OPINIONS

‘India’s Daughter’ as seen by America’s Daughter

“India’s Daughter” is a BBC documentary about a rape in India that the Indian government does not want anyone to see. So I took time out from my hectic junior year of high school to locate the film online and watch it.

I was born in Red Bank, New Jersey, and attend school in Saratoga, California, a Silicon Valley town. But my perspective on India is shaped by my dad, who is from New Delhi, and my mom, who is from Bombay.

“India’s Daughter” documents a particularly gruesome gang rape in India. In December 2012, a young woman in her mid-20s was savagely raped and mutilated while a male friend of hers was severely beaten, all in an otherwise vacant bus being driven around New Delhi. Then, the two were dumped roadside. The woman subsequently died. Of the six perpetrators, one committed suicide while awaiting trial, a 17-year old juvenile received a three-year sentence in a correctional facility, the maximum punishment for a juvenile in India, and the remaining four are awaiting appeals of their death sentences — which in India are awarded only “in the rarest of rare cases,” and even then almost always commuted.

This crime sparked outrage across India and led to violent street protests in New Delhi, prompting the Indian government to make prosecution of rapes easier and their punishments more severe.

Whereas media coverage of this and other rapes in India has created the perception that rape is more prevalent in India than elsewhere, according to a UN study, the per capita rate of lifetime sexual violence against women in the U.S. is about twice that in India. Neither is the gruesomeness of the crime uniquely Indian. For instance, in the Mahmudiyah killings and rape of 2006, five U.S. Army soldiers raped a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and murdered her and her family; and although this crime was premeditated, and the death penalty is far more common in the U.S. than in India, none of the U.S. soldiers received the death sentence. While the Iraqi girl’s mother had realized the threat posed by the U.S. soldiers to her daughter — not unlike when Toni Morrison’s grandmother had realized it was time to pack up her girls and leave when white boys began “circling” her yard in Alabama — the Iraqi mother had not appreciated the immediacy of the threat.

Monstrosity knows neither bounds nor boundaries. As in William Golding’s Lord of the Flies, a novel prompted by “unfathomable” German monstrosity toward Jews and others in WWII, even ordinary “children” can turn into savages in the absence of supervision. In Golding’s novel, the “children” kill a sow in the fashion of a gang rape.

Many in India are upset by the film because in it a perpetrator blames the death of his rape victim on the victim for resisting her rape. But victim blaming is common everywhere. For instance, when 15-year-old Audrie Pott from my high school committed suicide after her sexual assault by three teenagers at a party in September 2012, many at my school blamed Pott for going to a party that served alcohol.

But what appears to have upset the Indian government more than anything else about “India’s Daughter” is that in it, both the defense attorneys of the rapists espouse the view that women should dress conservatively, not go out late or with non-family members and focus on motherhood and on raising a family. But such views are common in India, especially in small towns and the countryside. Unsurprisingly, then, whereas there was universal outrage over the crime in India, protests against the film appear limited to activists and politicians.

Given that no one is challenging the accuracy of the film, I am baffled by the Indian government’s attempt to suppress it. The film is a commentary on man as much as on India. Is the Indian government ashamed of the values held by many of its citizens on the role of women in Indian society?

While I do not subscribe to these values, everyone is entitled to express his or her opinion — and that is all values are, opinions — as long as this opinion is not sought to be imposed on others, especially when such expression is not gratuitously offensive, as were the Charlie Hebdo cartoons.

Freedom of expression allows for the public challenge of otherwise private premises. But outside the United States, countries routinely suppress the views of their citizens, especially when these views are widely held and threaten either the ruling establishment or the narrative that this establishment wants to promote. So it is in India, with the role of women. So it is in swaths of Europe, with its anti-Semitism. So it is in much of the rest of the world, with its political and religious dogma.

Censorship then seems to serve but one primary purpose worldwide: to perpetuate views that cannot withstand the scrutiny of reason.

Gitika Nalwa, Saratoga High School, ‘16

Contact Gitika Nalwa at gitikanalwa ‘at’ gmail.com.

  • browneyes

    The writer is a kid and seems underinformed, so the opinion is excusable. But it merely reflects the old colonial mindset, even though she is of Indian descent. It is incorrect to say the Indian government does not want anyone to see the picture. The Indian government is accountable to Indian citizens, who routinely throw out governments and have one of the most vigorous Right to Information legislations on the planet. The Indian government had no choice but to ban the movie because the people demanded it. The last government lost elections in part due to inaction on rape, so the present government is highly sensitised to it.

    Would America allow a movie in which a child rapist described in detail and with relish what he did to a child and how he killed the child and how the child deserved it? A segment in which the director offers zero judgment or condemnation? I hope it wouldn’t. It certainly would not be allowed in India because of laws (put in place by popular opinion) that disallow convicted and accused people from “besmirching the dignity of their victims” (actual legal language). You cannot as a murderer in India openly say how much you enjoyed killing your victim and how they were forced to beg for mercy. This is why this movie is being called “Rape Porn” in India. It is illegal and it SHOULD be illegal. Remove the segment where the accused is given a platform to voice his sickness. The rest is perfectly fine. There are FAR more aggressive documentaries in India about rape. Again, it is perfectly legal in India to say “Indians are all rapists” or “All men are rapists” or “India is a sick culture” or such things. The director herself travels to India and says this. The Indian government is unable to stop this in any way. However, it can, must and should stop rapists from getting a platform. If the government does not do this, we absolutely will come out in the streets again to protest.

    Like other Indians, I am a bit shocked at how blase Americans are about rape in their own county. I see case after case if I search. In the 2009 Richmond High School gang rape, 7 Americans raped a 15 year old. Or 20 men raping an 11-year old in Texas over a 3 month period (search for Texas Gang rape)? Or this: As many as 10 men allegedly took turns sexually assaulting a 13-year-old runaway Texas girl in an apartment where some cheered and filmed the attacks with their cellphone cameras. Or this for a mentally disabled girl in Georgia state: Up to 25 males — ages 12 to 25 — raped and molested the girl for 12 hours after luring her off of a bicycle and into an apartment building, police said Wednesday. Or this from Minnesota state: Nine suspected gang members and associates were charged Friday with taking part in a sexual attack on a 14-year-old girl who was forced back inside an abandoned St. Paul house and raped after trying to leave a party. Or in Steubenville, where a 16 year old was carried from party to party and raped, and in the end: They peed on her in the street.

    I easily see dozens of such reports. Your own studies indicate that 20% of all American women are raped and 25% of these are Gang Rapes (Vogelman and Lewis study). You have more than 10 gang rapes in America every single day – your own statistics. This is a higher percentage for sure than India. The difference? We discuss this openly and aggressively. You hush it up. As the Sydney Morning Herald (Exposing America’s gang rape shame, January 15, 2013, Nick O’Malley) said: “As the world was shocked by the gang rape and murder of a young woman in India, an alleged gang rape in America almost went unnoticed.”

    Just saying. The Nirbhaya case blew the whole thing open in India. There is hardly any family where rape is not discussed openly or somewhat openly. In America, take a look at 5 of your female relatives. One has likely been raped. Has she told you? If not, why not? Probably because she is feeling pressured by society. Madonna herself has now talked about being raped and how she didn’t report it because “it makes no difference.” Also, there is underreporting everywhere but one cold statistic are conviction rates, i.e. of reported rapes how many resulted in jail time. In India that is 26%, which is now widely discussed on TV and other media. In America, it is 7%!!!!! What! 93% of the time, when an American woman reports a rape, precisely nothing happens to the man. Wow. If you were a raped woman, you would almost certainly never report it either. It would be pointless. You have so many resources. What are you people doing?

  • mxm123

    ” The Indian government had no choice but to ban the movie because the people demanded it. ”

    Huh. In a democracy, there is no “demanded it” provision when it comes to free speech. Free speech is codified in law. And once you have “demanded it” provisions then you slip into an arbitrary legal society, which is India.

    A rape in America may go unnoticed. But it is not illegal to report it. Big difference. Also, the likely hood of rape in America to be reported with all its gory details is far higher than in India, where most women don’t report rapes due to stigma.

    A child rapist in America can narrate or act in a movie as long as it does not name the victim, because its illegal to name the victim. There’s plenty of documentaries of Charles Manson. A network or you tube has the right not to show it. Yes, its legal in America.

    Again, if you want arbitrary laws and laws, you get India. Ever wonder why the country’s govt is now promising foreign countries that it would remove the arbitrary provisions of its legal system ? Because, with arbitrary on the spot rules you get corruption and no economic growth. And of course a massively corrupt society like India.

  • mxm123

    “But outside the United States, countries routinely suppress the views of their citizens, ” and in the same paragraph. “India, with the role of women. So it is in swaths of Europe, with its anti-Semitism.”

    There is no censorship of anti-semitism in Europe nor the general discussion of the role of women in Indian press.

  • Emic

    There are nuances to the story that may not be apparent to the writer, even if her parents came originally from India. The action by the Indian government cannot be understood without first appreciating the great power imbalance that exists between the Third World and the West in shaping perceptions, and what gets reported and how. The propaganda abetted by the Western media that led to the war in Iraq is one example of the disastrous consequences of this inequality.

    The horrendous rape of Jyothi Singh set off a Ferguson-like revulsion in India that led to mass public protests and great activism among its youth. It was spontaneous and didn’t require Western sanction or instigation, and it led to changes in the country’s laws that are now far more stringent for rape than anywhere in the West. What India didn’t need was an outsider from its former colonial power projecting her own experiences of being raped in Britain in a documentary that gives voice to one of Jyothi’s rapists, whose own appeal against his death sentence was still being processed, and to his male chauvinist lawyer. The government and the independent judiciary there were concerned that these statements could primarily inflame the passions already sensitized by the Indian media’s over-sensationalized coverage of rapes in the country, and also prejudice the convicted rapists appeal. The primary concern was justified not so long after when an innocent man was publicly lynched by a vigilante mob in an Indian state after he was falsely accused of committing rape.

    This director’s motivations for making the documentary, and the way she went about securing permissions to film, were also viewed with deep suspicion because of India’s prior experience with heavy-handed Western biases in reporting stories about the country. These suspicions, even voiced by some of India’s leading feminists, were justified in light of her many racist public utterances since the banning of the documentary where she spoke disparagingly of India’s intrinsic “rape culture” and of Indian men of being sexual predators. What India doesn’t need is a Dworkin/MacKinnon-slanted harangue from a privileged outsider with dubious motivations. It has and will continue to redress injustice and reform from within without the “maa baap” (mother and father to the native subjects) mindset from former imperial colonialists.

  • MiG-21MF

    The Indian govt. asked the BBC to remove the interview with the rapists, as the matter is sub-judice, and because the filmmaker had provided a sworn, legal statement to India that the interview will not be included in the film. It is also against Indian laws (and British laws) to name the victim of a rape crime, and the girl’s parents had specifically asked that documentary maker not to do so. And yet, both were included, all for commercial gain. The filmmaker paid money to the rapists to interview them, while they were in prison. I hope you understand that matters that are still in court cannot have films aired about them, because that can influence the process of justice and provide grounds for acquittal. The Indian govt.’s response was correct.

  • MiG-21MF

    Again, you miss the elephant in the room. The criminals are still undertrial, and therefore, their views, or those of a filmmaker about their crime, cannot be aired, as it unfairly influences the prosecution. We do have rule of law, you know… and even the perpetrators of henious crime need to be provided a fair trial.

    Would you prefer if the rapists were acquitted just because the BBC wants to make some extra money?

  • MiG-21MF

    Upvote to you. The filmmaker and the BBC broke Indian (and British) laws that protect the privacy of a rape victim. She also violated the law by going against a sworn legal statement that the interview of the rapist would not be included in the film. She even paid him money (Rs. 50,000) Her actions are prejudicial to the prosecution process, and she and the BBC did this, just to make a little extra money using a dead rape victim.

  • mxm123

    Do tell. Could you point me to the law in India that states an accused cannot give an interview ?

    It’s not what i prefer. I’m pointing out the arbitrariness of the Indian enforcement system.

  • mxm123

    Its not what the govt. asks ? Rather, Is there a law that prohibits it. And the answer is no.

    Is there a law that prohibits a movie on a under trial. The answer is no. You can point to no court order that finds that the director of this movie broke the law. The name of the rape victim was released by her parents long before the movie was made. The BBC points to a trail of permissions it took. None of which have been disproven by the Govt, in any court. Its what the Govt. “feels”.

    Again, your’e highlighting the arbitrariness of the Indian system that is based on “feelings”, nationalistic sentiment whatever that makes it such a corrupt place. And you can’t deny that. I could point you to tens of articles in Indian newspapers that ridicule the enforcement of rape shield laws in India.

  • mxm123

    “The horrendous rape of Jyothi Singh set off a Ferguson-like revulsion in India that led to mass public protests and great activism among its youth.”

    The revulsion and protests were against the corrupt and arbitrary legal enforcement system in India. The very system you’re trying to justify here.

    “What India didn’t need was an outsider from its former colonial power projecting her own experiences of being raped in Britain in a documentary that gives voice to one of Jyothi’s rapists, whose own appeal against his death sentence was still being processed, and to his male chauvinist lawyer”

    And the govt. decides what is good (forget the legality) for it citizens. I guess in a free country like India the people can’t make that choice. And if Indians were so reviled by their former “colonial power” making a movie ,that flies in contradiction to the millions of downloads of that movie into India.

    In India there is a “law” and a “rule” for everything. That is until you pay the bribe.

  • MiG-21MF

    Get your facts right. The Delhi High Court upheld the Indian govt.’s ban on the “documentary”.

  • MiG-21MF

    It is breaking the law when the filmmaker signs a sworn statement that the interview will not be included in the film, and then does it after getting out of India.

  • mxm123

    You may want to get your facts right. No court in India has ruled on the legality of the movie yet. A stay is a not a legal victory.

    You still can’t point me to a law in India that bans making a movie of an accused. And i’m not asking for your “feelings” or the govts “feelings”.

    http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-03-18/news/60249705_1_chief-justice-g-rohini-delhi-high-court-documentary

    “On March 12, another bench of the court, while refusing to lift the ban, had observed that media trials tend to influence judges by subconsciously creating a pressure.

    It had also said that although it is prima facie not opposed to airing of the documentary, it should be released after the Supreme Court decides on the appeals of the convicts in the matter.”

  • mxm123

    Proven in a court of law. ? Nope. Cause what an Indian bureaucrat states is golden,right ?

    Why hasn’t the govt. banned the BBC in India ? Cause it will show what a joke the rule of law in India is.

  • Stanford Grad and Parent

    I hope the “kid” is not holding your age against you as you are holding her age against her.
    This “kid” certainly has no sacred cows — she slams India, the U.S., France, Germany, and China — but your response is premised on the expectation that she, an American, would have a holier-than-thou attitude toward India.
    The U.S. has its freedom of expression to be proud of, but India has its culture of diversity to be proud of: Where else have Jews flourished for millennia without ever being treated as outsiders?
    This “kid” is just sayin’ it as she sees it: Humans are monsters across cultures and their monstrosity is not to be underestimated — you have heard of German lampshades made of human skin, right? — and that censorship to hide monstrosity is not a solution, but an impediment.
    And your response is that rape in the U.S. is worse than in India?

  • afsf

    Hey Gitikia I know your parents are proud techno-Indians and want to say their country is not that bad. Please don’t compare wonderful America to India. There is no comparison between the west and India on the status of women. Trying to use under-reported statistics in India ignores the magnitude of the problem and hurts women in India.

    As someone born in high caste and wealth generated by your techno-Indian parents, you aren’t really qualified to comment on the plight of rural Indian women any more than stuck up white women.

  • dafa

    Hey Anupam do get tired of brown-nosing your glorious Bharat Mata on the internet all day? I know as an over-weight high caste know-it-all, you probably have servants and have no real work to do. BUT STILL…

    India will never go anywhere with bhenchods like you glossing the country’s many serious shortcomings.

  • JVG

    “Please don’t compare wonderful America to India”, “Trying to use under-reported statistics in India”

    You need to do your homework before spewing rhetoric on a public forum. UN Women, the United Nations Entity for Gender Equality and the Empowerment of Women, compiled the rates of unreported partner and non-partner sexual violence across 99 countries which had conducted large-size household surveys. These are surveys that have been conducted under international standards. In India, for instance, the Demographic and Health Surveys (DHS) were funded and monitored by the United States Agency for International Development, and in Brazil, the surveys were conducted by the World Health Organization. This makes these surveys of acceptable quality and comparable across countries. Going by this report, India ranks 39th with 8.9% unreported sexual violence and US ranks 26th with 18.30% unreported sexual violence.

  • Emic

    There were already stringent laws against rape before the protests.The protests were against the slack law enforcement system and the tin-ear of the Sonia Gandhi-controlled central and state governments of that time following this vicious attack. There was additionally great anger that the key instigator of the attack (and most sadistic rapist) who essentially killed the victim was tried as a juvenile and not subject to the death penalty. The legal system, however, prevailed and not vigilante mob rule.

    And it isn’t just the Indian government that decides what is good for its citizens in matters of broader public good. In the free country that is the US, the government here also decides what is in the best interests of its citizens and, for example, conducts targeted assassinations of terrorists abroad without input from “the people”.

    It is also unlikely that the people in India who had the means and the education to download and view the flawed documentary are the ones that the government was particularly concerned about, even if it interfered with the legal process and prejudiced the convict’s appeal for mercy.

    Yes, in India there is the rule of the law. It is by no means perfect, but it is a heck of a lot better than the medieval barbarism that exists in the despotic and theocratic countries ranging from the Levant (barring Israel) to India’s western border.

  • JVG

    BBC commissioned a documentary titled “India’s Daughter”, where the filmmaker included the interview of one of the rapists of a young woman known as “Nirbhaya” (the fearless one). It was due to be aired by the Indian channel NDTV. However, news of the show snowballed into a gigantic social and political controversy. The Government of India eventually intervened and banned the telecast on ground that it violated various norms.

    The turn of events has led to a barrage of opinions, most of them on predictable lines: Political allegations, celebrities spouting inanities about freedom of expression, feminists raging about misogyny and patriarchy, men either bending backwards to prove how non-misogynistic they are, or going on the defensive, sanctimonious non-Indians discussing the “terrible Indian rapist mindsets”. In the midst of this noise, I sat back and contemplated on my own conflicting views.

    As Indian, I was offended that a British filmmaker called India a “sick society”. The blanket, derogatory categorization of my people rankled. As a viewer, I was appalled at the callousness of the television channel that chose to sell a grim documentary like a cheap soap opera. One of their advertisements stated: “NDTV proudly presents world premiere interview with a real-life rapist”.

    What exactly was the channel proud of? Proud that they had managed to package a tragedy with a big dollop of sensationalism? The entire approach was obnoxious.

    The Nirbhaya rape case continues to have a devastating impact on my psyche. I was not prepared to see or hear her rapist.

    At the same time, as a mental health therapist, I was curious: Was there a larger point to the documentary than just earning TRPs? What message would potential sexual predators derive from the show? Was this the appropriate way to handle such a sensitive issue?

    First, let me start with the intent of BBC and the filmmaker. It is possible, as alleged by many, that the documentary was made with the aim of showing down the “natives” and elevating the “white race” by contrast. This comes across when the filmmaker repeatedly uses terms like “sick society” and “diseased culture” to characterize India in her interviews. The tone smacks of sanctimonious hypocrisy. It is quite different from BBC exploring the gender issue as opposed to cultural labeling.

    Dubious film company
    —————————-

    The company of filmmaker Leslee Udwin was created temporarily to produce one documentary. It is neither a credible firm that has a proven track record nor does it have the intention of producing more movies in future. The company under which the movie was produced has no traces currently.

    “A newborn film company named Tathagat under whose banner Udwin produced the documentary and has left no traces of its existence. The funder of India’s Daughter, Tribeca Film Institute, which is financed by the Ford Foundation, a body under the scanner of Indian agencies for funding PRS’s Lamp Scheme in India. A carefully constructed web of film companies whose presence fade in and out as if through the lens of a camera. Behind the outrage on the social media and the anger of columnists and editorial writers over the ban of the documentary lies a story of deception, circumvention of rules and a host of missing links that suggest that Leslee Udwin’s story is not just what it seems to be—a gift to India,” reads a New Indian Express article.

    Slippery Udwin
    ——————-

    Her role and intentions are very suspicious, as she did not travel to India under a film/documentary visa. Udwin shot the film with the help of a local journalist who helped her in obtaining local authorities’ approval to shoot the documentary. However, once the shoot was over, she issued a gag order to the journalist who could have silenced her potentially.

    On 7 April 2014, Tihar Jail authorities detect violation in permission conditions for shoot and a legal notice is served. The notice to Leslee asks her to return the unedited footage within 15 days and also not to show the film as it violates the permission conditions. However, this matter was not highlighted till the documentary was released.

    The details are available in activist Kamayani Bali’s website -> goo(.)gl/QqQDLb

    Dictated for a fee
    ———————-

    A disturbing point is the money paid to the rape convict Mukesh Singh for the interview. For a person from his economic stratum, Rs 40,000 was a large sum to rant whatever the documentary author dictated. He seems to have given up on the chances of his surviving the trial, but his family can use the money.

    A ploy for future?
    ———————-

    In a previous interview with The Wall Street Journal in 2013, Mukesh had asked for forgiveness to the rape victim’s parents. In the documentary, however, he showed no sign of remorse as he mentioned the rape incident was “an accident”. The rapist says, “No, not at all; the girl was at fault.” The disgusting man now says, “When being raped, she shouldn’t fight back. She should just be silent and allow the rape. Then they’d have dropped her off after ‘doing her’, and only hit the boy.”

    It is unnerving and hugely disconcerting to surmise that, if pardoned, this man will ‘punish’ more women for not adhering to his code of conduct by raping them.

    However, when Mukesh claims in the film to have been constantly on the wheel when his accomplices raped the victim and brutalised her, do we see a ploy for the future? If his involvement in the crime had been so indirect, obviously the special court would not have handed him the capital punishment. That can only mean he was paid to lie. If so, will the film turn into an excuse for another round of activism when the trial at the Supreme Court ends? Will vested interests, both Indian and foreign, demand commuting of his sentence if the judge orders death for him? Recall that ‘lack of incontrovertible evidence’ was the ruse for breast-beating NGOs who demanded clemency for Parliament House attack convict Afzal Guru, as if they knew more about the case than all our courts that the case went through up to the Supreme Court that had found him fit for the capital punishment!

    What we can actually learn from India
    ————————————————

    If people wish to talk about culture, here is an original. However, partial projection of this seems to be another conspiracy with many hidden agendas.

    यत्र नार्यस्तु पूज्यन्ते रमन्ते तत्र देवताः।

    यत्रैतास्तु न पूज्यन्ते सर्वास्तत्राफलाः क्रियाः।।

    [Gods dwell where women are respected: Manusmriti]

    Swami Vivekananda wrote about the women in this nation, thus:

    “Nowhere in the world are women like those of this country. How pure, independent, self-relying, and kindhearted! It is the women who are the life and soul of this country. All learning and culture are centred in them. The saying, “या श्री: स्वयं सुकृतिनां भवनेषु — Who is the Goddess of Fortune Herself in the families of the meritorious” (Chandi)—holds good in this country, while that other, “अलक्ष्मीः पापात्मनां — The Goddess of ill luck in the homes of the sinful” (ibid.)—applies to ours. Just think on this. Great God! I am struck dumb with wonderment at seeing the women of America. “त्वं श्रीस्त्वमीश्वरी त्वं ह्रीः etc. — Thou art the Goddess of Fortune, Thou art the supreme Goddess, Thou art Modesty” (ibid.), “या देवी सर्वभूतेषु शक्तिरूपेण संस्थिता — The Goddess who resides in all beings as Power” (ibid.)—all this holds good here. There are thousands of women here whose minds are as pure and white as the snow of this country. And look at our girls, becoming mothers below their teens!! Good Lord! I now see it all. Brother, “यत्र नार्यस्तु पूज्यन्ते रमन्ते तत्र देवताः — The gods are pleased where the women are held in esteem”—says the old Manu. We are horrible sinners, and our degradation is due to our calling women “despicable worms”, “gateways to hell”, and so forth. Goodness gracious! There is all the difference between heaven and hell!! “याथातथ्यतोऽर्थान् ब्यदधात् — He adjudges gifts according to the merits of the case” (Isha, 8). Is the Lord to be hoodwinked by idle talk? The Lord has said, “त्वं स्त्रि त्बं पुमानसि त्वं कुमार उत वा कुमारी — Thou art the woman, Thou art the man, Thou art the boy and the girl as well.” (Shvetâshvatara Upa.) And we on our part are crying, “दूरमपसर रे चण्डाल — Be off, thou outcast!” “केनैषा निर्मिता नारी मोहिनी etc.—Who has made the bewitching woman?” My brother, what experiences I have had in the South, of the upper classes torturing the lower! What Bacchanalian orgies within the temples! Is it a religion that fails to remove the misery of the poor and turn men into gods! Do you think our religion is worth the name? Ours is only Don’t touchism, only “Touch me not”, “Touch me not.” Good heavens! A country, the big leaders of which have for the last two thousand years been only discussing whether to take food with the right hand or the left, whether to take water from the right-hand side or from the left, … if such a country does not go to ruin, what other will? “कालः सुप्तेषु जागर्ति कालो हि दुरतिक्रमः—Time keeps wide awake when all else sleeps. Time is invincible indeed!” He knows it; who is there to throw dust in His eyes, my friend?”

    Namaste _/_

  • mxm123

    Actually no. There are serious judicial challenges to any act of the govt. on citizens inside the country, starting with the Posse Comitatus Act. You may want to read up on that. Unlike India, were even the showing of a movie is at the discretion of the govt. Targeted assassinations are subject to judicial review.

    The legal system in India, before and after the incident , is a joke. The shining example of that is the Sikh riots still in courts after 25 years. I can point you to Indian newspapers which state the same, despite your statements to the contrary.

    Again, many Indians don’t seem to understand the concept of freedom. If you don’t like it don’t watch it. But don’t decide for me. Therein lies the arbitrariness of the Indian system and its pursuant corrupt and rot. A fact you can’t deny.

  • MiG-21MF

    Funny that you should be lecturing me on being “high caste” … when I voted for the son of an illiterate tea seller to run my glorious Bharat Mata, and had voted for a Sikh 5 years before that, and had made the mistake of voting for a Roman Catholic woman of Italian birth 10 years before that … And I do not hire paid help because I have irregular work hours, but if you want to show up to clean my home every day at 5 AM, you are welcome to send me your resume.

  • MiG-21MF

    You can argue over the semantics if you like … just pointing out that the courts are not disagreeing with the government.

    We finally have a proactive govt. running our country, and mindless foreign critics are not going to make any dent to that.

  • mxm123

    Ever wonder why countries with endless rules and restrictions never prosper ? It doesn’t work in the long run.

    Your new govt, now wants to ban Greenpeace etc. It will never work. Good luck.

  • browneyes

    In a democracy, there is no “demanded it” provision when it comes to
    free speech. Free speech is codified in law. And once you have “demanded
    it” provisions then you slip into an arbitrary legal society, which is
    India.

    Of course. The first part is precisely right and the second part is a fallacy (ad hominem). And, since you paid no actual attention to what I wrote, I will repeat it. It is perfectly legal in India to say “India sucks” or “Indian people suck” or “Indian culture sucks.” This is protected speech and no Indian government can stop it even if 99.99% of the population wants to stop it. However, you appear to be asking for child pornography to be legalised in America. Seems to me like preventing it from being allowed in your country has made you “slip into an arbitrarily legal society.”

    In fact, what Indians do note and comment on is the massive self-censorship in Western media. India is definitely a more free-wheeling and free-thinking society than the West is. It is super-evident to anyone that watches Indian news and Indian discussions. Most Western newspapers do not allow comment on articles relating to India. Why? Because there are millions of Indians online and more coming on every single day and they express views at massive divergence to the “official Western script.”

    You yourself are doing this. You’ve simply dodged the far higher statistics in America. By the way, these have zero to do with reporting. They are direct indicators of bias. When a woman walks into a police station to report the she has been raped, what is the percentage chance that her rapist will be jailed. This is documented and incontrovertible. 26% in India, 7% in America. This is why this entire narrative is doomed. There once was a time of information asymmetry. The Internet has killed it dead. We can read too. On top of that we are both very disunited (Indians generally are), with far more free and divergent views, and we outnumber you. Your only choice is censorship, which you do indulge in – heavily.

  • browneyes

    First, please peddle your propaganda elsewhere. As we see it, in terms of expression, India is to America what America is to the Middle East. Your programs are so uniform (which is why no one in India watches CNN anymore) – like-thinking “experts” brought in to maintain some sort of harmony of thoughts. Indian discussions are more free-ranging and vigorous.

    Second, it is a classic Western tactic to reframe what someone else is saying. You’ve attempted to recast my words and are now attacking that caricature. Of course, you’ve got a major issue on your hands. Indians are too aggressive in their opinions. This can only blow-back in your face. We are not China. We are a very argumentative lot. Hardly anyone in this country agrees with everyone else and we speak our minds pretty openly. So go back and re-read my post. You are either in support of child-pornography or you are hypocritical about India.

    Should a documentary be made in which the Nazi who skinned the poor victim alive in order to make the lampshade describe with happy tones how he did it, how the victim was basically an animal who deserved it? Should this then be presented unedited and with zero comment? Please point me at a documentary like this.

    I challenge you here and on the spot.

    You have a problem on your hands, SG&P. Indians are on the web. We read and we think. And we are actually MUCH MORE aware of rape and far more OPEN in dealing with it than you are. You’re about to have your mind expanded for you. Or you can do what the NY Times does. Don’t allow comment in India-related articles because you cannot handle it.

  • browneyes

    Seriously, you need to stop looking at your navel a bit if you want to get involved in the world. I read stuff like this and it makes complete sense how you walk into traps like Iraq and get your people killed in their thousands. The world you construct in your minds has very little to do with the world that really exists.

    There is no move to ban Greenpeace. How would it be banned? However, their funds transfer is illegal as are their activities. By the way, their actions are illegal under both CANADIAN and BRITISH law. And what is their response on Indian newschannels when they are interviewed? “Let’s not use those countries as examples, India is a much better democracy.” Please, spare us your propaganda. You’re welcome to try it, of course, no one in India is buying it.

    You really are like the former Soviet Union. You yourself do not see if, of course, but you constantly feed yourselves some really bizarre narratives about the world.

  • browneyes

    I was not offended that she called India a sick society. In any case, even if you were offended, that cannot result in a ban. She travels to India and says it in conferences here, and there is little you can do to stop that. It is protected. The ONLY part that is banned is the rapists gloating account. That is an insult to Nirbhaya and is glorification of rape. I do not know of ANY other movie made that has a segment like this. Most Westerners quickly reframe and morph discussions away from this and pretend the ban is about something else altogether, as does the director. It does not appear to be cleverness though, i.e. there really is some sort of mental programming at work in the West. They just cannot “see” it. And the signs of this are everywhere. Note how the vast majority of Western newspapers have shut down all comments sections relating to Indian articles. There is hardly any abuse in them ever. They just cannot handle the opinions. Literally, they cannot handle thought.

  • mxm123

    We Americans make plenty of blunders as a country, but the dynamism of our country not shackled by millions of rules and regulation let us recover and prosper. Unlike India. Heard of the phrase “argumentative Indian”. Read the latest Economist and its articles on what an economic mess India is with its endless rules. But then is that going to change anybody’s mind in India.

    They know better. Sure. That’s why Indian elites send their children to America !!!

    No move to ban Greenpeace ? Oh yeah, they’re going to apply their “rules” against inconvenient NGO’s.

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/recall-orders-against-greenpeace-india/article7126910.ece

    If Indians think America is like the Soviet Union, lets check the lines outside the two embassys in India. Oh wait. Never mind. Its the preachy Indian.

  • JVG

    I know that her generalising a culture cannot result in a ban. I was just trying to put forward the views that this woman had while making the film which raises the question about her being able to do justice to Nirbhaya with this documentary.

  • browneyes

    All you’ve got is invective. And this is wrong on SO many levels. First, the government cannot ban any channel in India. There’s even a channel called Zindagi that carries Pakistani programming. Second, Indian law is far more open than American law in this regard. In America, you are prohibited from having a TV or Radio station that is more than 25% foreign owned. Exceptions to this are only made on a case-by-case basis by a bureaucrat (your FCC), i.e. arbitrarily. Third, even if India were to censor channels in this way, why on earth would it ban the BBC? It is super-boring and no one watches it here, except people older than 60 years of age. In general, Western news channels are tame and self-censored compared to Indian channels. Any show on CNN or BBC usually has people who agree 85% with one another with literally no actual debate by Indian standards. Indian TV is aggressive and Indians are highly opinionated and much more divergent and disunited from one-another. This is why Indian discussion shows look chaotic and overly aggressive to Westerners. Anytime there is an intersection that brings Americans or British people to participate in an Indian talk-show, you can see that they are left shell-shocked and scandalized.

    It is literally true. Indian media is to Western media as Western media is to Arab media. Ultimately, the Internet destroys protected pockets of one-mindedness, and your bubble is going to get popped too. Just a matter of time.

  • browneyes

    That’s hardly a fact, so yes, it can be denied. And people that operate a system in which black kids are shot in the streets with impunity with the VAST majority of such things being completely papered over hardly have a leg to stand on. Or lets take your biomedical experiments, for example the Tuskegee Syphilis Study where black people were deliberately left infected with syphilis and you cold bloodedly studied them like animals. How many people have been punished for this? What, zero? Please spare us your homilies. Keep telling yourself these stories of fairness and justice.

    And on Posse Comitatus, such a convenient argument when you have a super-militarised police force. America has 5 times the police intensity as India (police density). They almost all carry lethal weapons. And how many people are locked-up as a percentage of the population? Indian police is far thinner in density, they are not armed except lightly and the percentage of prison population is far, far, far lower. Again, who are you trying to fool? We can read too. In any case, why take the time to tangle with us? Don’t you have some more unarmed black kids to gun down in the street?

  • mxm123

    The arbitrariness of the Indian system is hardly a fact, then surely do exist on a different space. I got news for you. Lots of bad things happen in America. You can even come and make a movie or two about it. And even if hurts the “feelings” 99 percent of the populations it will not be banned. That’s the difference pal.

    Every town in America decides its police force. You can make a movie of them too. People want that. And they don’t ban your criticisms.

    In the end the lines outside the embassy i see speaks for itself. A lot more people want to live in “evil” America, than in the “you decide for me” paradise called India. I wonder why.

  • mxm123

    Govt. cannot ban any channel in India. Really.

    “India takes al-Jazeera off-air in Kashmir map row” –

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-32408547

    The only thing the internet has destroyed are the censorship of “we know what’s good for you” India.

    Indians may be highly opiniated. Good for them and i couldn’t care less. What’s missing is a respect (not agreement ) for another persons opinion or right to decide for themselves.

    The results of the “preachy Indian” are seen everyday in India and its economy. Quit pretending otherwise. You fool noone.

  • browneyes

    More garbage. First of all, South Africa had apartheid and yet Africans were sneaking into that country. Mexicans and others are mistreated in America, yet they try to get in. Africans face racism in Europe, yet they try to get in. Why? Economics. India absolutely has a horrific economic system. No question. Socialism is absolutely poison. It has really hurt the country and impoverished it. And the Economist usually gets these things pretty wrong initially – they are always recasting what they said before, in case you’ve noticed. And why on earth would Indians pay any attention to the Economist. They actually tried to make the case that India should re-elect the Congress. I mean. Really! Just mind-bogglingly dumb. Congress is the reason India is the autarkic basket case it is. What India needs is for the government to largely ignore business altogether. Any sector in India that the government is clueless about booms (cellphones, software, movies). Any that it tries to “help” (manufacturing, retail) tanks. No different than any government anywhere else, I suppose. I am a diehard capitalist and freetrader so I have no idea what precisely you’re arguing with me. You do realise that your precious Greenpeace is hard at work trying to DEEPEN socialism and protectionism (which is perfectly legal)? And that they are using hidden fund transfers and bribing people to do so (which is completely illegal)?

    Also, this link of yours is just ridiculous. Some “civil society organisations” (which in India is usually a codename for Communist groups, who are Maoist and usually answerable to China) are protesting the Greenpeace investigation. Let me get this right. Government curbs on an organisation which is Chinese-propped is being protested by other Chinese-propped groups. Wow, how could that ever happen? Amazing. Shocking. This is somehow supposed to impress us? India is only investigating them. America would have put the whole lot in jail by now. Rather they wouldn’t have dared to operate in this way in America.

    America is dynamic. Who disagreed with that? Heck, Saudi Arabia is much more dynamic than Ethiopia too. That does not make Saudi freer than Ethiopia.

    Also, stop saying “we Americans.” You are almost certainly not American.

  • browneyes

    Hmmm …. something is clearly off here. America is actually a great nation. And there is no question about it. It is, in fact, the greatest nation in the world. Rather the greatest nation the world has ever seen. It is also a nation that has strived to do good consistently and faced-up to its negatives consistently. Even its military interventions abroad might be ill-informed (okay, very ill-informed) but they have never been ill-intentioned.

    However, none of this changes the fact that, at this moment in history, India is in great ferment and going through a period of massive openness and flow of ideas. At this point in time, this exceeds the level in America. This does NOT make India better than America. As a nation, America is better than India. Most Indians would say this. And you can say this freely in India all you want.

    Also, there is something wrong in the way you are “defending” America. It is as though you’re dying a little as you do it. In other words, you’re only defending it in order to put India down. If you didn’t have to attack India, you would be attacking America right now, wouldn’t you? Something is off here.

    I do not think you are American at all.

  • browneyes

    Got it. You’re definitely not American. You might be an American citizen, but you are almost certainly not really American.

    Let me ask you. What do you think of Israel? Or of George Bush? You know, George Bush has a really high approval rating in India. Indians love the man. In fact, we tie with Israel and the Philippines in terms of how much we like him. What do you make of that? Do you agree that Israel is a basically good country trying to do the best it can in a tough area of the world?

  • browneyes

    JVG, I strongly suspect that the guys baiting Indians in this discussion are not American at all. It’s the usual thing where they get Indians and Japanese (less often) pitted against British or American posters. I already got suckered into it and said harsh things about America which I am now regretting. Be aware. Pakistani or Chinese. More likely Pakistani based on the specific slant of the posts. I wouldn’t be surprised if these same guys are slamming America in some other conversation pretending to be Indian.

  • mxm123

    Great. I’m wrong, the Economist is wrong, the millions who want to come to America are wrong. There’s one thing right. You truly are Indian. Some things never change.

  • browneyes

    MiG-21MF, this dafa is probably Pakistani. It doesn’t matter what you say to him. This is just another jihadi front to him. Be aware.

  • mxm123

    First you tell me the Indian govt. cannot ban a channel which it did.
    Next since i know so much about Israel, you’ll tell me i’m truly not American, nor Indian.

    All i can say, is look at India. The last meeting i attended your own govt. promised to remove nonsensical rules. And the word nonsensical came outta their mouth. I guess you disagree with them.

  • browneyes

    You are not American and you are not Indian. So what do you care what goes on between America and India? It is for Americans and Indians to decide what to do between themselves – good, bad, love, fight, whatever.

    Let me just say one simple thing here. I would rather have America dominate the world than anybody else. I want America to remain engaged and present in Asia and the Middle East. I want America to be the dominant presence in these regions. I want it to be the most powerful country in the world. And, yes, I want American culture to pervade the world too – I definitely want OPEN flow of information – cartoons, books, movies, the whole lot. Burns you up, doesn’t it?

    You can take a hike. And, oh, look above you – American drone! Duck!

  • browneyes

    Give it up and move on to the next sucker. You’re totally exposed here. And, hey, as you go: Israel is awesome!

  • mxm123

    I defend America, cause i’ve seen India and its potential. I’ve seen all i needed to see. Just like the author of this article. Then i guess there’s one thing to be learned. There’s no changing an Indian. So sad.

  • mxm123

    Go watch Al-Jazeera. Oh wait, its off the air. Watch a documentary. Oh wait some of those are banned too !!!

  • browneyes

    Yeah, I don’t think so. You hate America. It’s quite obvious you do.

    I was just so wrapped-up in the nice little track you laid out for me that I didn’t see it at first. This is ironic. I accused America of being naive in getting into Iraq unnecessarily. All the time I was being baited into being negative about America when in fact, like most Indians, I am super-positive about the country. Note to self: see what is, not what appears to be.

  • mxm123

    This is an American website. I don’t need permission from your govt, (and certainly not mine) to post. Do they still file charges against people in India when they hit likes on Facebook ?

    You want all that, but you justify censorship. Great.

  • browneyes

    Long Live Israel!

  • browneyes

    LOL, yes it does burn. America forever!

    The United States of America is the most awesome, the most just, the greatest nation that has ever existed on the face of our planet. And, yes, for all it shortcomings, it expresses the best that there is in humanity and aspires for the best that humanity could possibly aspire to. Of this, there is no question. Even as an Indian, I can see this for the truth that it is. I think most freethinking people in the world can see it.

    I actually genuinely mean these words. I think most Indians would be able to say it quite honestly. Yes, we want to be more like America is in that sense. But it’s hurting you to hear all this, isn’t it? And you’re trapped now. Because to oppose these words demolishes your bogus construct completely. I love it!

  • browneyes

    I understand.