Sorry to do this again, but we appear to have another influx of commenters. Just a reminder to the new people to be civil and respectful even when you suspect the person you're debating is a blithering idiot. More often then not, you're probably wrong.
Avoid overheated rhetoric, presuming motives and--more than anything--all caps. NO ONE LIKES BEING YELLED AT. One warning on the first time. A banning will follow.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Copyright © 2010 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.
We're no longer allowed to pop CAPS in anyone's ass?
I think I just remembered I'm white.
I just remembered you're white. ;-)
I'm white, but my Grandpa was a gangster. Is my ass capping potential determined by the color of my skin, or the content of my (relative's) character?
DENTAL PLAN
Lisa needs braces.
On another note perhaps we need to make use of the irony mark and interrobang to help clear things up.
i certainly hope that you are being intentionally ironic about using irony marks in mixed company
DENTAL PLAN
Interrobang sounds like it is about the most dirty word imaginable. I love it
I'm pretty sure interrobanging was used at Gitmo
Sounds like MF Doom time to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewc1hixzYPY
NO ONE WANTS TO CLICK YOUR LINK YOU BLITHERING IDIOT
What about bold ? Can we still do that to them? Especially if they're hungover.
TNC: Ya know, you probably wouldn't have to "keep doing this" if you made your commenting policy posts permanent links somewhere on this thing. just sayin'...
I do need to do that. But that's more complicated than you might think. That said, I'd still have to do this. People wouldn't read it, unless I had a post like this.
oh I'm sure people still wouldn't read it. you can just cut and paste the url in that case every time lol
it wouldn't help to post rules (reminds me of my peeps in the academy who fall into writing up 10pg long syllabi full of rules/expectations trying to get students to do what they are supposed to do) in fact it could make things worse as people feel that anything not listed is ok and or want to argue about interpretations of the rules. nothing to do but lead by example and bring the pain to folks who persist after warnings.
dmf: people don't argue now about the interpretation of the rules when TNC periodically does these rules posts. And I don't really think he's gonna indulge in people's need "to argue" with him about the rules on his own blog. I see bannings in people's future if they choose to go that route.
I would not like to tell you how small my readership is, but even so, on my teeny tiny blog, I have an "About Commenting" page -- and people frequently click on it. Pinky swear.
People are supposed to know not to yell at each other, call each other names like "blithering idiot" (or similar), all that jazz. Are there blogs where this kind of behavior is OK? (Oh, all right, I guess there probably are.)
We shouldn't have to have TNC continually remind us of all this. I'm not saying he doesn't have to, I'm just saying he shouldn't have to.
Juaquin Murrieta:
I agree with your point. But i am surprised about your comment about whether there are blogs where bad behavior is "ok".
In my experience most political blog's comment sections are filled with far worse insults than "blithering idiot". Sadly it is very common for commenters on many blogs to write obcenities about other commenters. Some comment sections resemble 2 grade arguements.
This rudeness is not confined to any political beliefs. Both right and left wing blogs are full of this behavior.But it almost always is male. Maybe it's just me but Ta-Nehisi Coates's comments section has a lot of female commenters for a political blog.Most political blogs that i have read have almost all male commenters.
I dont think that it is because women arent interested in politics.I think that it is because most women dont get into childish namecalling on the internet.I have yet to read a comment by a woman which starts out with " Your wrong ***hole!".Sadly this behavior is displayed by my own gender.
@Juaquin: oh yeah, just click over to McArdle's place,and you'll see some name-calling (occasionally though form what I undestand) bad faith arguing, and just general patronizing verbal meanness. Half the stuff that goes over over there would never be allowed on this blog.
I often hear complaints about McCardle's comments section .But i have always found it to be somewhat tame.I comment there [rarely] and also on this blog and on Matthew Yglesias's blog.
While i enjoy reading MR Yglesias's posts[even if i often disagree with them] i am saddened by some of the behavior in his comments secton.It has many very intelligent and interesting people commenting. But a small minority basically dominate some threads by calling each other "***hole".
I dont mean to bad-mouth MR Yglesias's blog.But it is a perfect example of what happens to a comments section when it is not moderated.Once people start trading insults on a thread the majority stop commenting. i have seen this happen to many threads on that blog.Up to comment 20 the comments are interesting.Then the name calling starts.Soon its 3 or 4 people trash talking each other.
I think that this is what happens on a national level in this country.Most people that i know ,liberal or conservative , are fairly smart and open-minded[although there are some idiots of course].
But our national conversations are dominated by loudmouth jerks.Listening to the liberal "talking heads " makes me want to vote Republican. And listening to the conservative "talking heads" makes me want to vote Democrat .
I rarely comment over at McArdle's and if that's tame then I don't want to see wild! McArdle's section, to me, seems a little bit on the vicious side, unfairly so actually. People don't have to be "nice" but just plain being cutting seems to be the way it goes over there and because of that, I don't find it fun to get into debate there, because for me, it's so underservedly mean. I rarely comment over at Yglesias although I do read him quite a bit. I don't comment over there at Yglesias because yes, once in awhile it seems to devolve into name-calling but more than that, I think it's more loopy and just plain nutty crazy then anything, people say outrageous things that just make no sense.
Althought Megan does participate in her threads I'll giver her that. and she banned someone! that was neede. Sadly I wish I could see yglesias participate in his threads on any level.
Reply to silentbeeps reply to me
Silentbeep
I didnt meant to imply that it was all sweetness and light on McCardle's blog comments section.Simply that it's tame compared to others. She does have a rule about swearing as i recall.So there is no one calling someone else an "***hole" .
But you are right about some of the meanness in her comments section.Often it becomes less of a debate ,than intellectuall one-upmanship.This bothers me as much as name calling.I have had people attack me on blogs and i was agreeing with their position.But they were more interested in argueing about statistics to prove who was smarter.While i enjoy MR Yglesias's blog you see the same thing there sometimes.
It should be remembered that some [not all] commenters are people who have poor social skills and are attracted to the internet because they thrive in the atmosphere of anonomyty.Excuse me for being blunt, but i have read a few comments by guys who obviously were beaten up and picked on a lot as children.They still have "issues" and they themselves ,resort to bullying tactics on the internet.Its their way of lashing out at the world. These types should be pitied ,not hated.
BTW ,The fact that McCardle's blog is tame compared to others speaks volumns about some of the other blogs out there.If you want to see meanness read the RedState blog.It disgusts me ,and im conservative.
@ Pete
Hmm o.k. Red State...Yeah I limit my blog reading to places that seem not to devolve into name calling, so I rarely see it. Maybe because I just don't bother the moment I see something just totally crazy like an AOL thread or something. But to get back on topic: yay for TNC's rules!
*smile*
TNC, did you see this? http://faultline.org/index.php/site/item/incendiary/
The best part is the comments. (are the comments? "Is" sounds wrong.)
Awesome!
"this sentence puts the apostrophe in the wrong place in it’s use of the word its. THIS SENTENCE JUST GOES OFF THE FUCKING RAILS ANGRY ABOUT I DONT FUCKING KNOW OR CARE WHAT, ASSHOLES."
This link is hilarious!! Made my day.
I read through that yesterday, the comments section is indeed pure gold. It still has me wondering if those initial commenters are real independent readers spontaneously coming up with that stuff or if the blog writer coordinated the first comments in advance to get things rolling.
This is a comment supporting your recommendation of that blog post. Seriously, it was a laugh out loud moment here in the office.
Heh, I feel so popular now. You like me! You really like me!
Sorry--that should read:
This is a comment thank the other commenters for their approving comments on my comment, but other than that adding nothing of value to the discussion.
Great link! thanks for posting it!
Thank you, from the bottom of my interheart. I will use this for days, weeks and maybe even months to come.
New people acting up!? Stupid job. I miss everything.
Wait. I have a job. Yippeeee! And yay for lunch hour.
i am glad that MR Coates enforces rules that keep this blogs comment section civil.Having said that ,it's sad that he has to state things to grown adults that used to be taken for granted by young children.
I just came off another blog's comment section and i cant believe the amount of commenters there who think that its allright to start a reply to someone by saying "No your wrong ***hole" and ending by saying "**ck you".
I dont live in a fancy neighborhood.and i dont hang around the most sophisticated people. But i have never heard people discussing politics like that before.And after working in construction for over 20 years i have heard my share of swear words.But rarely that kind of blatent disrespect!
The fact that the offending commenters are often educated people makes it worse. I was under the impression that college was supposed to make someone more openminded, not less!
Maybe it's due to the anonymity of the internet.
I am glad that MR Coates keeps the conversations here civil.Just sad that he needs to.
Sometimes college just gives you more things to be close minded about.
Yeah, I think it's something about the anonymity. Kind of like how many people, including myself, often behave more aggressively when driving. Something about not having to look someone in the eye, or see body language.
There are few places on the internet that have comments sections I can stand reading, and they're usually comedy sites where people make additional jokes in the comments. This is the only place I know of that has real, valuable discussion, where people actually listen to each other!
Isn't this a shameful commentary on the debased thinking that goes on in people's head when they know accountability is unlikely?
Thanks for this reminder. Apologies to anyone I offended.
SORN
Your comments have always struck me as fairly polite and open minded[not to mention interesting], so i would not worry too much about offending someone in the past.
ha, not sure how college education does this " make someone more openminded, not less! " but it surely would help if we stuck to addressing/assessing peoples ideas/comments and not the character of the person.
if we could actually move away from presuming motives that would be a good day for our little experiment in civil discourse
So I just wanted to say here that I thought Richard Pryor was the first black president...........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_cdbByTeNE
We didn't forget that he was President. We had just forgotten that he was black.
Eric B is President.
Aw man, first day here and I almost provoked a riot. :/
Nah, you just almost got banned. ;-) [Or ØŸ, except that fewer people know what that is.]
No, TNC has talked about really valuing different voices in the comments, as long as people are really interested in discussing rather than not shouting. It is a different style here than most places, so he occasionally has to lay down the ground rules.
ØŸ And then the ban-hammer, if necessary. ØŸ
Eh, I was being ironically narcissistic on account of the fact someone busted out the caps lock on my ass in the White Matthews thread and TNC told him to chill.
I'm mostly just surprised CM has such rabid followers.
Just a quick correction, Mr. Coates. I like being yelled at.
did your parents make you wear a leash as a child?
Ah, I wonder what Skippy is doing now. A kid we all knew. Early '60s. Parents leashed him to a tree.
Fnarf: whaaaa?! get your jollies off somewhere else. I'm clutching my pearls just thinking about it...or,um, something like that...yeah that's it.
(winky smile)
TNC, after a year of lurking, figured I'd get on board.
wow threadjacking on your 1st comment right in the middle of a discussion of following the rules that's pretty sassy, welcome out of the shadows
Im fortunate in that my grammer and spelling is terrible.So i have to go over my comments and correct the bad grammer and sentence structure 4 or 5 times.Often i realise that im generalising about someones opinion or that my comment could be considered [ unintentionally]rude because of tone.Sadly i dont always catch these things.So i apoligise for any generalisations that i have made in the past.
I do think that rereading ones comments is useful though.It's like texting.Often texting and e-mails and comments on a blog can be taken differently than they are intended.Sarcasm ,subtlty and humour are hard to convey with texting,ect.
As i said in my earlier comment, some rudeness is inexcusable . But often here , some people dont realise how their comment may come across.The comment sounds different in their head than it does in other people's heads.i worry about this a lot in regards to my own comments.
As evidence that my spelling is bad ,i just realised that i misspelled the word "grammar" in my first sentence.Believe it or not , i do try to comment without spelling mistakes.So it's ignorance rather than laziness. My apoligies to all of the commenters here who are English teachers.
I'm an English teacher (college writing). No worries. I'd rather read your thoughtful posts than more polished ones without misspellings.
JamieMc:
Thanks for being so forgiving about my spelling.When i started to comment on blogs 6 months ago it was even worse.Im 40 and i hadn't written much since 10th grade.
Caps lock: BRING THE FUCKING FURY
Yeah. . .
I just wanted to point out how different a well moderated message board is from most sites on the net. The anonymity and the format combine into lethal cocktail of flamey nonsense from people who are no doubt decent people in real life. (Well, not always, but you get the idea.) You gotta make a point to keep things nice. I dunno why more blogs don't take the trouble to moderate things. I enjoy this comment board almost as much as the posts.
Case in point, check out "the Fray" comments section over at Slate sometime. I'm not here go badmouth Slate (since I read it, I obvioulsy think they're good at something over there), but Lord almighty, the comments they get over there sometimes are like a parody of useless internet rudeness. It's a shame, because I know that there is a potential for smart conversation over there.
Anyway, a big thanks to TNC for keeping this place so nice.
Geez!....all the yelling is making my hangover that would kill a small pony even worse. I drank on a week night, thats right. I did it just because. And now I suffer, but I suffer as a man that sucked it up and went to work. Now I'm off to job No. 2 in the restaurant - so the hair of the dog is near. But I can't agree with you more JamieMc - this place is cool.
But all caps are the way we html-un-savvy people bold or italicize!
I'll try :) Or I'll suck it up and learn some elementary html.
Wow - OK (or perhaps I should say "ok"), I just read you response to me on the Chris Matthews post.
You really need be less sensitive about people's font choice, TNC. It's fine that you write a post about what you prefer on your blog, but it comes across as unprofessional to scold people about something as silly as text font and style.
Call out the actual hateful and hurtful posts - that's the real problem.
These are the standards here. It's one blog. On one site. On the Internet. If the standards here strike you as unprofessional, that's fine. But then you should read another site and comment on another blog. No disrespect, but this won't change. If you don't like it, then you should. The Internet is too big. You have a lot of choices.
I beg to differ. Part of what many of us love about this blog, and what keeps us coming back to the blog, is the fact that TNC reads his comments and maintains a fairly high level of civility, and part of this civility comes from the rules and structure that he asks us to follow.
Also, dude, it's his blog! You don't go to someone's house, start yelling at another guest, get huffy when you're told to pipe down, and accuse the host of being over-sensitive and silly. Well, I suppose you can, but then don't be surprised if he or his friends escort you right out the door.
Daniel Kuehn:
I cant speak for MR Coates , but i dont think that font style per say is the issue.I think that using cap locks to "yell" at someone is what he is talking about.I accidentally posted a comment with all cap locks once[ my cap locks were stuck].I was called out on it by another commenter.
But when i apoligised and explained that my cap locks were stuck the other commenter understood and was forgiving about it.
When i use cap locks to emphasis a certain word [ such as BUT or AND ], i have had no complaints from anyone.
In short it's a matter of intent and tone than writing style.
Just as long as, as in the past, passion isn't mistaken for being rude, warnings not tempered with your better angels, and rikyrah is given a permanent pass on the all caps rule, especially in her back and forths with Irish Pirate.
ER for the Intertubes.
Come here, get healed.
Can I get a A-men.
I think Imma pass me some laws, drop me some bombs...
...and create a whole new civilization of peace and tenderness.
mercy.
uncle.
the oh so
lowercase
amen
corner among
mean skyscrapers
of cacophony
shopping out news of the day
and frayed hairstyles
Speaking of commenting etiquette- TNC you may need to ban Thrasher. Good grief.
Oh no! Thrasher just provided me with by far the biggest (unintentional) laugh I've ever had on this site. Black mothers do not name their daughters Anna! Ok, a steady diet of the clap trap would be poisonous, but as a "one-time only" it was hilarious!
I'm glad you've got a sense of humor about it, but that guy literally deserves to have his ass kicked for the disrespect he was showing both of you. I missed that exchange until a few minutes ago and it was the worst shit I can remember seeing here. The petty insults and childish narcissism of that little asshole were astonishing.
Thanks brucds, but I should heard Thrasher's footsteps under the bridge when he appeared to like writing "Big Black Buck" just a little too much in some of his earlier comments.
So other people think that guy's obnoxious too? Good, I'm not alone. He started like half a dozen threads in the Jim Caldwell post, all about the same thing.
And I, stupidly, kept replying to him as if he was arguing in good faith.
Eh, it's an honest mistake. He sort of sounded like he was making a good-faith (if completely insane) argument in that thread. You'd have to know what was going on in the other thread to put two and two together.
Holy shite. I just went back and read the madness, and felt like I'd fallen down a rabbit hole laced with PCP.
I thought Thrasher was just off his meds, but someone else noted that he's a bona fide troll from Red State/Politico. So yeah, just seconding Jamilah's request for the ban-hammer.
I remember Thrasher and his comments.As i recall i disagreed with his statements. But unless he was actually rude i would hope that MR Coates would not ban him.
I myself am fairly conservative in my politics.If MR Coates started to ban people because of their beliefs i would probably be one of the first to go.
I have no doubt whatsoever that this blog could survive without my comments . I would be the first to admit that i have not wrote anything particualy profound.But i do think that this blog would gradually turn into an "echo chamber", without differing opinions and differing viewpoints. I feel that this blog would be poorer without dissent . As would America!
If a person is annoying because he is rude , than by all means i hope he is banned.But i would hope that no one is banned because their OPINION is annoying. Unless their opinions are beyond the pale[ such as white supremacy,ect]
Pete: he was actually rude. For real. For me, it has nothing to do with his conservatism.
And FWIW i don't think I have ever read anyting of yours that I thought "deserved" for you to go, not once.
Me on the otherhand? I've pushed my luck in the past with thread jacking. I admit it!
Silentbeep and brucds
I will take your word on him being rude.As i said, i think rudeness is a valid reason to ban someone.I myself didnt remember him saying anything in particular that was specifacly rude .But i dont get a chance to read every last comment. And i have only vague memories of the arguement that he was making. I have even forgotten what the subject was he was argueing about.
In fact , i dont even remember him as liberal or conservative.I just recall him having a rather pointless debate with MR Coates and others.As i recall, i couldnt figure out the point he was trying to make.
Maybe thats why i missed his rudeness.I will read someones opinion if i disagree with them. But if they arent actually making a point then i will basicly ignore them.As i recall , he left several comments.
I would agree with you both, that he should be banned if he was rude to others.
Thrasher treated Jamilah and Anna P in a manner that was totally beyond the pale - the kind of despicably rude shit that would get him deservedly jammed up if he did it in person. I'm a bit rude and short with commenters here sometimes, so I'm sensitive to the question of overly tidy rules that don't take the fact of responding in the moment to account, but this guy is just a total creep who revels in his nastiness.
Brucds
Please see my above comment to both you and silentbeep.Its right above your comment.
One final comment for Brucds and Silentbeep and other commenters on the subject of Thrasher .
I remember Thrasher from a post from a couple of weeks ago. I just realised that you were all talking about the Chris Mtthews post.I had been digging a hole through layers of brick all day and had gone straight to sleep and had missed that debate.
Having read Thrashers comments on that post, i have come to two conclusions.
1- Either Thrasher is mentally ill.
or
2-Thrasher is a white guy doing a parody of what he thinks a "black activist" sounds like.
Either way you are correct about him being rude.
As i said, i thought you were talking about an earlier post in which he got into a debate with MR Coates in which Thrasher seemed to have no actuall point to make ..
Interestingly enough , i dont remember him using the "black activist" persona in his comments in the earlier post.This would lead me to my second conclusion about it being a sick parody.
Either way i apoligise about the misunderstanding on my part.I sincerly thought that you were talking about a different set of comments.
@pete: oh wow no wonder you thought we weren't making sense! No worries. That's kind of a funny misunderstanding actually.
There are probably better reasons to read TNC -- the poetry of "I Just Remembered Chris Matthews Was White" the latest example that comes to mind. But admonitions such as the one provided today are a fundamental reason I read here. The civility to be found is such a grace. I treasure it.
362 comments and he's still checking on us.
WTF ? ooops, I mean 'wtf?'
Daniel Kuehn is THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD !
(Keith Olberman joke! So the caps are okay if it's a joke, right ? You couldn't do Olberman without the caps.)
No but he's the most annoying person in this corner of the world right now. Him and Thrasher need to go.
I don't really have an opinion on this but I'm responding in italics out of respect for JD Salinger, who died today. Let's keep those italics alive!
Wow - just happend (unfortunately) on "Thrasher" in a prior thread. I'm thinking about baseball bats. Not a good place to be going in response to the Internets. Well, now at least I've got an opinion. Can't really print it all out here because it involves way more than unbridled caps.
This is one of my favorite parts about this blog. You have TNC basically saying:
"This is my house. You are all welcome in my house. Know up front that several people in my house have opinions that differ from yours and a good many are much smarter than you. If you can handle that, fine. If you can not abide this, or if you disrespect my other guests, I will not hesitate to show you the door."
I have the same basic attitude at my home. Rarely do I have to enforce the rules, but a gentle reminder never hurts.
Wow, that Matthews thread was...wow. But c'mon, surely you get a kick outta people telling you how to conduct YOUR blog? That's spit-on-your-neck, knee-you-in-the-groin HILARIOUS.