OPINIONS

Kim Davis and the Power of the Supreme Court

Before late summer 2015, Kim Davis was just another county clerk.  Today, she is more famous than Ted Cruz.  Davis has become a media fixture as the Kentucky county clerk who stopped giving out marriage licenses after the Supreme Court’s decision in Obergefell v. Hodges, citing her religious objection to same-sex marriage.  A federal district judge held her in contempt for refusing to issue or certify same-sex marriage licenses, though some have argued that Davis may have a right to certain accommodations for her religious beliefs.  A lawsuit against Davis addressing those issues is currently on appeal.

Cruz, the senator and presidential hopeful, has fueled the fire of the Kim Davis saga – appearing alongside Davis and Mike Huckabee at the rally for her release, to the theme of Survivor’s “Eye of the Tiger” (a legal debacle of its own for another day).  In a statement released on his website, Cruz called Davis’s arrest “judicial lawlessness crossed into judicial tyranny” and called for “every Believer, every Constitutionalist, every lover of liberty to stand with Kim Davis” – ostensibly at the expense of enforcing the Supreme Court’s ruling.  Indeed, Cruz presaged Davis’s rise to fame, arguing in the days following the Obergefell decision that clerks could object to issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples and that states not expressly named in the decision had “no legal obligation to acquiesce.”

Davis and Cruz are not alone.  Vance D. Day, an Oregon circuit judge, is now refusing to perform marriages between same-sex couples, arguing it violates his First Amendment rights. In Alabama, a probate judge named Nick Williams filed a brief with the state’s supreme court asking it to nullify Obergefell v. Hodges and has recently also filed a protective order petition requesting that he not be forced to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. Similar examples have also sprouted up in Texas, Indiana, and Ohio. Even the Pope appears to have weighed in – he met with Davis during his recent trip to Washington and later stated that the right to conscientious objection is a right that is a part of every human right.” While the Pope did not explicitly endorse the disregarding of Supreme Court decisions as part of that right, some news outlets have already interpreted it that way.

What does all this resistance from government officials to the Supreme Court’s decision say about the Court’s role in American government and society?  Does everyone have to follow the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Constitution?

Resistance to the Supreme Court’s authority is nothing new.  In 1803, the landmark case of Marbury v. Madison established the Court’s power to review the constitutionality of actions by other branches of government.  But the case also highlighted the Court’s inherent weakness.  The lawsuit asked whether President Thomas Jefferson’s new Republican administration had to honor the last-minute appointment of a justice of the peace by the outgoing Federalist president.  Chief Justice John Marshall knew that if the Court ordered the Jefferson administration to install Marbury as justice of the peace (as he’d been promised by John Adams), Jefferson would simply refuse to follow the ruling.  So Marshall wrote an opinion declaring that courts have ultimate authority to interpret the Constitution, but declining – on technical legal grounds – to actually order Jefferson’s administration to grant Marbury his position.

Resistance to the interpretive authority of the Supreme Court has occurred regularly ever since.  After an adverse decision in Worcester v. Georgia (another Chief Justice Marshall classic), President Andrew Jackson is said to have responded, “John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!”  In the 1950s, the Court outlawed school segregation in Brown v. Board of Education, then had to issue another opinion in Cooper v. Aaron calling for “the obedience of the States,” after southern states asserted the power to ignore Supreme Court decisions with which they disagreed.  Cooper asserts judicial supremacy – that is, the power of the Supreme Court to serve as the ultimate authority over the meaning of the Constitution, binding on both the federal government and state governments.

These cases of resistance demonstrate the judiciary’s weakness as an independent branch of government.  Judges must rely on other government officials – in the executive or legislative branches of the federal government, or in state or local governments – to implement and enforce their orders.  When those other divisions of government disagree with the Court’s decision, the Court may be forced to curtail its own actions (as in Marbury). Or the Court might hope that it has enough support among other divisions of government to carry out its directives (as in Brown, which was enforced by President Eisenhower’s deployment of the Army’s 101st Airborne Division to ensure the African American students’ safety, and later bolstered by congressional passage of the Civil Rights Act).

Of course, the judicial branch has substantial powers to encourage compliance. For one, lower courts may hold steadfast objectors in contempt of court. Such specific contempt orders are almost certain to be enforced, therefore helping to bring intransigent officials into compliance. That’s how Kim Davis wound up in jail. Courts also have the lesser-known ability to fashion other kinds of solutions. For instance, the judge in Kentucky could have forbidden Davis from issuing marriage licenses, effectively transferring her power to another state official or ordered the county to withhold some portion of Davis’s salary attributable to marriage-licensing.

But the fact remains that these solutions are, in the end, words on a page. When push comes to shove, somebody other than a judge must escort the holdout to jail.  Thus, at bottom, the Court’s decisions are constrained by the views of other branches and levels of government.  Unless the Court stays within the bounds of what other government officials consider plausible, legitimate views, it is powerless to carry out its holdings.  So while the Court – comprised of unelected, lifetime-tenured judges – is often vilified as undemocratic, it is ultimately accountable to the people and their representatives.

The Supreme Court (and conventional wisdom) would say that everyone does have to follow the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Constitution.  But challenges to that view – from history, legal scholars, and modern Kim Davises and Ted Cruzes – abound.  And despite the controversy and occasional firestorm, that debate is probably a good thing. It reminds us that the Court, with “neither force nor will,” takes part in an “ongoing dialogue between and among the branches of Government.”  In the end, it’s your democratically elected representatives who shape what vision of the law is followed.

Brittany Jones is the president of the Stanford Law Review. Alex Twinem is one of the Stanford Law Review’s managing editors. Michael Qian is one of the Stanford Law Review’s executive editors. Danny Kane is one of the Stanford Law Review’s senior editors. Contact them at bjones2 ‘at’ stanford.edu, atwinem ‘at’ stanford.edu, mfqian ‘at’ stanford.edu, and dkane ‘at’ stanford.edu.

  • http://www.culteducation.com Rick Alan Ross

    Here is the final irony regarding the relationship between Kim Davis, Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee. Davis and the fringe sect of Pentecostalism she belongs to, does not accept the salvation of Evangelicals and most Pentecostals. Davis and her church believe that that Christians must reject the doctrine of the trinity and be re-baptized in the name of Jesus only to receive salvation.

    See http://www.cultnews.com/2015/09/does-kim-davis-believe-mike-huckabee-and-ted-cruz-are-condemned-to-hell/

    So Davis is intolerant of other Christians like Huckabee and Cruz, who are Southern Baptists, and believes that their faith is insufficient to receive salvation.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    The authors fail to acknowledge a fundamental proposition of American government: what the people want is not always right. By claiming that political power ultimately rests in the hands of elected officials, the authors ignore the purpose of institutions such as the Bill of Rights, which exist to prevent the mob rule the Founding Fathers so feared. The Supreme Court and the rest of our judicial system exist partially to protect the American people from this “tyranny of the majority.” By claiming that the debate over whether we have to obey the decisions of the Court is a “good thing”, the authors ignore the nightmare the Founding Fathers foresaw when the will of the people seeks to deny others the rights guaranteed to all humanity.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    You fail to acknowledge that sodomy is not marriage, it’s not a fundamental right, homosexuality is not normal, and the Founding Fathers, had they known that someday, part of the American public would be so degenerate in terms of sexuality, that they would claim this is what the Constitution they were instituting was stipulating, they would have explicitly written safeguards in the Constitution to never let liberals claim this is what the Constitution says in terms of rights, and to protect decent people like Kim Davis from being persecuted and thrown in jail when liberals use the State for such purposes.
    In fact, they did write the 1A, but now liberals are using their distorted claims of the 14th to destroy the rights guaranteed by the 1A and the rest of the Constitution.

  • Candid One

    Maybe you need to realize that sodomy isn’t merely a homosexual practice. By granting marriage only to heterosexual couples, sodomy isn’t being prevented among any couples. Narrow-minded constructs are merely denials of a world that doesn’t conform to flat-Earth pretenses.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    It is true that many of the Founding Fathers would disapprove of our society granting gay couples the legal right to marry. But many of the Founding Fathers would also disapprove of having a black president or granting women the right to vote. Do you agree with them on those issues also?

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    No. But right now, Kim Davis is in the minority and she is being attacked by a majority of liberals pushing sodomy as normal and as marriage. Liberals can drop the pretense that they give one whit to any “Founding Father”.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    I’m using sodomy in its larger sense of unnatural and perverted sexual acts – which is the only thing homosexuals want to do. The way one prevents people from having sex with children, sheep, in porn or prostitution, or with people of the same sex is by understanding that all these desires and behaviors are deformed and perverted. Marriage, all by itself, is never going to prevent any deformed or perverted sexual act. Two homosexuals can get their farcical marriage certificate and still sexually abuse children, or prostitute themselves, or spread HIV and syphilis, or rape sheep and other people. A piece of paper cannot control people.

    The Bill of Rights doesn’t include any right from any sexual pervert to institute sodomy as marriage or to jail public officials who stand for the real meaning of marriage. Only troglodytes think this way. Were Kim Davis non religious, she should have the same right to refuse to give out a marriage license to people whose psychology is so deformed that all they want is sodomy, being incapable of establishing a healthy sexual and personal relationship – which can only happen in a heterosexual context.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    By the same logic, if a small group of people decided that they still wanted to own slaves and a majority of “liberals” attacked them for violating the rights of another human being, you would support the minority. With the arguments you have made, it is impossible not to also support slavery.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    No, I wouldn’t because I’m against slavery. And I can support Kim Davis with the same argument – liberals do not have the right to violate her rights or to own slaves, whether they are the majority or the minority.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    You have not demonstrated how the slavery and the Kim Davis cases are different from one another. Explaining your positions simply by repeating that you don’t support slavery and that you support Kim Davis is like saying the sky is blue because it’s blue. Instead of explaining why you believe something, you’re repeating the same thing over and over again.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    Given that I stated only once that I don’t support slavery – that can not be repeating the same thing over and over, can it? But maybe on your level of crazy it is!

    The Kim Davis case and the slavery example are the same – not different. I didn’t just explain my position by saying that I didn’t support slavery and support Kim Davis, I exactly explained why – in both cases the rights of people are being violated, the slaves’ rights and Kim Davis’ rights.

    Don’t blame others if you’re incapable of understanding basic English.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    The slavery and Kim Davis cases are the same-in both instances we have a minority (Kim Davis and slave owners) trying to take away the rights of others (gay couples, slaves) in a way that the majority does not approve of. Standing with Kim Davis is tantamount (by the logic you expressed in the comment that begins “No. But right now…) to standing with slave owners-in both cases, you support someone who seeks to violate the rights of another human being.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    You cannot violate other people’s rights simply because you are fixated on sodomy. It doesn’t matter if Kim Davis is the tiniest minority or the biggest majority, she has rights that you are not entitled to violate. Rights exist independently of any minority/majority status.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    Kim Davis’ beliefs are based upon denying the rights of others to marry whom they love. Forcing her to recognize that gays are equal citizens is not a violation of her rights-it is an affirmation of the rights of others.

  • Candid One

    Your moral and conceptual constructs are personal choices that are protected under the Bill of Rights–which also applies to those who have made different choices. As the renown Thomas Paine allegedly said, “If I do not believe as you believe, that only proves that you do not believe as I believe, and that’s all that this proves.” Kim Davis, the individual is protected by the Bill of Rights–and so are those individuals who apply for marriage licenses–under their beliefs. As a public official–duly elected and sworn into office, Kim Davis has no choice on that individual level. Her personal beliefs–and yours–are not pertinent to that legal licensing process.

  • Candid One

    As an individual, Kim Davis is a minority of her own choice. As a public official, her individuality is not pertinent. “Normal” is a myth of your concoction–to which you can freely subscribe, but that’s the extent of your subscription…you may not prescribe for anyone else.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    The fact that you think you are entitled to force other people to subscribe to your deranged idea that sodomy is normal or put them in jail goes to show how demented you are.
    It is liberals like you who are not entitled to prescribe your deranged notion of normal for anyone else – and certainly not use the state to persecute them.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    Kim Davis isn’t crazy or dishonest, that’s why she knows that sodomy isn’t love and that sodomy isn’t marriage. Marriage can only be between a man and a woman and she isn’t denying anyone the right to marry.
    Having a homosexual problem is not equal to having a healthy heterosexual mind. A homosexual psychology is deformed and it is simply not equal to a healthy heterosexual psychology. Homosexuality is similar to other deformed psychologies like pedophilia, S&M, bestiality, etc.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    Your comparison of homosexuality to pedophilia has no basis in science. Simply put, you’re wrong.

  • scottrose

    You are a filthy anti-gay bigot.

  • scottrose

    Alessandra, this is for you.

  • Moebius

    Yeah, tell that to Terry Bean.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    Simply pointing to one example of a gay man who abused children does not establish any correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. I could very easily do the same with heterosexuality.

  • Moebius

    Well, it’s more significant that he’s not just gay, but the founder of the Human Rights Campaign. You would think he’d have been more determined in such a position to demonstrate by his own actions that he was really ONLY interested in the cause of same-sex “marriage” and not do anything which would feed any suspicion that it’s about something more.

    But what is the principled (as opposed to merely strategic—that is, that it might alienate heterosexual supporters of SSM) reason for homosexuals to oppose sex between adult “mentors” and teenage “pupils” when it is not clearly coercive?

    If it is argued (as I’m sure it will be shortly) that one of the main setbacks to full acceptance of homosexuality is the negative perception of homosexual acts, and that the best way to combat this negative perception is to encourage the young to experiment with homosexuality (with peers or older “mentors”) whenever they are ready to be “sexually active” so that they are not so repulsed by it and are thus more accepting of homosexual individuals, what is the reason you who support SSM would argue against this position?

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    Says a filthy sodomy bigot.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    Thinking and behaving like a pig regarding sex does not entitle anyone to force Kim Davis or any other American to give people a marriage license for sodomy.
    Today, Kim Davis has the choice that every Rosa Parks has. If a group of perverted Americans like yourself wants to enforce laws that violate her rights, she is right to stand up against these disgraceful Americans – who are intent on using the law to institute perversity.
    You can be immoral but not to the extent where you persecute moral Americans like Kim Davis.
    You can apply for marriage licences for marrying a child, a dog, two men, three men, or a pig – Kim Davis is only right to refuse them all because marriage is not “any moral choice” that any pervert decides it is.

  • http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/ Alessandra

    Of course you can. You can establish correlation between homosexuality and sexual harassment of same-sex adults and youngsters, or of sexual abuse of same-sex adults and youngsters, or of prostitution of same-sex adults and youngsters, etc. If you look inside the mind of any homosexual pedophile, or of a homosexual sexual harasser of adults, or of a homosexual pimp, you will find a deformed mind, whose perverse ideas about relationships and sex form the common basis for their egregious behaviors

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    If you can point me to a reputable scientific study backing any of this up (and you won’t be able to, because none exists), then I will believe you. Right now, you’re just stating a bunch of unfounded opinions that you have.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    In regard to your first point, I agree that it was strategically wrong for Terry Bean to do what he did. More importantly, it was morally wrong and predatory. But that still establishes no relation between homosexuality and pedophilia. One man’s weakness does not speak for an entire demographic.

    My answer to your second point is simple. As a supporter of same-sex marriage, I can tell you that it is always wrong for an adult to have sex with a minor, no matter their sexual orientation. There are plenty of far more moral and more effective ways of eradicating the stigma surrounding same sex marriage than the one you described.

  • Moebius

    I am fully aware that you don’t prove something for a group by one example. I said “tell that to Terry Bean”, though, because the whole episode does suggest something about the LGBT movement’s attitude toward what he did.

    Has Terry Bean been told by people in the Human Rights Campaign to completely disassociate from the group? Has he been condemned for his actions. (If not for the action itself, which you can argue he has not been convicted of, at least for trying to settle it by paying the accuser $200,000, and for the convenience of the youth’s “disappearance”. No, I’m not implying the accuser is dead. I’m saying the whole thing reeks of a payoff.) That he has not been condemned in the strongest terms for this by the LGBT lobby, or at least asked to disassociate, suggests something about just how much such actions are really disapproved of among them. I’ve seen this kind of reaction from the lobby in many other cases where those who can’t be accused of “hypocrisy” are accused of homosexual activity with underage boys, including some involving pro-LGBT congressmen so accused, like Rep. Fred Richmond and Rep. Gerry Studds, both of whom were largely defended by the lobby.

    We know that there are plenty of pedophiles who attack girls. But have you ever wondered why there is a NAMBLA, but no NAMGLA, or any organization like it nearly as powerful and organized? Hetero-pedophiles hurt little girls for life when they can’t or won’t control their urges, but as evil as they are for that, they seem to at least still know that it’s wrong, and know better than to try to argue for its legalization or for lowering the age of consent. But a David Thorstad thinks it is a perfectly good idea to start a whole organization of which the whole purpose is to legalize sex between adult men and underage boys, or to lower the age of consent. And his organization has or had at least a thousand members. I know, since the 1980s the main LGBT groups have disassociated themselves from NAMBLA, but I question how much this is due to genuine disapproval and how much it is simply strategy to appear more mainstream.

    “My answer to your second point is simple. As a supporter of same-sex
    marriage, I can tell you that it is always wrong for an adult to have
    sex with a minor, no matter their sexual orientation.”

    And no matter how much below the legal age of consent? Are you so sure how much homosexual men agree with that? Up until the ’80s when they decided strategically to try to go mainstream, it was part of the platform of the gay rights movement that the age of consent should be lowered. (I don’t have the links to the Chicago Statement of 1972 handy right now, but I should be able to dig them up if they have not been totally removed). Why?

    You want scientific proof, you say. Well, do you have any survey results (preferably those by sympathetic organizations) regarding the percentage of self-identified gay men (not just men going through a crisis over their orientation) who admit to ever, as adults, having sexual relations with boys under legal age, and comparing this number with the percentage of heterosexual men who admit sex with underage girls? I don’t have the numbers now, but I do recall such surveys in the ’70s and ’80s. Of course, whatever the numbers are they are likely to be underreported for both groups.

    I know being homosexual does not in itself make one a child molestor. But there are two problems with the statement that “gays are no more likely to molest children than heteros”. First, we’re not just talking about true pedophilia in the psychiatric sense. Legally, we’re talking more about ephebophilia, the attraction to teenagers, which psychologically is just a subset of normal adult sexual attraction and is essentially normal as far as the attraction goes, though we do not approve of people acting on the attraction.

    That last statement, I think, is where there’s a big difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. As a group, homosexuals are less likely to disapprove of acting on the attraction to teenagers, and there are reasons why this is so. Simply put, there’s no built in natural motive for them to oppose sexual activity with teenage boys, while there is at least a good built in natural motive for heterosexuals to oppose sexual activity with teenage girls. Girls get pregnant, and parents don’t in general want them to get pregnant when they are not mature enough. And they don’t want boys being faced with the responsibility of being a father before they are mature enough. Also, parents don’t want their kids treating sex too casually as it may interfere with their properly maturing their perception toward it when they are old enough to get married and have kids. All of these arguments, however, don’t apply to homosexual activity, though heterosexual parents are likely to oppose such activity in teenagers as it is felt it may screw up their later emotional ability to relate to the opposite sex and get married and have kids. Right or wrong, that’s what the parents are likely to feel. But what is the motive for homosexuals to oppose homosexual activity for teenagers? Not just between teenagers, but between teenagers and adults?

    Discus, I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you are not homosexual yourself, but a heterosexual progressive egalitarian sympathizer. Your arguments fit the pattern. You assume that homosexuals and heterosexuals must be the same in all respects because nature is somehow “fair” about such things, though there’s no logical basis for this assumption.

    “There are plenty of far more moral and more effective ways of
    eradicating the stigma surrounding same sex marriage than the one you
    described.”

    But what if they’re not enough?

    One of the things progressive egalitarians don’t seem to realize is something I’ll call “deTocqueville’s law”—that equality is an elusive butterfly, and that the closer you come to it, the more the remaining inequalities that still exist become magnified as great wrongs that have to be eradicated. This has been true of every group that has sought and formed institutions dedicated to advancing their equality at least since after World War II. You may think these other ways (which I’ll ask you about some other time) may be effective, but I will wager they won’t be effective enough to satisfy many, and the idea I described will not stay off the table.

  • disqus_tv8NYRLpuB

    In regards to your first point about the marriage equality movement and Terry Bean:
    If this man truly committed the crime that you claim he did, then the movement should distance itself from him. But there are plenty of other reasons why the moment did not distance itself form him besides the one you described. Perhaps the movement had so few allies at the time that it was reluctant to admit that one of its leaders was guilty of such a monstrous act (a choice that I would still disagree with). Perhaps the movement felt that the court system would punish him, and that there was no need to attract negative attention to the movement by condemning him
    (I’m not sure if I would agree with this rationale either).

    In summary, the movement’s failure to criticize Bean does not necessarily imply that it approved of its actions.

    For the sake of argument, let’s assume that your claim “there is a NAMBLA, but no NAMGLA, or any organization like it nearly as powerful and organized” is true. There are no black supremacy organizations as powerful or as organized as the KKK. Does this mean that white people are inherently more racist and more violent than black people?

    I don’t need to present scientific proof. All I said was that no evidence exists linking homosexuality to pedophilia. You said that such evidenceexists. It is up to you to produce the evidence that you claim exists.

    In regards to your claim about pregnancy and its effect on discouraging heterosexual relations:

    In an age and a country where birth control is readily available to many people, pregnancy is not the deterrent to sexual relations that it once was. But, even with birth control, there are plenty of reasons why people choose not to have sex: it is against their religious values, they feel it would complicate their relationship with another person, they don’t want to share such an intimate part of themselves, they are afraid of being distracted from their career or education, or they simply do not want to. None of these reasons has anything to do with sexual orientation.

    “As a group, homosexuals are less likely to disapprove of acting on the attraction to teenagers, and there are reasons why this is so.” Once again, you make a claim without citing any evidence. Instead, you rely exclusively on a logical argument–which might sound nice but, unless evidence exists to support it, may or may not be true. Unless you produce reliable evidence indicating that pregnancy actually discourages heterosexuals from having sex with teenagers, I remain unconvinced that this is the case.

    I’m not sure what a “heterosexual progressive egalitarian sympathizer” is, so I can’t say if I am one or not. I never said that homo and heterosexuality are the same; all I said was that there is no evidence suggesting one is more correlated with pedophilia than the other.

    I’mcurious about this phenonemon you call “deTocqueville’s law”. I have never encountered it before. Is this a documented trend? If so, please attach a link to your next comment so that I can learn about it.

  • Moebius

    In response to your general “give me confirmation” response:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHFoR6KqzAY.

    Not everything lends itself so easily to a scientific test. I don’t know how you would go about setting up a test, for instance, that would conclusively prove whether or not the threat of pregnancy is more of a deterrent to having sex with teenagers (individually or culturally) than career ambition or “just not wanting to” is. (Particularly as a pregnant teenager further complicates all the other reasons you list). Studies on motivation are necessarily more uncertain than studies on something concrete, but I suppose you’ll ask for studies proving that as well. In other words, your insistence on studies is a great way of avoiding argument or logic, until it may be too late, as in the clip above.

    On some questions, however, it is curious why it is so hard to find studies which could quite simply settle the matter—for instance, as to whether or not self-proclaimed gay adult males are or are not more likely to have engaged in sex with teenage boys than heterosexual male adults are to have engaged in sex with teenage girls. Yet it says something about you that you just assume that in the absence of “reputable studies” (naturally, that word “reputable” leads to still more disagreement so nothing gets settled), we should just assume that the percentages are the same. This is the essence of “progressive egalitarianism”, the belief that we should assume things to be equal, even when there are good logical reasons why they probably aren’t.

    I gave you an example of the kind of study which could at least attempt to measure the question we are asking objectively. I admit I am not very good at fishing the internet for studies—you need to have the right connections for that, it seems—but I do not find any reason why it’s more up to me to provide studies proving that the numbers are not equal than it is up to you to find studies proving that they are. Unless you can give me scientific, or logical, proof as to why we must assume equality as the default position, especially between things which have a major difference.

    Regarding Terry Bean, you said: “Perhaps the movement had so few allies at the time that it was reluctant
    to admit that one of its leaders was guilty of such a monstrous act”.

    I know that wasn’t supposed to be funny, but it was.

    “There are no black supremacy organizations as powerful or as organized
    as the KKK. Does this mean that white people are inherently more racist
    and more violent than black people?”

    First of all, whites are a majority in this country, so just on that basis you might expect white racist organizations to be larger and more organized than black racist organizations. Similarly, since there are numerically more heterosexual pedophiles than homosexual pedophiles, you might naturally expect organizations advocating the former to be more organized than organizations advocating the latter. There has to be some reason why the opposite is the case.

    Also, it’s highly debatable that there are no comparable black racist organizations. Farrakhan’s branch of the Black Muslims does indeed preach black racial supremacy, but let’s not get off on a tangent there.

    “All I said was that no evidence exists linking homosexuality to pedophilia.”

    Again, we are not even talking primarily about pedophilia, but about ephebophilia. Why do you keep obfuscating by referring to “pedophilia”?

    As Tammy Bruce (herself a lesbian) states it: “Their mantra is: Gay men are not pedophiles. Technically, they’re right, but it really is just a cynical spin of semantics. Pedophilia indicates attraction to those 12 years old and younger. In fact, the problem the Boy Scouts have avoided by excluding gay men as Scout leaders is ephebophilia, or an attraction to adolescents. What the gay establishment does not want you to think about is the fact that adult men being attracted to female adolescents is called “heterosexuality”, while adult men being attracted to male adolescents is called—surprise—“homosexuality”“.

    In other words, attraction to teenagers is normal for both heterosexuals and homosexuals. The degree to which they don’t act on that attraction is due to the motives the individual, and the culture, put in place to discourage this, and this can relate to natural differences and cultural proscription as well as legal proscription. And the natural differences can be the underlying reason for the proscriptions, as well as the difference in how different cultures (or subcultures) relate to them. That girls get pregnant and boys don’t is a big difference, and I feel as or more justified insisting that you prove that it means nothing in relation to acting on one’s attractions as you do in insisting that I prove that it does mean something.

    Lastly, again regarding your general argument, “prove it with studies or it means nothing”:

    You said earlier: “I can tell you that it is always wrong for an adult to have sex with a minor, no matter their sexual orientation.”

    I agree with you fully. But I don’t have the absolute conclusive studies to scientifically prove this. With physically forced sex, yes. But if someone asks me to produce irrefutably “reputable” studies “proving” that non-coercive sex between adults and minors is psychologically harmful, particularly when no threat of pregnancy is involved, I don’t have the “proof”. I believe there are very good reasons to believe it is harmful. Do you have the proof? Be prepared to produce it someday soon, when it is likely to be argued that it is not harmful, especially between men and boys. There have already been some arguing this, but no, I don’t have the links now. Soon, you may well be the one being pushed to either present “proof” that what you believe is always wrong is in fact harmful, or else assume that it is not.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHFoR6KqzAY