel early very early some Saturday and Sunday morning before even teh Jehovah's Witneses rise... and I knock on their doors until they open them, and then I repay the favor that the kindly did for me the week before at 7 am even unto 12 noon when they go out trolling around neighborhoods. I make sure I only go to houses of the peopole who awaken me to give me the good news.. so I give them the good news also! Yes Freya's Witnesses! we will come and leave our tracts..just like other leaves watchtowers and daily bread. But usually no one ever comes back after that... sad really, I thought they might like a free exchange of discussion. Sadly, though many disapprove of my 5 am rambles.. I get up very early..to pray adn greet the day!. *sighs* One would think they can handle it as well. After all 7 am on Saturday morning my one late sleeping in day is pretty darned early to hear the good new about Christ. *smile* But I am flexible so I bring muffins with me.

Well now you know Blukat, some of us pagans do witness. there are 6 of us like minded individuals.. we feel it only fair to return the favor. Is that not a good idea!

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

Paganism before Christianity

To be sure, I don't think the pagans missed very much. Their various mythologies covered everything. However, Christianity has witnesses and mythologies do not.
Besides, what Christ preached, paganism did not preach. Christ preached salvation. Buddhism and Hinduism have souls reincarnating forever because they understood that souls can't make it to heaven on their own. Islam preaches a carnal heaven where men have sex with chained women, but the soul does not have an earthly body (which is only useful in an earthly life).
Yes, pagans thought of everything except salvation.
Christians have witnesses that Christ was killed and that he died. And they have witnesses that he returned to life. Pagans had no witnesses. They had wishful thinking.
Muslims, through Muhammad, borrowed much from Jews and Christians without understanding what they were talking about. And, in fact, Allah was the word for the pagan moon god of the Arabs.
It is noteworthy that the pagans gave up their religions when Christianity supplanted them.
Christians have their own Scripture with witnesses to its truths. Islam is still a pagan religion that cherry-picked ignorantly through Judaism and Christianity.
Paganism certainly did precede Christianity, but no savior preceded Christ, nor taught as he taught, nor performed miracles of healing. Pagans have their myths, but Christians have their witnesses, which pagans never had.

Big Mo's Show!

I hate rap music.. not a friend of hip hop either..but decided to write this song! ( My apologies going out to all rappers black, hispanic, asian, white and native american. I May not like your music.. but YOU do have the right to write it, sing it and play it! So I hope they will take this tongue in cheek, as well as being free expression. I think will!)

BIG MO's SHOW!

chorus:

Excuse me. Excuse me! We doan care bout
Mohammed 'n his floozies! 72 word
Excuse me. Excuse me! We doan care bout
Mohammed 'n his floozies! 72 word

muslims on brussels journal always throwing down,
tellin us bout mohammed another muslim clown.

talk bout mohammed put fatwa on ya ass
sayin they capping anyone who doan believe they way

hitting on little children ya know that that's a sin
den ya yaself an olda honey, try to get it up agin

bringing down a caravan just ta get the bling
killing all the peeps who his praises dey woan sing

followers running round like da crips 'n bloods ya see
doin suicide drivebys ta get them on TV

cryin 'n lyin 'n sayin it ain't fair
making islamophobes 'n now they wanna care

number 'n dey religin they allus changing
see
dey was a lil over 1 billion now they say it 43 ( billion served) word

no drinkin, no funnin, no happiness ya see
dey womens get no lovin, 'n dey men is all UGLY!

da mullahs 'n da imams lyin beotches all ya see
ifn ya doan believe me ask Danes, dey tell ya free

da mullah o da imam he gets a fire in his ass
den dey callin fo da followers to blow up on ya ass

but da followers of MO hammed dey aint
prejudice ya see
cause de killing eveybody, je like you'n me

puttin down some heavy bullshit in the press 'n on tv
cause they doan wans people talkin bout bads bout MO hammed doan ya see

two young homies in thailand, set ta music getting down
some words from da quran they thought
was kinda sound

in da cd dat dey cut was no cursin or lewdness
now de muuslims in Thailand wants ta chops off dey bizness

like dey wasna makin fun dey was jes diggin it ya know
word up! dey was singin bout it bein a stone groove

now they runnin fo dey lives
damn man!
good or bad wit dese muslim ya allus gonna loose

slayin paintahs 'n cartoonists, writers 'n all de peaceful peeps
makes ya wanna bitch slap dat MO hammed
n hiz crazee freakin peeps

imams tellin peeps we wuz wipin asses wit
korans on tv
cause I heard it on al jazeera on da 6 o'clock ya see!

lyin 'n dyin'n bringin peeps down, but he ain' writ no quran, cause he couldn' put words down

like da rumor game it wuz written 'n I show ya all about
cause he say the words came from god to hiz mouth

then de passed onta samir, n ahmed n jaleel, n achmed n yusuf n tommy n jibreel

we gots no clue as ta what was first said
cuz fifty of them arabs been writin down instead.

the beginnin of the prayer, they wuz facing jerusalem, den his peeps in his tribe said wait a minute slim

dey had a little somepin at da Ka'aba going down. running tickets n shows fo one o dem old gods in de town.

so da prhpeht he wen 'n changed it, so they visitin at da ka'aba evey year
last year a couple hunnert trample in da groun I hear

so if like religion wit lots of juicy stuff
lyin n' cheatin' pedophilic stuff
MO hammeds waitin at da mosque wit all da bs stuff

UP HIZ! WORD!

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

Salvation, Egypt, 1300 BC

Salvation, Egypt, 1300 BC
This ancient papyrus shows a Dead Guy's judgment in the Egyptian Hall of Two Truths, on the left, the Dead Guy's soul is led to the scales of judgment by the jackal-headed God Anubis, who also, in the center, adjusts the Scales of Justice on which the Dead Guy's heart (the location of his "maat,' = goodness) is measured.
The monster Ammut crouches at the scales, hoping the Dead Guy fails the test, in which case Ammut with swallow his heart, and Dead Guy will suffer torment for a few eons, then die.

At the mid-right the Ibis-headed Thoth writes down the outcome of the judgment The Dead Guy did OK -- he was declared "maa-kheru" = "justified" -- so he's lead off by the God Horus to stand before Osiris, who grants him eternal life.
[Papyrus of Hunefer, c 1280 BC, from Thebes.]

Jesus brought salvation. Osiris brought salvation 1,400 years earlier.

Want to know more? Sure you do. Let's go look.

Yeah, but isn't all this just whacko junk history?
Modern scholars don't think so.

And the early Christians didn't think so either. Listen to Christian apologist St. Justin Martyr, writing to a Pagan in the second century AD,

How much did Christianity inherit from the Pagans?

How much did Christianity inherit from the Pagans?
Everything

The POCM web site introduces you to the mainstream modern scholarship about Christianity's origins in ancient Pagan religion.

You already know Christmas trees and Easter eggs were originally Pagan, and you probably know the traditional mid-winter and spring timing of the two holidays was Pagan too. Mildly interesting. Not what you'll find here.

What you'll discover here is that Christianity inherited everything from the Pagans. The core of Christianity -- the worship of a dying Godman who is resurrected, ascends into heaven and brings salvation to mankind -- was also the core of a number of ancient Pagan religions that began in the Near East two thousand years before Jesus.

Christian theology borrowed more than the archaic myth of the dying-resurrected Godman. Initiation by baptism, communion with the God through a holy meal that represented the flesh of the dead God, the Holy Spirit, monotheism, and immortality of the soul were all core beliefs of many ancient faiths. They were simply part of ancient Mediterranean culture.

Christianity also borrowed elements of Jesus' mythology: the virgin birth, the miracles (including turning water into wine, walking on water, and especially healing the sick) were all common elements of pre-Christian Pagan religions. Mithras had 'em. So did Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, and Orpheus. And more. And they had them centuries before Christianity was a twinkle in Saint Paul's eye.