In the Wall Street Journal (thanks to Sam), world-renowned Middle East scholar Bernard Lewis echoes some observations about possibilities regarding Iran that I made in FrontPage over a week ago:
What is the significance of Aug. 22? This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to "the farthest mosque," usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.A passage from the Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11th-grade Iranian schoolbook, is revealing. "I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one another's hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours."
In other words, "we will give you islam, or we will give you DEATH. And to think most people call this a religion........
Those crazy Muslims. We win if we win, We win if we die, either way we will try to kill everyone.
They openly are trying do just this. Why does anyone consider appeasment, negotiation, or resolution???
Daily the Muslims are slaughtering people worldwide and yet we have people protesting in free countries supporting these thugs. go figure.
When all **** breaks loose in the west, these “friends” of the enemy will be given a choice. Firing squad or a one way ticket to their favorite enemy country. Can you imagine the looks on their faces when they are given this ultimatum?
I say, let them , the islamics, turn into eternal death. After all, if there's no life in islam, there sure isn't in death.
Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom.
...............
See, President Bush was right--we *do* all want freedom! Unfortunately, for some, freedom really does mean slavery--this is not just a literary device, no matter how powerful.
Incidently, I am not sneering at Mr. Bush. I truly wish that his view of the world were correct. I do think that the yearning for freedom is a widespraed human desire. Unfortunately, there are evil ideologies that hardly consider freedom a desirable goal, and are more than willing to try to convert the rest of us at swordpoint.
There is hope!
Last night on Fox News, Hannity and Colmes had a very interesting guest on named, Walid Shoebat. Walid has written a book entitled, "Why I Left Jihad". I haven't read his book yet, but his story was fascinating and very encouraging; because if this guy can change, then other terrorists can change, too.
He also has a website that everyone should check out: http://www.shoebat.com
I am in no way affiliated with Mr. Shoebat; I simply wanted to share his remarkable story with others. And if you don't buy his book, then please take a look at his website.
And get this -- he said that it was his WIFE who started leading him in a different direction by encouraging him to seek out "love", not hate, and now he supports Israel, instead of seeking it's total destruction.
Love can conquer all.
And please pray for Walid Shoebat (that is if you pray), because I'm sure there are those who would like to see him dead. What a courageous man!
It's rule or ruin with Khomeini-Ahmadinejad type Muslims. They ultimately will bring the Muslim Mideast to a Jim-Jones-Jonestown moment. Unlike the leadership of the former Soviet Union, such people cannot be reasoned with. If in the past, so-called "moderate Muslims" have not spoken out loudly against such madness because of "solidarity" with their umma brethren, they had better find their voice soon for the sake of their own survival in the future.
It's rule or ruin with Khomeini-Ahmadinejad type Muslims. They ultimately will bring the Muslim Mideast to a Jim-Jones-Jonestown moment. Unlike the leadership of the former Soviet Union, such people cannot be reasoned with. If in the past, so-called "moderate Muslims" have not spoken out loudly against such madness because of "solidarity" with their umma brethren, they had better find their voice soon for the sake of their own survival in the future.
I always tell my wife think of Iran as a giant truck bomb...its time for more to wake up.
Wow champ,
One guy out of the billion muslims renounces islam and all of a sudden love can conquer all? You are missing the point, most of them voted against the jihad before they voted for it. When this war is over we are not returning to the status quo i.e. pre 9-11 thought process. These guys write books and appear on a few enemy msm programs and just like that you are willing to gamble our lives on the idea that terrorists can change too. Mr. Shoebat seems honorable to us but to the enemy he is an apostate. There will never be a moderate voice coming from islam. Moderates are snuffed out as soon as they open their mouths, so it is no wonder we rarely hear from them. Case in point, Onwar Sadat. War is Deceit.
storagemanager-
That is an excellent mind image that conveys reality.
Commentary
Is Hezbollah launching Iran's Armageddon?By Omar Fadhil
It's common wisdom to say that the war between Hezbollah and Israel is a regional struggle that also includes Iran and Syria, who have supported and supplied Hezbollah. What seems to be less understood is that this is the first war between the Islamic Republic of Iran and Israel, via Iran's proxy Hezbollah, and that its overarching purpose is to advance Iran's ambitions to export the Islamic revolution throughout the Middle East.
Thus, while religion has always played an important role in prior Arab-Israeli wars, this time it has moved to center stage. It is the theological aspect of this conflict that makes it so explosive and could lead to its expansion.
As an observer of the conflict from Iraq, I see the signs that Iran may be starting to launch the mullahs' version of an Armageddon, exploiting the religious beliefs of devout Shiites in the region. While this may sound more the stuff of prophecies than international relations, it is important to understand - especially in countries such as Lebanon and Iraq that have large Shiite populations.
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran and the Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr in Iraq are both devout believers in the "Imam" of Shia Islam. Also known as "Imam Mehdi" - hence the name of Sadr's militia, the Mehdi Army - he was the 12th grandson of the Prophet Muhammad. According to certain branches of Shia Islam, the return of the "hidden Imam" must be prepared by his followers, in a particular sequence of events. Chaos and rampant violence in the region are supposed to be among signs leading to the main battle in which the Imam will return to lead Shiites to victory.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/15193481.htm
Walid Shoebat has had an official link from this site to his website for as long as I have been reading here. His reputation is good.
Assalamau-Laikum all,
Jews have had an interesting history, that they suffered from the muslim is undeniable...but that they suffered from the christian...you trried to keep that quiet didn't you...so let me enlighten you.
Through Constantine Christians, for the first time since the destruction of the Second Temple, Jerusalem was ruled by a people who considered it holy. The sites where scenes of the New Testament had taken place were sanctified; first among them Golgotha, the site of the crucifixion.
The Temple mount however was preserved in its pitiful state as a pile of rubble to serve as visible testimony to God's punishment of the Jews. They were granted access to the city only on the ninth day of Av, when Jews commemorate the destruction of the Temple, wearing sackcloth and ashes to mourn their humiliation. Their pathetic presence shows them weeping over the broken stones of the ruined Temple.
Along came Islam and the world was divided into "Christendom" in the West and the empire of Islam in the East, Jerusalem was once again caught in the cross-fire. Jerusalem is sanctified as the "stairway to heaven". This is where the father Abraham had been tested and where he had been commanded to sacrifice his son, the father of the Arab people Ishmael. Also It was from here that Mohammed the Prophet ascended to heaven and it was here that he received the law.
The 17th sura of the Quran says "Blessed be Allah who made his servant go by night from the Holiest Mosque to the Furthest Away Mosque." He was transported on a winged horse (Al Buraq) from Mecca (The holiest mosque) to Al Aksa (The furthest away mosque) in Jerusalem. It was on the Temple Mount (Haram al Sharif) that Mohammed prayed with the six prophets and he ascended to heaven.
In Mecca Mohammed had courted the support of the Jews, but to no avail. Instead In 638 CE, six years after the death of the prophet, the Islamic armies reached the gates of Jerusalem. The city fell and so began a period of Islamic rule. We changed the physical appearance of the city for Jerusalem, is a symbol of God's favour, Abd El Malik built the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount.
With a Dome of almost identical proportions to that of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the golden top of the shrine outshone the silver roof which stood on Golgotha. The magnificent building, with its eight walls and gates representing the eight doors to heaven, looked triumphantly on the six walled church which stood on the facing hill.
Ofcourse the conquest of Jerusalem by Muslims was an outrage, the theological implications of this conquest intolerable. Pope Urban II, instigated the First Crusade, it was inconceivable for the Holy city to be held in the hands of the infidel.
Interestingly, the Crusaders encountered the JEWISH communities of the Rhineland on the way and they MASSACERED the Jewish communities of Mainz and Speyer. The violent affirmation of Christian truth was first directed at the Jew.
At Jerusalem, they marched around the city, attacked the city, they broke through and massacred everyone inside. Again The JEWS were rounded up into the synagogue and burnt alive.
The Dome of the Rock and the As Aksa Mosque were converted into Churches: Templum Domini and Templum Solomon. The Moslem Shrines were now subservient to the victorious faith. Jerusalem now became a tangible symbol of Christian dominance in the struggle between the two "empires of faith".
By Allah’s grace Christian dominance was short lived. In 1187 Saladin, reconquered the city. He allowed Christian residents of the city free passage out, in return for a ransom fee. The paying of this tax was symbolic of the superiority of the recipient in the eyes of God. The city was once again converted into a Moslem city. Christian buildings and Churches which had been built by the Crusader kingdom were now deliberately converted into Mosques shrines and Madrassas
So come on the Israelis...don't just take it out on the muslim...punish the christian too...your forefathers demand it.
How limited is Bernard Lewis. One more slightly-off piece. There were so many things he does not say, that he could and should have said.
He might, for example, have explained that this is not just a matter of a mad Ahmadinejad (or behind him, Khameinei), but of an entire regime. He might have gone further. He might have epxlained that Islam uncrompisingly divides the world between Believer and Infidel, between Dar al-Islam and Dar al-=Harb. He did no such thing. He might have used his great prestige in some quarters to note that beyond this general hostiity, and hatred, of which, in sheer numbers, Hindus have been possibly the greatest immediate victims, the Jews have a special place of hatred -- see Sheik al-Azhar Tantawi's 700-page complilaton of Muslim eschatology, in which Dajjal, or Satan, either is a Jew, or is at least accompanied by a retinue of 70,000 Jews. The hatred for Jews in the Islamic world, that Lewis has consistently presented as mostly a twentieth-century devleopment, a copying, as ye puts it often, and so misleadingly, of European antisemitism, when if Hitler had never existed,had antisemitism in Western Christendom never existed, there was a completely different basis for Jew-hatred in Islam that has never disappeared, and cannot be changed for it is, like the more general hatred of Infidels, part of Islam's essence, and not merely tangential.
Why didn't Lewis do this? Why doesn't he even hint at such? I don't know. But again and again, this intelligent man has been fooled. He was fooled into supporting the Oslo Accords, which had he taken seriously the tenets of Islam, he would have seen as one more treaty of Hudaibiyyah. Had he taken seriously Islam, and not confused Islam with what Hilal Inalcik, or his suave friends and patrons in Amman or elsewhere (who, in addition to whatever personal charm they may possess, have a special virtue: as native speakers of Arabic, or Persian, or Turkish, they -- and not any of us, poor Infidels -- are capable of appreciating Lewis' allusions, his fluency in their languages, and intellectual vanity is clearly a problem with Lewis -- he wants to be appreciated, and for some things, a very limited audience of Muslism are the only ones capable of laughing at his bons mots, his paronomastic play, his allusions to this or that event in Islamic history. That vanity helps explain, but does not justify, his consistent misreading of Muslim attitudes and acts, over the past 30 years).
Such an article should have had an important coda. It should have consisted in an admission by Lewis that, after a lifetime's study of Islam, he has realized that he, even he, had many things wrong. He never gave the mistreatment of non-Muslms under Islam its due; still worse, he was dismissive of Bat Ye'or when he should, and could, have championed her. He fell for the Oslo Accords -- was a real enthusiast for them -- when all kinds of people saw right through them to the inevitable denouement, and it was not a denouement that depended on the personal hideousness of Yassir Arafat. He believed in that Light Unto the Muslim Nations Project at a time when others (J. B. Kelly put in a single word, in a single conversation, to a certain person in the Pentagon) were warning it would "end in tears." Lewis continues to act as if the inevitable transfer of power from Sunnis to Shi'a would be acquiesced in by the former, and accompaneid by a spirit of sweet reasonableness and compromise by the latter. Has he forgotten what Muslim masses are like -- and did he forget the rise in Shi'a numbers, and the placement of the oilfields? Did he forget, in other words, the details of Iraq itself, or the origins, duration, and force of the Sunni-Shi'a split? Did he think for one minute that any Shi'a-ruled Iraq could conceivably serve as a Light Unto the Muslim Nations, if those selfsame Muslim nations were inhabited by, and ruled by, Sunni Muslims suspicious of, or even full of contempt and hatred for, Shi'a Islam?
He had a chance for a clearing of the air, a chance to explain that if he, even he, after more than 60 years of study of Islam, had allowed himself to lose his head, not once but repeatedly, and had never quite gotten the essence of Islam, its persistence (in Turkey, object of his best studies, Kemalism is impermanent and always on the defensive; Islam keeps returning, raising its head, because it is permanent, permanent in the primitivized minds of too many men).
Instead, he gave us a Millerite warning. Not bad. Scary. Important.
But not nearly enough.
You Get
These Moslems can't lose; this is why Islamism is such a hot growth sector.
Join up with the holy Islam, and you get to tell the rest of the world it’s wrong wrong wrong and you’re gonna kick everybody’s ass. By having joined, you’ve come clean with yourself that you’re sick but you have a get well plan: world takeover. And that’s pretty heady stuff.
Dahsing about the world in a jet-set lifestyle, mulling plans to shoot or stab or saw or bomb or poison or just plain choke to death, you get to wear cool fatigues and shout angry slogans. You get to kick gravel on the legs of leggy white girl beauties wearing thongs on the hot beaches of Australia, and angrily denounce them as sluts. You get to rape them, and then go home to your government paid apartment to open all those government checks and then you get to re-emerge onto the Australio-Arab Street to denounce the government as doomed to Sharia. Back in the free apartment for a rest, you get to imbibe man-boy love and still be a man and not gay, cuz you get what the Sunnah sub-text really teaches, beyond the point of Allah's misogynist commandments, you get know where the next step goes.
You get to feel superior cuz you’re a supremacist and a right one at that.
You get it, cuz you’re a Moslem. But, if you really do get it, and you unfortunately get killed in the Jihad War, or fortunately get to kill yourself in order to kill others in the Jihad War, then you get a pile of fresh 11 yr old virgins, rivers of flowing wine, fruits and dates glistening with dew, racks of lamb, and smooth-faced 9 yr old boys with kiss curls.
610 * 623 * 732* 1066* 1215 * 1453 * 1492 * 1683 * 1928 * 1938 * 1948 * 1996 * 2001
You get it; we don’t get it. That’s a big problem. For us, at least.
Tgusa,
Agree with you absolutely on that. Champ, love never conquered these barbarians who make their kids saw off the heads of animals at the age of 5 or so. You think love can conquer a child who has been brought up like that ?
naseem has posted something worthwhile for a change.
I heard Walid Shoebat in a radio interview in 2004 and I believe him to be genuine.However one moderate does not a movement make and from what I recall his story is one of a personal rejection of the unseemly elements of Islam, rather than a rejection on Islamic grounds, which, as Robert has oft stated here, is important in order to convince the jihadis.
Regardless he and those like him need our support and protection. Hopefully more brave , moderate Human Beings with the misfortune of being born Muslim will hear his story and like him and find the courage to reject Islam.
Hugh,
Would Lewis have been so prominently published had he written all of those things that you desire?
Probably not.
The understanding that you wish all Americans to share about islam isn't going to come all in a flash, it won't be as if America has some trip to Damascus experience. Not unless some atomic flash should occur, at which time a visceral, emotional outpouring would occur. But absent that atomic flash, it's going to take years for ordinary Americans to fully grasp that islam is not like Christendom, that there is something deeply pathological about it.
Instead of lameting all the things that Lewis didn't mention, take a glance at the things he did.
La Frontera.....Walid Shoebat became a Christian.
Tokyo Rose Naseem wrote..This is where the father Abraham had been tested and where he had been commanded to sacrifice his son, the father of the Arab people Ishmael. Also It was from here that Mohammed the Prophet ascended to heaven and it was here that he received the law.
Nice try....but it was ISAAC....not Ishmael the son of the handmaid.
The only thing I can say for sure is that the worst is yet to come. We are not fighting this war smartly and history shows that the failings of leadership lead to escalating world conflict. We might as well be fighting ghosts for all the good it does to fight a war on "terror". When the world is ready to confront the scourge of Islam, then we can win. Until then, expect bloodshed upon bloodshed, and all of it with the thumbprint of Muslims and their cultural absolutism -- they believe they have a right to everything that is yours and mine -- a right given to them by Allah because we are the unbelievers.
Until we are prepared to name and kill the enemy, we are going to lose battle after battle. Propaganda is winning and the front groups for nation-sanctioned terrorism are having the desired effects. The next wave will undoubtedly be weapons of mass destruction and most likely in the hands of more "fringe" groups in the Islamic world. It's a simple strategy that succeeds so often, what is to keep Tehran from pressing the jihad to its Apocalyptic line?
We can't bargain with Evil forever and expect to not pay the price.
Well, I guess the only thing we have to do is to wait for the things to come (and ofcourse, visit your local recuitment office).
"Saudi King Arrives in Turkey; First Visit in 40 Years"
http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-08-08-voa46.cfm
OT:
CAIR thugs rough up a film-maker at pro-Hizballah rally.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23745
By Patrick Poole
FrontPageMagazine.com | August 8, 2006
An attendee of the “Stop the Terror Rally” sponsored by the Council for America-Islamic Relations – Ohio held at the Federal Courthouse in downtown Columbus, Ohio, on Friday July 28 says she was twice assaulted by CAIR’s National Vice-Chairman, Dr. Ahmad Al-Akhras, when she asked too many questions about the organization’s apparent support for Hezbollah terrorists. Fortunately, she caught it all on tape and has put the video online so the public can see the reaction of one of CAIR’s top officials.
tgusa -
You stated, "and just like that you are willing to gamble our lives".
Ah NO! I'm not quite sure where you came up with that notion, but that is not what I said, nor is it what I intended to say. Sounds like you have an overactive imagination, my friend.
I would never "gamble our lives", and I would very much like an apology.
What a thoroughly unpleasant posting. And I suppose Christians likewise are to punish "the Jews" because back in 614 some opened the gates of Jerusalem to the Persians in 614 and assisted in the ensuing massacre. And Hindus are to hate "the Christians" because of activities of the East India Company in the 17th century - or is that too recent for your taste? And [fill in whichever group of infidels] are to punish [whichever other group of infidels] because of whatever happened hundreds of years ago.
I've got news for you. It is only Islam that carries its poisonous hatreds around with it, nursing them as it goes. Civilized people don't deal in notions of collective guilt; moreover, they eschew past antagonisms and get on with their lives. It's Muslims who are naming their rockets Khaybar-1. And, revealingly, at Khaybar the shame belongs to the Muslims. They don't even need a grievance; they just require the presence of non-Muslims.
As for the notion that whatever happens is what God wants to happen - rather feebly suggested as a (non-rational) reason for the collapse of the crusader kingdoms - if whatever happens is what God wants, why does he whack the Muslims in, for example, Bangladesh with natural disasters such as floods as regularly as clockwork? He must really dislike the Muslims.
FYI tgusa -
My post regarding Walid Shoebat was NOT to get everyone to relax their posture towards this religion of hate -- my hope was that other MUSLIMS might find the courage to "get out" of this matrix of hate too. Plain and simple. And next time, try ASKING me what my intentions were in posting something -- don't assume.
Call me a dreamer, but don't ever call me careless!
Yojimbo's point about Naseem's posting is very important. It is Muslims, and Islamic identity politics, that are calling for special group rights, and pressing group grievances. Jews do not do this worldwide - and the proof is in the evidence that outside of Israel and the neighboring Arab nations, the Jews never attack Muslims for any reason, even in self-defense. Muslims, on the other hand, and universally violent toward Jews virtually everywhere the two communities rub against each other.
The Muslims, like our barbarian in Seattle, always blame honor, anger, shame or some other childish emotion that any thinking person would be able to control. Muslims are always whining like spoiled child-idiots about perceived grievances, past events or things happening elsewhere, and using them as justification for all sorts of despicable acts, and then after the fact pretending they are uninvolved, or the perpetrators are outside their community norms.
Naseem, this is why they Jews do not need to punish the Christians. I don't know any Christians who have done me any wrong. I don't hold grudges for centuries, and my people to not search their past for an opportunity to hate someone. Muslims, on the other hand, cannot escape the mad ravings of their cult's founders, and have been suckling at the teat of grievance so long that they assume that is how everyone else thinks, or should I say reacts, because there is precious little evidence at this point that Muslims are much more than stimulus-response automatons, at least the ones who are running the show.
I'm wondering how moderate the muslims will become if after a horrendous attack on our country if: We Americans refuse to sell food, gas, ANYTHING to muslims. Have to take the law into our own hands (I'm sure muslims would hide like roaches with the light on if something happened) when we see them out and about. Become vigilante to preserve ourselves ie. bring back the hanging trees. Take over their businesses. Round them up.
I'm having a "Mad Max" thought going on at the moment. I would think to prevent this, muslims who enjoy our freedoms would turn over any muslims out to commit atrocities against us.
muslims....you'd best think about what you do and DON'T do.
Let's discuss this on August 24th and compare notes on what happened.
champ, then other terrorists can change, too.
Sounds like a big gamble to me. I suppose with your reasoning, (not that this analogy applies to Mr. Shoebat) if only Jeff Dahmer would have stopped eating human meat, wrote a book on it then made the rounds at the msm, that would make everything ok? I would rather have what you call an over active imagination, than no imagination at all. Apologize for stating the truth. Naw.
My point is… You seem more interested in finding that elusive moderate than focusing on the “Giant” problems at hand. My intention was “Not” to hurt your feelings.
...............If mohammad, the plagarist genocidal slave-taking pedophile, walked or rode on camels, only used primitive hand- made weapons, and squatted and pooped on the side of the road like a dog, why aren't all muslims walking, only using primitive hand-made weapons, and squatting and pooping on the side of the road like a dog???
mohammad didn't have access to any modern weapons whatsoever.........
Quijybo:
Trying to convince Naseem of logic is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It will only annoy both you and the pig :)
"Tokyo Rose Naseem wrote..This is where the father Abraham had been tested and where he had been commanded to sacrifice his son, the father of the Arab people Ishmael."
"Nice try....but it was ISAAC....not Ishmael the son of the handmaid."
Posted by: storagemanager at August 8, 2006
StorageManager - Naseem and others ignore that ISAAC even exists, because they don't want to be reminded that the Arab race would not even occur have it not been for the Father of the Jews.
"But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."
The Egyptian slave Hagar, bore Ishmael and founded the Arab people.
Abraham and Sarah had Isaac, Isaac is Hebrew for "GOD'S Laughing"...
It is time to shine the light upon evil!
KnightHawk
tooproudusa -
But you DIDN'T state the truth -- you lied, and for that you should be sorry. And Dude, you did not hurt my feelings -- I simply hate liars.
Typical liberal,
Incapable of engaging in a simple a debate without resorting to name calling.
How pathetic. Incredibly after your first post I actually considered an apology. How stupid of me! BTW I actually like it when people like you lose control and call me names. Thanks for making my day!
I saw Walid Shoebat this weekend on Zola Levitt. He coined a bumber sticker
when he said "the Palestinian cause has become a psychosis".
Dan,
I agree with this statement of yours:
"it's going to take years for ordinary Americans to fully grasp that islam is not like Christendom, that there is something deeply pathological about it" -- and I would add that this goes for all Westerners, not just Americans.
But I don't necessarily agree with this statement of yours:
"Not unless some atomic flash should occur, at which time a visceral, emotional outpouring would occur."
An atomic flash, like any terrorist attack, is a datum, and data do not speak for themselves, but have to be interpreted. I think, sadly, that there will continue to be millions among us who, even after a major attack (whether chemical, biological, or nuclear), will still surgically detach Islam itself from the perpetrators. Nothing short of seeing masses of Muslims actually rounding up Infidels and slaughtering them in American streets will convince certain of our millions ("elites" and non-"elites" alike).
An internet website engenders an aura that can be dangerously misleading, causing its participants to think they are much, much more than the tiny cell they in fact are among the nearly infinite interstices of the Web -- let alone amongst the world at large.
Sorry I called you a liar -- forgive me? But I don't like being accused of "gambling our lives".
Hey, I don't want things to go south between you and I because we're both on the same team. We're both Americans, we both support Israel, and we both like pizza (inside joke). Oh, and I think we're both conservatives, because I ain't no liberal. That part actually made me laugh.
Friends...
champ
Agreed. Sorry about calling you that nasty name.
FULL TEXT BERNARD LEWIS HERE--->>>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.quotations/browse_thread/thread/87d3e1c59d03db58/12fd5312b9f24d74?lnk=st&q=&rnum=2#12fd5312b9f24d74
If there's no difference to these goons between "the victory of Islam in the world" and martyrdom, I say we take the easy course and give them martyrdom. They will apparently not mind in the least. Were we to feel guilty about exterminating them en masse, it should help that we're really making them happy.
On an OT note, I see the troll Naseem is back with her constant broken-record reminder of long-past atrocities committed by Christians, and I agree that she can only be ignored. It will never dawn on her, despite continual explicit rejoinders, that Christians are not lopping off folks' heads right now, they aren't a problem for anyone in any corner of the globe, and there is nothing in Christian doctrine that supports or encourages violence or totalitarianism. In addition, Christians uniformly condemn atrocities committed in the name of God, including and maybe even especially those committed by nominal Christians. None of this can be jokingly claimed regarding Islam or Muslims, but Naseem is oblivious to the distinction.
Perhaps she is just nuttier than Chinese chicken salad, but I say she is worse than that. There's simply no use in engaging her in discourse.
I hereby lay claim to the pretty green glass that will be soon be found in Mr. Ahmadinejad's neighborhood if he is stupid enough to try to erase Israel from the map. I think the glass will be safe to handle in about 100 years or so. It will make really nice jewelry.
Naseem - I think the story of Ishmael as the outcast half-son of Abraham is merely an attempt by the early Jewish scribes to derive an historical and cultural narrative that defined not just their own existence and identity, but also their relationships with the surrounding peoples and cultures. Hagar and Ishmael are plot devices to create a foundational distinction between the civilised Jews and the child-sacrificing sand pirates who surrounded them.
Moslems, beginning with Moh'd, were unable to make that vital distinction between mythology and religion, and so in Islam we have a culture that considers the illiterately plagiarized Judeo-Christian scriptures to be the verbatim word of God, and the subsequent deliverance and redemption of an 'Ishmaelite' ideology that was originally only meant to be a delineation between early Jews and Gentiles.
Of course Jews and Christians made, and still make, the same kinds of false literalisms - The universe wasn't created in six days, Noah or Nuh is a misappropriated fictional character from the Babylonian saga of Gilgamesh, and so on. It is almost impossible, for subscibers to any faith, to figure out with any certainty where the mythology ends and history begins.
But even if one takes as read the notion that the Arab people are the scorned malcontents of the Abrahamic covenant, it is an impossible leap of faith to suggest that descendants of 7th century marauding bandits are the righteous usurpers of the Jewish homelands. The Miraj is obviously a dream (or nightmare, or epilectic seizure), Buraq was no doubt inspired by the guilt-ridden, jarring image of Aisha's favourite toy upon the marital bed, the 'furthermost Mosque' could be anywhere, but certainly wasn't al-Aqsa because it hadn't been built yet, and the references to seven levels and eight doors to heaven are clearly remnants from ancient Eastern and Middle-Eastern natural philosophies and contemplations on the role of octagonal symmetry in sensory perception and consciousness.
The problems of Islam are largely caused by its misappropriation of somebody else's religion. Thus Moslems see that the Jewsish people are the 'Chosen Ones' of the Jewish religion, and so cry "Racism!", when of course every native religion considers its native people to be the chosen ones of their native lands and deities.
Farsi-speakers such as yourself should consider Zoroastrianism or some other native religion as their cultural roots (or were your ancestors Hindu?), not the Nazist Judeophobic Arab supremacist deathcult of the "Submitters". Arabs should consider Lat, Uzza, and Manat, the third.
If everyone just stuck to their own stupid religions instead of trying to aspire to the hardly-perfect monotheism of the Jews, they wouldn't be suffering this kind of competition, whether it comes from Christians, Nazis or Moslems. There wouldn't be any antisemitism because nobody would care less what some tiny Mediteranean tribe did three thousand years ago.
But they never forced their religion on us. We, Christians and Moslems, took it upon us by our own free will, and the Jews have subsequently been persecuted ever since; to paraphrase Moh'd, too often a "persecution worse than death".
Christendom has sought, ineffectively and incompletely, to redeem itself of its crimes against this people. Like the ancient Persians/Babylonians, we've tried to make the transition from being persecutors of the Jews to becoming their deliverers. But Islam cannot do so, because it has screwed up the Jewish religion even more than we did, and now you're stuck with an immutable, literalistic, god-sent Nazism that can only be resolved by its own defeat, or its own 'Final Solution'.
So quote all the religion and history you like. Islam is the self-avowed enemy of all non-Moslems, especially Jews... So those of us who see your cult for what it is will defend them as we defend ourselves, and if necescary, if it is forced upon us, we will destroy Islam. The odds are stacked against you. Only 20% of Humanity has been infected by the germs of Islamonazism. The other 80% is only just beginning to take the measure of our enemy. You cannot win. You will not succeed. At worst, millions of germs will die.
How can you trust anyone who wouldn't eat a BLT?
Nassemsostupid....Open your eyes up sweetie...By the way where's that bellydance?
By the way Naseemstress...What was your pedaphile prophet smoking when he rode a horse with a human head to heaven...some of that Afghani opium?
Television,
I agree with this statement of yours:
"An atomic flash, like any terrorist attack, is a datum, and data do not speak for themselves, but have to be interpreted. I think, sadly, that there will continue to be millions among us who, even after a major attack (whether chemical, biological, or nuclear), will still surgically detach Islam itself from the perpetrators. Nothing short of seeing masses of Muslims actually rounding up Infidels and slaughtering them in American streets will convince certain of our millions ("elites" and non-"elites" alike)."
I sometimes think the allies won World War II because we had wonderful films that showed unambiguously, and in no uncertain terms that Nazis and the axis powers were EVIL. Modern "infidels" are so detached from what is going on in the world, or even worse, they don't believe we are on the side of the Angels. I cringe whenever I hear someone criticizing Israel for defending themselves. Israel is always forced to fight with one hand tied behind its back! People don't realize Israel is our "canary in a coal mine."
So much of warfare is psychological. I wish cable and network news would stop broadcasting the war. What do people expect? War is hell, and the violent images are not pleasant to view. Islamic media is so good at manipulating messages and stirring up their base, you would think they have Karl Rove working for them.
Hezbollah maximizes Israeli civilian casualties by launching Syrian and Iranian designed antipersonnel missiles with ball-bearing shrapnel. Furthermore, in Lebanon, Hezbollah deliberately operates military wings out of densely populated areas to maximize Lebanese casualties and gain media attention through gruesome pictures of maimed children.
Unfortunately, the West has not gotten the message that this is a fight to the death to preserve freedom and liberty.
Naseem like so many muslims have selective memories, and use it for their defense for islam. Naseem think of your real ancestors, the ones who were Hindu, you know before the muslim monsters came over to drag your ancestros down the dreaded road to extinction. your brave ancestors who died fighting are now so upset at how you still pretend your a good muslim. poor Naseem your ancestors are not happy with you, not long ago, they were allowded to sing and dance in the sunlight, and now your children follow the death cult of islam. Naseem l know your ancestors are trying to wisper in your ears, to dream a new way to live.
tgusa
Not too many people openly state what Walid Shoebat stated last night on H&C, which you can see here for yourself after clicking the link 'Training Islamic Radicals'.
Champ, I disagree with you - I don't know if this is what you were suggesting, but I wouldn't suggest holding out hope for other current terrorists on the assumtion that someday, someone in a skirt with a double-D will wean their minds off Jihad. But you are right about Shoebat - the point that does need to be appreciated here is that regardless of how he got here, he has been openly stating the truth about why Arabs hate Israel - the reason being Islam. He quoted Quranic verses in Arabic that compared Jews to apes, and pointed out something that you won't hear even from Hannity: he keeps saying ad nauseum that the terrorists are following a twisted version of Islam. This is strange for someone who claims to have read the Quran.
In the name of PC, an intellectual thug like Colmes wouldn't let any Westerner get away with describing Islam what it is. But there was no way he could do that to Shoebat last night - the latter simply got the better of him.
Final point - I don't know what Jews think, but I do think that what he does these days in advocating the Jewish case does atone for his past acts of terror against Jews. I don't know whether that's something he can ever repay.
Naseem -- hey girlfriend!
You are by far the most popular poster on JW -- what is your secret? Could it be the misinformation you post? Your snide remarks? Your brilliant ideas? Your comedic one-liners? Etc, etc....
No one is trying to keep the Crusades "quiet", Naseem, so I don't know what you're talking about. And Israel doesn't have any current battles with Christians, so why would you suggest Israel "punish them too"?
Besides, not everyone is a grudge-holder like you and your religion, Naseem. Some people are actually forgiving -- ahem!
Infidel Pride,
Thanks for the link. In my reply to champs post I was only trying to get champ to slow down, don’t be too anxious to embrace every moderate that comes down the pike. I am reasonably sure that Mr. Shoebat is truly sincere. My warning, which was misunderstood, was “be careful” after all can you think of a better way to ingratiate yourself to us Infidels? We will probably see more of this in the future and it might not be legitimate.
This is the face of the enemy we are fighting.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21993_Palestinian_Human_Shield_Watch&only
Martyrdom anyone?
Infidel Pride -
Well, we can agree to disagree on whether or not I should hold out any hope; but with that said, please know that my "hope" is very LIMITED.
I'm not so naive to think that throngs of jihadists will change their minds about Israel/USA; but perhaps you could humor me and let me believe that maybe I planted a seed in the heart of "one" jihadist today. Can you do that?
Ok -- now I understand why you hated my post, usa. You may be right, and this transformation of Walid's could be a hoax. I personally don't think that it is, but now I get what upset you, and you're entitled to your own opinion.
I for one believe that he's changed, but I will definitely be guarded in what Walid says. Best I can do.
Naseem ?, Naa,-thats not the "real" Naseem.
Naseem ?, Naa,-thats not the "real" Naseem.
Champ
I don't doubt that Shoebat is genuine. That said, if you 'planted a seed in the "heart" of one Jihadist', all power to you.
Tgusa
Shoebat isn't a 'moderate', like Stephen Schwartz or Manzoor Ijaz or even Amir Tahiri. He's an apostate - dumped Islam for Christianity. I agree that a lot of Muslims are capable of faking their apostacy, and one should watch out for them.
Having said that, I know that we should make no distinctions between Muslims - radical or moderate, since the latter tends to obscure the fact that the root of this evil is within Islam itself. But what about those who've had the sense to jettison Islam altogether for something more sane - Ali Sina, Wafa Sultan, Walid Shoebat...? Do we condemn them as 'once a Muslim, always a thug'? That calls for eliminating the pathways of redemption for those who recognize the cult for the evil that it is, and risk even their lives in getting out of it. In some cases, where in their Islamic lives, they have committed criminal acts, as Shoebat did, they should have a steeper price to pay, but other than that, why should they be consigned to Islam forever?
Now, I'm second to none when it comes to waging an all out Jihad on Muslims. I am even on record as having advocated totalitarian rule in curbing their influence and dominance, eliminating their rights in bilad ul kafir, and have championed Slobodan Milosevic, amongst others. But I am uneasy with the concept that those Muslims who do recognize how f*&$ed up thier cult is, and, at tremendous risks to themselves, and losing all contact with their entire families, are willing to jettison all that and join our side in the Jihad. While we should undoubtedly be wary of fakes, do we exclude those who are genuinely on our side, and have proven it over a period of time by their actions?
My mistake, I did wrongly label him a moderate. In my opinion any person that leaves islam should be welcomed. I feel for the people you mentioned, they have in many cases given up everything they had. I too agree that they are in tremendous danger. As a matter of fact I don’t disagree with anything you wrote. However I do not hold out any hope they will affect a significant number to become, as you so rightly described them “Apostates”. To tell you the truth with fake photos, the msm lies and distortions, our leaders who are apparently misunderstanders of islam and everything else that has been going on, I am not sure what to believe these days.
tgusa
Agree completely. On the subject of fake photos, I see there's the new one of 'dead man sitting'. Over to that. And I'll avoid the soap box, going forward, or at least try to, anyways
Oh Naseem, I am convinced you are a froll now. No muslim would ever admit that there ever was a Jewish temple on the Temple Mount.
The "paleostinians" are digging like h*ll under the temple mount and hauling the artifacts away at night. All to deny the truth of the God of Israel...of course that's Satan's aim isn't it? To become god, he's deceived 1.2 billion people.
The best way would be to use daisy cutter bomb on Makkah. After all, I can't believe that Jewish people would be so defensive. If the Muslims ask for Jews to leave Israel, then why can't the Jews claim back Makkah, Madinah and parts of Saudi Arabia and ask all Muslims to leave Saudi Arabia ? After all, Mohammed expelled all Jews from there, or had them killed as they rejected him and his devilish rituals. Historical roof exists that Saudi Arabia, Makkah/Madinah were also the ancestral homes of Jewish people ! (Anyone who has read the Quran can find this information.)
This issue should be raised at United Nations whenever there is this pandemonium from Arabs against the "unjust Israeli occupation" of Arab lands - Palestine.
Naseem, you need to convert out of Islamic faith. Those burkhas, I tell you, are nothing but outward symbols of sexual oppression that Islam imposes on women. They probably make you look like "fancy dressed Fatimah" and sexually more unattractive to men. Probably you realize the unfortunate bondage that Islam has shackled women, you have started to spew nonsense. It appears that such action is a way of relief for you. How pathetic !
Mohammed bin Kafir Abu Jahal
moderationist...............If mohammad, the plagarist genocidal slave-taking pedophile, walked or rode on camels, only used primitive hand- made weapons, and squatted and pooped on the side of the road like a dog, why aren't all muslims walking, only using primitive hand-made weapons, and squatting and pooping on the side of the road like a dog???
mohammad didn't have access to any modern weapons whatsoever.........
Well moderationist, I've been to Afghanistan & your description of moHAMedians is accurate, 'cept they tote AK-47s instead of scimitars... Oh, and they wipe their a$$es with rocks after pooping in the sewer canals that run through their towns, yich!! They are also RAMPANT followers of moHAMad's pedophilia... In Kandahar you'd see them seeking the services of the boy-whores all painted up on "Man-boy love Tuesday"
Naseem, why don't you something more productive and go piss in a toaster??
The islamic choice:
accept islam or accept death. no other choices.
just get it started.
Iran's leadership is a curiously irrational one. On the one hand, belief in a coming apocalypse, and on the other a plea for ceasefire in Lebanon. This kind of thing simply enforces the idea that they are mad.
The principle behind the MAD doctrine is ofcourse mutually assured destruction, but rests on one of the tenets of a Just war - ie a just war can be waged if harm to civilians is not too great, and there is some prospect of winning. Thus nuclear war became unthinkable to the West and the USSR, which though athiest in in governance, was nevertheless Christian in culture.
In Islam, such concepts do not exist. Peace is simply a period for the Jihad to recover from defeat. Harm to civilians, whether muslims or not is of no consequence. Losing the war on earth, again is of no consequence, as the important part is dying for Allah. Face with such irrationality, from our point of view anyway, the various options that were available to us when dealing with USSR and the USSR with us, rapidly close down.
The war with the Islamic world is beginning to appear like a sci-fi story ie a war with an alien civilisation - the protagonists do not have have a cultural common point, particularly when it comes to war. In such stories, the outcome is generally annihilation for one side.
Well, that explains why I have been seeing that date alot. Thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to have that date cleared on my calendar.
Do you suppose anyone in our clueless gubmint takes important dates like this into planning? is anyone attuned? Hello? Buehler, anyone? Anyone?
DP111
not a bad analogy, comparing the "war on terror" to a sci-fi movie. But there is a better one, written in three books (now 3 movies) by Tolkien.
The orks in the lord of the rings trilogy are sub-human hate personified, never resting, never stopping, and yet emminently defeatable. Such semms to resemble the "arab street" these days, from pakistan to indonesia, to iran.
I'll be asleep on our 23rd of August night - in New Zealand. Like on 9/11, I'll wake to the terrible news, if there is any. Are you guys really getting in extra food etc?
There are inevitably hot heads on both sides.
Please consider what you say as your words canbe taken out of context. How would you feel if you found out your words were the very factor that goaded so many people to war, having been used by some manipulative Imam somewhere.
The internet has no national boundaries, any one could be reading. Its not for me to ask for people to show restraint, but surely the best arguments are those that use only the truth and withstand criticism from any angle.
Much of what is said in this website (and I've said lot myself) would be right at home at Team America.
' Naseem, why don't you something more productive and go piss in a toaster??'
Posted by: Armalite
Thanks, Armalite, the image that brought to mind - Naseem in her black sack crouched over the toaster - really made me laugh.
I did not read the WSJ article, but did view Fox's Dayside, Juliette Huddie (sp?) and Steve Doocey discussing Bernard Lewis' observations with an academic colleague at Princeton (sorry, didn't catch the man's name - he appeared to be of Indian ancestry).
The discussion did appear to be addressing the alarm until the very last statement by the academic. He drew attention to the last paragraph of Bernard Lewis' observation as the most significant. [not having read it, I will paraphrase] Lewis stated the need for more dialogue to recognize that the ME viewpoint is as valid as any western viewpoint.
Well, Mr. Lewis, I've seen how well the dialogue option has been working, and I'm ready to move on to other more tangible options . . .and an aspirin.
What is nmarks short for -- Nastyremarks? Nice!
Small MSM update:
On today's "Hannity and Colmes" Hannity asked Oliver North about August 22 as a possible date we should be anxious about. North did not give a very well-informed answer--he mumbled about numerology and superstition rather than the historical significance of Mohammed's so-called "Night Journey".
Still, at least it came up. I haven't seen any other MSM news outlet mention it at all.
Or maybe your username stands for NEUTEREDmarks? Yawn........
Since this is the first time I’ve written anything on Jihad Watch, I offer this preliminary comment: Yes, there is a serious global Jihadist threat that the West must respond to and defeat. And by the way, I really appreciate the work that Robert and any others involved in Jihad Watch are doing in helping to raise public awareness of this reality. Having said that though I liken this crisis to the Red Scare following World War II and the Cold War that followed. It is something we can overcome and defeat without being dragged into a global war if we manage the situation intelligently. With that thought in mind I can summarize my reaction to all of this anxiety about the date August 22 in two little words: “Don’t panic”! Besides, we’re told that terrorists want us to do exactly that - panic.
First of all, Brian Whitaker at the Guardian notes that Amadinejhad did not use the word “August” but an approximate equivalent (not an exact one, mind you), “Mordad”, a month on the Persian calendar. August 22 just happens to be the last day of this month (this year at any rate) and elsewhere I read that it also happens to be the last day of the current year on that calendar. We all know that dates like the last day of a month or of a year are often used as benchmarks, including such things as deadlines.
Secondly, since the suggestion of a link to the anniversary of Mohammed’s reputed flight to Jerusalem on the winged horse Buraq, and the inference that Ahmedinejhad therefore intends to “light up the sky over Jerusalem”, is known to come from Farid Ghadry, a political leader in Syria, a country with a staunchly secularist government, opposed to Islamic theocracy, there is clearly a political agenda behind this interpretation. Clearly a lot of people, including politicians, as well as Dr. Lewis, are reading a great deal into the facts, probably far more that is reasonable. Besides, Iran almost certainly doesn’t even have any nuclear weapons at this point!
Besides all this, one could hardly expect any government in Iran’s situation faced with making a decision about an issue of such massive strategic significance as whether or not to develop a nuclear weapons program, to make such a decision in haste. For that matter, neither would the U.S. government, if it found itself in such circumstances. Since this is something the Iranian leadership stands to lose face over, it’s to be expected that they’re going to want to at least have control of the timing of their decision and its announcement. The extension of the June 28 deadline may also be a function of the decision making processes within the Iranian government.
Finally, I have to say that if the rumours that the Bush administration still considers Dr. Lewis an important adviser on the Middle East are actually true, and this is the kind of paranoia that he’s feeding them, I find that just as scary as the nutcase regime in Iran. One thing the world does not need, and that will definitely make things worse, rather than better, is for the Bush administration, blinded by panic over ridiculous rumors, to launch another pre-emptive war in the Middle East. In the long run the defeat of the Islamist threat is going to depend far more on building bridges and building mutual trust with sensible Muslims (of which there are more than enough) than on military operations (though I do not say that we should overlook preparation for the latter when necessary).
So my advice to everyone is “Calm down!“ Assuming that western powers do not launch some hair-brained action against Iran that would turn it into another mess like Iraq (in fact it would probably be far worse) apart from hearing Iran’s response to the West’s proposals in the way one would normally expect (if they haven’t already provided it before that date) we can August 22 to come and go just like any other date on the calendar.
Dear Sir This Jihad passion against Babylon the Great the devil of liberal idols of proud blood wealth who rules throughout the hearts of the world who might be identified with the US and western countries will not be won though Jihad ,but this spiritual beast is truth or real and is the base of the hatered of this idols of the western natins and muslim nation are embrasing in these days which radicals hate. This spirit will collapse only when Jesus the Christ is known thoughout the earth in the great awakening. then the false prophet will be identified and rejected because people will know Lord Jesus the Christ of Holy Spirit is alive and here and his authority rules in the earth. then idols will be rejected. Truth rules these devils will be rejected in the world, false religions and civil liberty will collapse. The Jihad wars will not work, you cannot take up and kill for the Lord of host. He is more powerful then we give him credit for. Killing ourselves in suicide is pagin type, like sacificing the children to appease the god. Where is the D-Day invasion. Lord Jesus the Christ of Holy Spirit is growing in the world in truth and power of Holy Spirit is growing. The end of this disposition of first penticost of Holy spirit is here and judgment to second penticost is in this generation. Only two Popes of Rome left and all the christians will be absorbed to one Church
"I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the Islamic terrorists] wish to stand against the free world, we will stand against their religious fanaticism and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all remain free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is the heroic sacrifice of freedom-loving patriots. Either we shake one another's hands in joy at the victory of the free world, or all of us will die fighting."
I guess fanaticism is in the eye of the beholder?