Fitzgerald: A tribute to Mahdi Bray, just a country Muslim from Norfolk, Virginia

Bow and smile, pick your pocket...bow and smile some more, pick your pocket again. You cant BS an old BSer. Bray would make a good lawyer or used car salesman. Bray, like many muslims has learned to lie without crossing any fingers or toes. They have learned the craft of word trickery. But old BSers on this site,( a term of endearment in this case), cant be BSed because knowledge overcame trickery. As knowledge spreads, trickery has to adapt and become more and more inventive. Eventually, the clever will run out of options and resort to violence. When Bray does his Allahic duty and gets himself killed in jihad, we will know he finally ran out of bullshit...But dont worry...Allah is merciful, compassionate and oft forgiving...those famous 72 are waiting...I wouldn't want to encourage Bray to do anything illegal, but it seems a crime to leave those virgins waiting...

Our ignorance about Islam is our secondary Achiles heel. The first is our moral confusion: that's why there are Western converts.

Are 72 virgins enough for eternity? That should barely last a lifetime. Islam is well suited for desert beggars that have to cover up their wives lest your throat be cut and your wife and property taken. After all, if my wife is not covered up, am I not provoking a community attack by offending community sensibilities? Mohammed brought peace to fellow Muslims. If you cover up your wife, then in that event a fellow community member has no right whatsoever, to kill you and rape and take her. Of course this rule does not apply outside the community.

Praise Mohammed this is a code of conduct he brought to civilize the Arabs. This is a good code of conduct for thieves and worse!

Supporting Abu-Ali and Al-Timimi? Bad enough! Then I read this: "He has also served as a liaison between President’s White House Faith-Based Initiative Program and congressional affairs on behalf of the Muslim community."

What will it take for people to realize what's happening? A "nuclear event"? These anarchists are in our midst and very charismatic (though I don't see it).

Meanwhile, our news stories are filled with runaway-bride and steroids-in-baseball stories.

The hissing of the cobra has a lot of people mesmerized. His speeches at Arabic speaking functions need to be exposed.
Here is an older article about him and the rest of the fifth column in our country.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=11209

Public amity.

Private enmity.

Burmashave! (No, that doesn't refer to beheadings in Burma, nor the islamic injunction to shave the "rear area". Though one is forced to wonder: would such hairs be removed with the left or right hand? Or would one use a razor?)

Ask the

Imam Geoff

I dont know about you guys but in my religion of Islam smiling is a charity and having good adab (manners) is good dawah.

David England,

"Are 72 virgins enough for eternity?"
Where do you get this 72 virgins bit, please provide your evidence.

"Islam is well suited for desert beggars that have to cover up their wives lest your throat be cut and your wife and property taken."

Prophet Muhammed (sallalu alayhi wa salam) said that the upper hand, (giving hand) was better than the lower hand (taking hand). And that an honest day of work is a form of ibadah (worship) not if you can prove otherwise please do so as it is a grave sin to speak about Islam with no knowledge or proof from the text.

The best of the female companions covered themselves and they were poius and modest and shy except whent it came to seeking knowledge about religion.

YOur throat slit or your wife taken will only happen if you make war on the Muslims or the Muslims make war on you. Whether you are killed in battle and the leader of the Muslim community either takes your wife and booty or sets her free for a ranson.

"If you cover up your wife, then in that event a fellow community member has no right whatsoever, to kill you and rape and take her. Of course this rule does not apply outside the community."

How illogical. Did not the Quran say that men and women should lower thier gaze, marrry early if they can,or fast and if caught alone together than shaytan is the third among them?

This article essentially demonstrates to me that the objective of Jihad Watch is basically to create an environment against Muslims that is essentially equal to the pre-Holocaust demonization of Jews...i.e giving us examples of "the Muslim"(just as Nazi's gave examples of "the Jew") using information that is deliberately twisted to portray "the example" in the worst possible light..

For example, consider this excerpt:

"In his last appearance in The Boston Globe, some months ago, he is seen in a photograph (he made sure there would be a Globe photographer handy) helping to lift a box of donated food for the poor, which we are naturally supposed to believe is disinterested Muslim charity, but zakat, of course, can only be given to Infidels for the sake of promoting Islam."

We are informed, with a complete lack of evidence, that his motives in helping the poor are false and solely for the sake of the media. This accusation, cleverly and maliciously presented as a factual account, does not but leave the reader with the impression that everything about "the Muslim" is false and that he is incapable of feeding the poor without some ulterior motive.

I hope that people will be able to see this tripe of an article for what it is. i.e: the attempted demonization of Muslims through the use of Nazi tactics.

David England,

"Are 72 virgins enough for eternity?"
Where do you get this 72 virgins bit, please provide your evidence.

"Islam is well suited for desert beggars that have to cover up their wives lest your throat be cut and your wife and property taken."

Prophet Muhammed (sallalu alayhi wa salam) said that the upper hand, (giving hand) was better than the lower hand (taking hand). And that an honest day of work is a form of ibadah (worship) not if you can prove otherwise please do so as it is a grave sin to speak about Islam with no knowledge or proof from the text.

The best of the female companions covered themselves and they were poius and modest and shy except whent it came to seeking knowledge about religion.

YOur throat slit or your wife taken will only happen if you make war on the Muslims or the Muslims make war on you. Whether you are killed in battle and the leader of the Muslim community either takes your wife as a slave or sets her free for a ranson.

"If you cover up your wife, then in that event a fellow community member has no right whatsoever, to kill you and rape and take her. Of course this rule does not apply outside the community."

How illogical. Did not the Quran say that men and women should lower thier gaze, marrry early if they can,or fast and if caught alone together than shaytan is the third among them?

Geoff,

You talk about ayats from the Quran and hadith more than I do, or at least you hint to them without any chain of narration. Thats not fair. Unvarifiable hadith doesnt make Islamic law so next time you pass fatawa please bring your proof.

Shukhri

It is stupid and mendacious in the extreme for a Muslim to claim victim hood by invoking 1930's German Jewry when the entire Islamic world is in the grip of a Nazi like hatred and bigotry against Jews. Deal with the facts. Dont use taqiyya. Dont disseminate. Be honest. Do you think you could be honest, just for once?

Oh great, the muslims are back again.

Yawn.

Mahdy Bray

Executive Director of the Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation, an offshoot of the Muslim American Society

President of the Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations

Advisory board member for numerous Muslim organizations

Has worked in concert with International ANSWER

In 1998, coordinated and led a Washington rally of 2,000 people, in which the activists chanted, "Let's all go into jihad, and throw stones at the face of the Jews."

Declared that he and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist fundraiser Sami al-Arian were "kindred spirits" on the issue of Muslim political activism

...........wonder what the Jews ever did to him?

The article is criticized by a Muslim poster for calling into question the well-publicized "donation" of a box of food. But why? Muslim websites preaching techniques of Da'wa and public relations routinely offer advice on when to give zakat to Infidels -- only when it "advances the cause of Islam." Does "Shukri" know of any examples of unfettered generosity on a mass scale (there may be individuals who are exceptions) by Muslim peoples or polities, given to Infidels without any request for any favors in turn, anywhere in the world, ever? The kind of aid that was unstintingly provided, for example, to the Muslims of Aceh by the Americans and Australians, or by the Israelis to the Turks during the Istanbul earthquake (and offered, but refused by the Iranians, after a similar quake in Bam), or by the various non-Muslim countries that came to the resuce of the Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. Should one describe the bottomless pit of foreign aid from non-Muslim states that happens to shore up every Muslim country or group that does not happen to have oil, including Egypt, Pakistan, and the "Palestinian" Authority? How many tens of billions, or hundreds of billions, in addition to the $10 trillion that has gone to the almost-entirely Muslim members of OPEC, have been transferred by non-Muslims to Muslims, in the hope that that will make their lives better -- and who knows, possibly they will be less violent, aggressive, and full of that sense of victimhood that is a direct result, in fact, of the failures that Islam itself, as a political, economic, social, and intellectual force causes, but can never be blamed by those who have "submitted" to it, lock, stock, and mental barrel.

Shukri really seems to thin that Mahdi Bray was simply snapped by a passing photographer. Nonsense: he called up, announced what was happening, and a complicit photographer came out to snap his picture as he bent, in his coat and snow-boots, to lift that box. It was all arranged. And you can find the claims as to how many thousands of pounds were "donated" by Muslims that would seem to be figures pulled from the air, unless there were many more boxes, and many more places where food was donated. But of course -- who bothers to check? Shukri can hardly be unaware that Muslim websites themselves explain various kinds of, by now quite systematically and programmatically followed kinds of Muslim P.R. There is the kindly Pakistani lady, a parent, who visits her child's class, or perhaps other classes as well, to do a show-and-tell on Ramadan ("family values" dontcha know?), with postcards of mosques, and possibly a prayer-rug, and all that stuff (not a word about Jihad, not a word about Asma bint Marwan, or Aisha, or the subjugation of Hindus or Zoroastrians, just a lot about the "three abrahamic faiths" and "we respect Jesus and Moses" etcetera etceterum). It's all set out. Infidels can read what is posted on those websites, or pick up the packets of information for Muslim propaganda, at mosques just as easily as can Muslims. Can't keep it hidden forever.

And one more thing. During the last one-third of a century, the OPEC oil states, 10 of the 11 being Muslim or Muslim-dominated, have received nearly $10 trillion dollars. That money was entirely unearned, and undeserved. Yet it was transferred from the oil-consuming to the oil-producing states. What have those states done with it? Have they contributed in the slightest to relieve the misery of Infidels anywhere? For that matter, have they contributed in the slightest to relieving the misery or impoverishment evenof fellow Muslims -- aside from funding arms, and paying money to families of suicide-bombers? The sole reason that Muslims, like the Saudi princeling who offered that check for $10 million which Giuliani, in disgust, rightly ripped up, ever make some kind of payment to an Infidel individual or institutiuon is to further the cause of Islam. There is no case in which Saudi money, so important in the funding of various by-now-phony "academic centers" in Durham, Exeter, and elsewhere, and to fund individual chairs in Islamic studies, has not required, as a quidproquo, the toeing of a certain religio-political line. The same is true with money from the U.A.E., Kuwait, and everyone else.

Infidels are naive. Infidels are ignorant. But naivete can be cured. Ignorance can be replaced by knowledge. They are not, all of them, hopelessly stupid, eternally ignorant, for ever naive. Some have begun to read the Islamic texts, go to Islamic websites, observe the kinds of by-now obvious propaganda campaigns that are waged. They are beginning to read history, even the daunting histories of dhimmitude by Bat Ye'or and the students of Jihad whose works, long overlooked, are now being reprinted and distributed.

There is a limit to how much nonsense people will swallow -- even if some of their political leaders continue to prate, or parrot, lines about Islam as a religion of "peace" and "tolerance." The day's Jihad-news, including the treatment of non-Muslims all over the Muslim world, just keeps piling up and piling up. It is having its effect.

The article is criticized by a Muslim poster for calling into question the well-publicized "donation" of a box of food. But why? Muslim websites preaching techniques of Da'wa and public relations routinely offer advice on when to give zakat to Infidels -- only when it "advances the cause of Islam." Does "Shukri" know of any examples of unfettered generosity on a mass scale (there may be individuals who are exceptions) by Muslim peoples or polities, given to Infidels without any request for any favors in turn, anywhere in the world, ever? The kind of aid that was unstintingly provided, for example, to the Muslims of Aceh by the Americans and Australians, or by the Israelis to the Turks during the Istanbul earthquake (and offered, but refused by the Iranians, after a similar quake in Bam), or by the various non-Muslim countries that came to the resuce of the Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. Should one describe the bottomless pit of foreign aid from non-Muslim states that happens to shore up every Muslim country or group that does not happen to have oil, including Egypt, Pakistan, and the "Palestinian" Authority? How many tens of billions, or hundreds of billions, in addition to the $10 trillion that has gone to the almost-entirely Muslim members of OPEC, have been transferred by non-Muslims to Muslims, in the hope that that will make their lives better -- and who knows, possibly they will be less violent, aggressive, and full of that sense of victimhood that is a direct result, in fact, of the failures that Islam itself, as a political, economic, social, and intellectual force causes, but can never be blamed by those who have "submitted" to it, lock, stock, and mental barrel.

Shukri really seems to thin that Mahdi Bray was simply snapped by a passing photographer. Nonsense: he called up, announced what was happening, and a complicit photographer came out to snap his picture as he bent, in his coat and snow-boots, to lift that box. It was all arranged. And you can find the claims as to how many thousands of pounds were "donated" by Muslims that would seem to be figures pulled from the air, unless there were many more boxes, and many more places where food was donated. But of course -- who bothers to check? Shukri can hardly be unaware that Muslim websites themselves explain various kinds of, by now quite systematically and programmatically followed kinds of Muslim P.R. There is the kindly Pakistani lady, a parent, who visits her child's class, or perhaps other classes as well, to do a show-and-tell on Ramadan ("family values" dontcha know?), with postcards of mosques, and possibly a prayer-rug, and all that stuff (not a word about Jihad, not a word about Asma bint Marwan, or Aisha, or the subjugation of Hindus or Zoroastrians, just a lot about the "three abrahamic faiths" and "we respect Jesus and Moses" etcetera etceterum). It's all set out. Infidels can read what is posted on those websites, or pick up the packets of information for Muslim propaganda, at mosques just as easily as can Muslims. Can't keep it hidden forever.

And one more thing. During the last one-third of a century, the OPEC oil states, 10 of the 11 being Muslim or Muslim-dominated, have received nearly $10 trillion dollars. That money was entirely unearned, and undeserved. Yet it was transferred from the oil-consuming to the oil-producing states. What have those states done with it? Have they contributed in the slightest to relieve the misery of Infidels anywhere? For that matter, have they contributed in the slightest to relieving the misery or impoverishment evenof fellow Muslims -- aside from funding arms, and paying money to families of suicide-bombers? The sole reason that Muslims, like the Saudi princeling who offered that check for $10 million which Giuliani, in disgust, rightly ripped up, ever make some kind of payment to an Infidel individual or institutiuon is to further the cause of Islam. There is no case in which Saudi money, so important in the funding of various by-now-phony "academic centers" in Durham, Exeter, and elsewhere, and to fund individual chairs in Islamic studies, has not required, as a quidproquo, the toeing of a certain religio-political line. The same is true with money from the U.A.E., Kuwait, and everyone else.

Infidels are naive. Infidels are ignorant. But naivete can be cured. Ignorance can be replaced by knowledge. They are not, all of them, hopelessly stupid, eternally ignorant, for ever naive. Some have begun to read the Islamic texts, go to Islamic websites, observe the kinds of by-now obvious propaganda campaigns that are waged. They are beginning to read history, even the daunting histories of dhimmitude by Bat Ye'or and the students of Jihad whose works, long overlooked, are now being reprinted and distributed.

There is a limit to how much nonsense people will swallow -- even if some of their political leaders continue to prate, or parrot, lines about Islam as a religion of "peace" and "tolerance." The day's Jihad-news, including the treatment of non-Muslims all over the Muslim world, just keeps piling up and piling up. It is having its effect.

The article is criticized by a Muslim poster for calling into question the well-publicized "donation" of a box of food. But why? Muslim websites preaching techniques of Da'wa and public relations routinely offer advice on when to give zakat to Infidels -- only when it "advances the cause of Islam." Does "Shukri" know of any examples of unfettered generosity on a mass scale (there may be individuals who are exceptions) by Muslim peoples or polities, given to Infidels without any request for any favors in turn, anywhere in the world, ever? The kind of aid that was unstintingly provided, for example, to the Muslims of Aceh by the Americans and Australians, or by the Israelis to the Turks during the Istanbul earthquake (and offered, but refused by the Iranians, after a similar quake in Bam), or by the various non-Muslim countries that came to the resuce of the Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. Should one describe the bottomless pit of foreign aid from non-Muslim states that happens to shore up every Muslim country or group that does not happen to have oil, including Egypt, Pakistan, and the "Palestinian" Authority? How many tens of billions, or hundreds of billions, in addition to the $10 trillion that has gone to the almost-entirely Muslim members of OPEC, have been transferred by non-Muslims to Muslims, in the hope that that will make their lives better -- and who knows, possibly they will be less violent, aggressive, and full of that sense of victimhood that is a direct result, in fact, of the failures that Islam itself, as a political, economic, social, and intellectual force causes, but can never be blamed by those who have "submitted" to it, lock, stock, and mental barrel.

Shukri really seems to thin that Mahdi Bray was simply snapped by a passing photographer. Nonsense: he called up, announced what was happening, and a complicit photographer came out to snap his picture as he bent, in his coat and snow-boots, to lift that box. It was all arranged. And you can find the claims as to how many thousands of pounds were "donated" by Muslims that would seem to be figures pulled from the air, unless there were many more boxes, and many more places where food was donated. But of course -- who bothers to check? Shukri can hardly be unaware that Muslim websites themselves explain various kinds of, by now quite systematically and programmatically followed kinds of Muslim P.R. There is the kindly Pakistani lady, a parent, who visits her child's class, or perhaps other classes as well, to do a show-and-tell on Ramadan ("family values" dontcha know?), with postcards of mosques, and possibly a prayer-rug, and all that stuff (not a word about Jihad, not a word about Asma bint Marwan, or Aisha, or the subjugation of Hindus or Zoroastrians, just a lot about the "three abrahamic faiths" and "we respect Jesus and Moses" etcetera etceterum). It's all set out. Infidels can read what is posted on those websites, or pick up the packets of information for Muslim propaganda, at mosques just as easily as can Muslims. Can't keep it hidden forever.

And one more thing. During the last one-third of a century, the OPEC oil states, 10 of the 11 being Muslim or Muslim-dominated, have received nearly $10 trillion dollars. That money was entirely unearned, and undeserved. Yet it was transferred from the oil-consuming to the oil-producing states. What have those states done with it? Have they contributed in the slightest to relieve the misery of Infidels anywhere? For that matter, have they contributed in the slightest to relieving the misery or impoverishment evenof fellow Muslims -- aside from funding arms, and paying money to families of suicide-bombers? The sole reason that Muslims, like the Saudi princeling who offered that check for $10 million which Giuliani, in disgust, rightly ripped up, ever make some kind of payment to an Infidel individual or institutiuon is to further the cause of Islam. There is no case in which Saudi money, so important in the funding of various by-now-phony "academic centers" in Durham, Exeter, and elsewhere, and to fund individual chairs in Islamic studies, has not required, as a quidproquo, the toeing of a certain religio-political line. The same is true with money from the U.A.E., Kuwait, and everyone else.

Infidels are naive. Infidels are ignorant. But naivete can be cured. Ignorance can be replaced by knowledge. They are not, all of them, hopelessly stupid, eternally ignorant, for ever naive. Some have begun to read the Islamic texts, go to Islamic websites, observe the kinds of by-now obvious propaganda campaigns that are waged. They are beginning to read history, even the daunting histories of dhimmitude by Bat Ye'or and the students of Jihad whose works, long overlooked, are now being reprinted and distributed.

There is a limit to how much nonsense people will swallow -- even if some of their political leaders continue to prate, or parrot, lines about Islam as a religion of "peace" and "tolerance." The day's Jihad-news, including the treatment of non-Muslims all over the Muslim world, just keeps piling up and piling up. It is having its effect.

Zico,

I am relatively new Muslim, what is Taqqiyah, when you explain please give me proofs from the Islamic texts, it just wont feel right if I just take your word for it.

"You talk about ayats from the Quran and hadith more than I do, or at least you hint to them without any chain of narration. Thats not fair. Unvarifiable hadith doesnt make Islamic law so next time you pass fatawa please bring your proof."
-- from a Muslim poster to Geoff, above

Good God, Geoff, now you are being asked to spend your time looking through the various isnad chains, which would drive any sane person mad. Every time you mention a hadith, apparently, you are now being asked to report the entire Isnad chain, and to act like the muhaddithin, reporting that you that Ibn so-and-so said to so-and-so, who possibly said to so-and-so, who quite clearly said to so-and-so, who mebbe said to so-and-so, who might have said to the brother-in-law of Senor Fulano de Tal (oops, sorry, no can do, isnad chain broken -- no non-
Arabic names allowed, not even from wonderful Islamic Spain), and on and on and on. That's what helps rot Muslim brains -- may they keep at those isnad-chains forever.

Why not just ask the complainer in question if when the Hadith you adduce, judged to be "authentic" by al-Bukhari or Muslim, would therefore be good enough for her? Surely she respects al-Bukhari and Muslim. Doesn't she?

"Beth,

I caution you that about quoting the Quran without knowledge."

That was such a cute little threat browndowner. Exactly what danger are you cautioning Beth about?

Oh, she also wants to know what "taqiyyah" is. Tell her to google the word. And if she wants texts demonstrating the adoption of this religiously-sanctioned doctrie of dissimulation (i.e. lying) about the faith, she can google back into the Jihadwatch archives. She desribes herself as a "new Muslim." One really ought to investigate the whole thing just a bit more, before taking the plunge. One would not buy a house, or a car, or possibly even a toaster, without doing a bit of research. Surely one's immortal soul, not to mention the freedom to change one's mind (it gets a bit tricky if you decide you don't want to stay a Muslim any longer). Why are people so careless when they become Muslims? Of course, there is nothing that requires them to learn anything; they need only recite a single phrase. Then they are in like Flynn. And then the fun, or the realization of the total absence of fun, begins.

Didn't some of the Muslims side with the Nazis during WWII?

Anyway, it would be very interesting to see a videotape of Mahdi Bray first talking to infidels and then talking to Muslims. Compare and contrast the message presented in both sessions. Is it the same/similar or totally different? hmm...

Infidels are naive. Infidels are ignorant. But naivete can be cured. Ignorance can be replaced by knowledge. They are not, all of them, hopelessly stupid, eternally ignorant, for ever naive. Some have begun to read the Islamic texts, go to Islamic websites, observe the kinds of by-now obvious propaganda campaigns that are waged. They are beginning to read history, even the daunting histories of dhimmitude by Bat Ye'or and the students of Jihad whose works, long overlooked, are now being reprinted and distributed.

You better believe that there is a cadre of infidels that are rapidly losing both their naiveté and their ignorance!! As the saying goes, "Damn straight!"

epg:

Yep. Infidels are learning. I recently found a political web site, the majority of whose members know the truth about Islam.

They are not happy with Islam to put it mildly.

Truth and knowledge about real Islam is spreading like wildfire.

Truth and knowledge about real Islam *are* spreading like wildfire. PIMF!

Butterfly,

I caution Beth is Islam if you speak without knowledge is very dangerous.

According to a great scholar of the past, I believe a relative of the Prophet (sallalahu alayhi wa salam) Ibn Abbas he narrates a hadith in which the Prophet (sallalahu alayhi wa salam) said, "Whoever explains the Quran with his opinion or with what he had no knowledge of, then let him assume his seat in the Fire."

From the above we can see that it is wrong and deceitful to just quote Quran with no knowledge or anything. Besides Muslims dont carry out hadd-punishment, actually the Qadi- judge does, one who is steeped in knowledge of Islamic law, wether it be stoning, amputation etc, unless it is grounded in Islamic law from the Quran and the sunnah. there is no Mob rule in Islam.

I dont issue threats, because I am not in a position, nor to I have the right according to Islamic law, to carry out punishments. I dont know enough about Islamic law to do so. I have not been appointed by anyone.

Hugh,

I didnt exactly what you asked and it just kept refering to the same ayat in the Quran,

3.28 and said the Shia used it as a way to deal with being in a majority Sunnis environment. And another ayat, 16:106 "Whoever disbelieved in Allah after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a great torment."

If you have better sites that would be helpful thanks. I would have to ask the scholars about it.

Here is from this site :http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/taqiyyah/en/index.php

A hadith, "…. And `Abd ibn Hamid has narrated from al-Hasan (al-Basri) that he said: `Taqiyah is lawful upto the day of resurrection. And `Abd (ibn Hamid) has narrated from Abu Raja' that he was reciting, `illa an tattaqu minhum taqiyatan'; and `Abd ibn Hamid has narrated from Qatadah that he was reciting (likewise) .... taqiyatan with ya"....And Hassan (Basri) said: `Taqiyah is upto the Day of Resurrection .... And the Prophet (s.a:w.) said: `Deed are according to intention.

Doesnt explain it though. It does tell if from a shia perspective.

Here is an explanation from Shaikul Islam ibn Taymyah, probably one of the most knowledeable of all the modern scholars, after the 3 generations of the Prophet:

Ibn Taymiyyah's commentary on verse [3:28]

Let's see the verse once again:

لاَّ يَتَّخِذِ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْكَافِرِينَ أَوْلِيَاء مِن دُوْنِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللّهِ فِي شَيْءٍ إِلاَّ أَن تَتَّقُواْ مِنْهُمْ تُقَاةً وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللّهُ نَفْسَهُ وَإِلَى اللّهِ الْمَصِيرُ

[Yusufali 3:28] Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

Here is the commentary by Ibn Taymiyyah:

The verse (3:28) is not only an exception but also a restricted exception. Not only is it forbidden to be used against Muslims but it also does not give permission to lie to others. What it means is that if you oppose certain behaviours and you are in a situation where condemnation would endanger Islam or Muslim community you can keep silent but you must avoid Iying.
1. Ibn Taymiyah, Minhaj, Vol. 1 p. 213
2. Ibn Kathir, Tafseer of verse 3:28
And it goes on and on. There is probably the only site I have seen with some info on it but again, I am still not getting it, especially the way you all describe it.

"Whether you are killed in battle and the leader of the Muslim community either takes your wife and booty or sets her free for a ranson."

Good to see our Muslims approving of wife stealing to raise money for Jihad, or as "booty". And women have what rights again? Oh silly me - thats right, to have their brains bonked out of them, beaten into submission by their "new husbands" or sold off for a price. Where are all the rabid feminists????

"Whoever explains the Quran with his opinion or with what he had no knowledge of, then let him assume his seat in the Fire."

In other words, the Koran (unlike the Bible) cannot be read at face value. In other words, Allah not only needed a pedophile prophet to interpret for him, but also needs an endless supply of clerics. Not much of a god Allah is (may pigs piss be upon him)

No wonder Islamic countries are backwards

Like somebody said before at JW - why do you Muslims keep on harping about the being treated like the Jews were during the Nazi Holocaust? According to many Muslims (including the current PLO leader who did his thesis on how the Holocaust didn't really happen) it never happened?

So what the hell are you complaining about? Obviously, like the holocaust(not), it is all pure fantasy. Much like Islam really..

And yes - one could have a strong argument that the majority of Muslims were allies with the Peace loving man Aldof (I won't say I'm against Nazi's - as my Muslim friends will, using their logic, label me a racist - oh no!)In fact Yasser Arafat (the Egyptian born "Palestinian" - who's parents fled Israel, because of an aggresive Arab war waged against Israel) - his mentor - the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was Hitlers confidant in the Middle East during WW2. He used to get rather touchy about it when western (female - an Australian) journalist quizzed him on it.

LOUIE LOUIE LOUOOOO

THE 2ND AMENDMENT

AMERICA'S ORIGINAL HOMELAND SECURITY!!

SAVE THE WHITE RASIANS THE MULSUMS THINK THEY CAN HAVE THEM ALL!!

AS FOR BETH AND HER THINKING MULSUMS CAN'T FIGHT OTHER MULSUMS WELL WHAT ABOUT THE MULSUMS KILLING MULSUMS IN SUDAN IRAQ AND ALL OVER THE WORLD??

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/d-d.natanson/devenus.htm
Ce qu'ils sont devenus :
le sort de 1.014 criminels nazis et de quelques complices
The destiny of 1014 nazi criminals and accomplices

Qur’an 114:1 “Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of men and jinn [demons], the King of men and jinn, the Ilah (God) of men and jinn.”

OH MY!!

Qur’an 113:3 “From the mischievous evil of Darkness as it becomes intensely dark, and from the mischief of those who practice the evil of malignant witchcraft and blowing on knots, and from the mischievous evil of the envier when he covets.”

OH MY WHAT COULD THIS MEAN??

Bukhari:V6B61N535 “Whenever the Prophet became ill he used to blow his breath over his body hoping for its blessing.”

SO HE WORSHIPED EVIL??

Tabari VI:107 “Satan Cast a False Qur’an Revelation on the Messenger of Allah’s Tongue.”

OHHH HOW CAN THIS BE??

Ishaq:569 “When the Muslims fled, the uncouth and rude fellows from Mecca who were with us saw that we were in total disarray. Some of them spoke in a manner that disclosed the hatred they harbored against us. Abu Sufyan [the Meccan chief turned Muslim warrior] had divining arrows with him but another Muslim said, ‘Sorcery is useless today.’ Sufyan replied, ‘Shut up! May Allah smash your mouth!’”

SO THIS SAYS MECCA WAS NOT A MULSUM LAND BUT WAS CONCURED BY THEM?? AND THEY WORSHIPED SORCERY???

Qur’an 6:66 “The people reject this (Book) and call it a lie though it is the truth. Say: ‘I am not a warden over you.’ ...When you see men who meddle with Our Revelations, turn away, withdrawing from them. Satan makes you forget.”

NOW MANY CHRISTIANS BELIEVE 666 IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST COULD THIS BE THAT IT IS THE MULSUMS WHO CARRY THIS MARK??????

Bukhari:V4B54N516 “The Prophet said, ‘If anyone rouses from sleep and performs ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blow it out thrice because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.’”

WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT BLOWIN??

Bukhari:V4B54N509 “The Prophet said, ‘Yawning is from Satan and if anyone of you yawns, he should check his yawning as much as possible, for if anyone of you during the act of yawning should say: “Ha,” Satan will laugh at him.’”

BOY THATS NEWS TO ME!!

Bukhari:V2B21N245 “A person slept in and missed the morning prayer. So the Prophet said, ‘Satan urinated in his ears.’”

GUY MUST HAVE HIT HIS SNOOZE ALARM??

Ishaq:166 “Then Allah annulled what Satan had cast, and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers. Every Messenger or Prophet before you recited the message Satan cast into his recitation. Allah abrogates what Satan casts. Then Allah established his verses.’”

SO MO-HAM-OD SPOKE TO SATAN AND THAT MAKES SINCE TO ME SEEING TODAY WHAT HIS FOLLERS ARE DOING PUTTING PEOPLE INTO SLAVORY AND ALL THE STEALING AND KILLING ?? OH MY!!

Ishaq:166 “‘You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from Allah, and you have said that which He did not say to you.’ The Messenger was grieved and feared Allah greatly. So Allah sent a revelation to him, consoling him and making light of the affair [of worldly bargains and Satanic indulgences]. He informed him that there had never been a prophet or messenger before who desired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had interjected them on Muhammad’s tongue and into his desires.”

HOW CAN THIS BE SO EVEN THE MULSUMS KNOW THAT MO-HAM-OD FOLLOWED SATAN BUT STILL TRY TO SAY IT IS THE SAY god NOT GOOD!!

Muslim:C14B39N6757 “Allah’s Messenger said: ‘There is none amongst you with whom is not an attaché from amongst the jinn, a devil.’ The Companions said: ‘Allah’s Messenger, is there a devil with you too?’ Thereupon he said: ‘Yes, but Allah helps me against him so I am safe from his hand and he does not command me but for good.’”

CUTTING PEOPLES HEADS OFF STEALING LIEING NO THIS IS NOT GOOD THE MULSUMS HAD BETTER WAKE UP AND STOP BEING LEAD BY MEN WHO FOLLOW SATAN

Qur’an 2:64 “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.”

OH SO THIS IS WHERE THIS COMES FROM?? SO YOU LIE WHEN YOU DENIE IT IS PART OF YOUR BELIEF??

Qur’an 60:5 “We reject you. Hostility and hate have come between us forever, unless you believe in Allah only.’”

IS THIS WHAT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST USE LOOKS LIKE THOSE WHO SAY WE CAN GET ALONG ARE LIEING ON THE MULSUM SIDE TO ME

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”

OH MY NOT A WAY TO GET ALONG WITH OTHERS!!

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

NOW THIS BETH SAYS TO KILL OTHER MULSUMS

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

OH MY!

Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

NOT A GOOD THING FOOL ME ONCE SHAME ON YOU FOOL ME TWICE SHAME ON ME??

Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”

WHAT WAS IT YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT KILLING WOMEN??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT GIVE THE WORLD COURAGE TO STAND UP AND FIGHT THIS EVIL AMEN

Qur’an 4:171 “O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion; nor speak lies of Allah. The Messiah, Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease and Desist: (it is) better for you: for Allah is one Ilah (God). (Far it is removed from him of) having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. The Messiah is proud to be a slave of Allah, as are the angels, those nearest. Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant. He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer)…. He will punish with a painful doom; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or save them.”
Qur’an 5:77 “Say (Muhammad): ‘People of the Book, do not overstep the bounds in your religion, or follow the people who erred and led many astray. Cursed are the unbelievers among the Children of Israel by David and Jesus.... They do vile things, allying themselves with the infidels so that Allah’s indignation is upon them and in torment they will suffer for all eternity.” [Another translation reads:] “Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.”
NOW ASK YOURSELF WHAT THE CAIR TELL THE PRESS AND MOST PEOPLE WE HAVE RESPECT FOR THE CHRISTIANS WE BELIEVE IN JESUS TOO???
YEA THEY BELIVE HE WAS EVIL AND YOU ARE TO WORSHIP HIM ARE A PAGAN??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
PS
Answer is Arm yourself and buy lot's of ammo and learn to shoot and know who your neighbors are and who your neighbors who are armed are and remember all ammo does not fit all guns??

"there is no Mob rule in Islam."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Liar.

That's what islam is, mohammed's mob.

islam=cult

Brownfinger (and Number 2, and assorted henchmen):
"Where do you get this 72 virgins bit, please provide your evidence."

Surat 44 (Ad-Dukhtan) 54 So (it will be), and We shall marry them to Houris[] (female fair ones) with wide, lovely eyes.

Surat 55 (Ar-Rahman) 56: Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them.

Surat 56 (Al-Waqiah):
22. And (there will be) Houris (fair females) with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious)
23. Like unto preserved pearls.
24. A reward for what they used to do.
…
35. Verily, We have created them (maidens) of special creation.
36. And made them virgins.
37. Loving (their husbands only), equal in age.
38. For those on the Right Hand.

Unless they’re not actually women? I admit, it doesn’t say “women”, but then again, I’ve never heard anyone call a sheep a “maiden”. The number of virgins – all female, I might add – could be variable. But no male virgins for Brownfinger? Hardly fair – but then, Allah is not “fair”, nor just.

“it is a grave sin to speak about Islam with no knowledge or proof from the text.”

I agree. Brownfinger, stop speaking about islam without proofs – you must give the proofs. With full isnads. Even if al-Buhkari already accepted them; because, of course, he didn’t know what he was doing, really.

“The best of the female companions covered themselves and they were poius and modest and shy except whent it came to seeking knowledge about religion.”

And all women everywhere should behave like this – why? Without their consent? Heh heh, I doubt it. How does covering oneself make one pious? You will now bring the ayah in which this is stated and explain them unequivocally.

“YOur throat slit or your wife taken will only happen if you make war on the Muslims or the Muslims make war on you. Whether you are killed in battle and the leader of the Muslim community either takes your wife as a slave or sets her free for a ranson.”

Ah. So the innocent must suffer for the “crimes” of the guilty. So if an islamic country starts a war (read: “or the Muslims make war on you” – thanks, Brownfinger) with a non-islamic one, the families and non-combatants of the non-muslim nation may also be tortured and harassed.

It postively makes one wonder what the complaints of Abu-Ghraib were all about. Even if the absolute worst of the rumours spawned by insurrectionists were true, wouldn’t this be in keeping with islamic custom? Well, of course, it would.

“You talk about ayats from the Quran and hadith more than I do”

I do? I must be an imam then, or at least a sheik. I thank you.

“or at least you hint to them without any chain of narration. Thats not fair. Unvarifiable hadith doesnt make Islamic law so next time you pass fatawa please bring your proof.”

Regrets, but the repression of minorities in islam makes more than enough islamic law, from what we can tell. Similarly the punishment of apostacy. That’s not fair either. Please indicate which ayah I have quoted that require isnad – as a sheik, I have never heard of requiring isnad for ayah, only hadith. I could pass wind for them, frankly, let alone fatwa.

And Allah knows least.

Sheik Geoff
Lion of Man

"I am relatively new Muslim..."

The ripeness of fanaticism endears the recently converted ignoramus.

Uh Brownie,

No one here is interested in the 'beauty' of Islam, pudding proofs not withstanding. You're a mess.

From the Frontpage article I linked to earlier:

Mahdi Bray, executive director, Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation.60 Bray, a former member of the radical Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), is a leader of several pro-Islamist organizations in this country. His role typically is that of a coordinator for political activism. By mid-October of this year, Bray had overseen the training of nearly 1,000 Islamic activists.61 Bray also served as the political director of another pro-Islamist group based in Los Angeles, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, and as a founding board member of the National Coalition to Protect Political Freedom.62 He hosts a radio talk-show sponsored largely by – and reflecting the views of – Wahhabi Saudi Arabia.
-----------
He belonged to the SDS, sounds like he has had a need to rebel against our country since he was a pup. He's found the perfect belief to be against all things American.

Geoff,

I asked you about the 72 virgins, We all know the Muslims will have mates in paradise.

Here is a site that will help you with your navagation through the Quran and Hadith, Sahih Bukhari and Muslim only, the other books of hadith I dont suggest you read because some contain strong and weak hadith and you can, nor can I determine which is which. http://salaf.com/

Buttefly,

As I have said before there is no mob rule in Islam. You are accused of a crime you have to be brought before the Qadi and the proof must be brought against you.

"We all know the Muslims will have mates in paradise."

An all encompassing being with total control over his creation and his creations promises sensuality in that creator's "paradise"?

This is typical of Muhammad's view. His was a sensual life emboldened by slave women, booty and ingratiating servants who fawned over his every false move.

Mates are not likely if one considers the creator to be a spiritual being.

24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Catherine, I like white raisins, too.

Bray's SDS background says it all. He's a purely destructive person and the country would be better off if he were deported to North Korea.

3dtimelucky: You ask where the rabid feminists are? One I knew recently said we might have to give up a few liberties in order to accommodate Muslim sensitivities. Hence, I think they're as big a part of the problem as the Islamofascists themselves.

"As I have said before there is no mob rule in Islam."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002936.php

Liar.

Brownwonder, if nobody can determine which hadith is authentic and which is not, why in the name of allah doesn't somebody separate the weak from the weaker? I mean, wouldn't it be lovely to know what to believe and what to ignore?! How stupid do you think we are?!!

Has it ever occurred to you that Islam is a pile of horseshit? You call yourself a muslim and you know less about Islam than we do, or you're baiting us so you can attempt to refute everything we say. Give it up; it won't work. Don't tell us that we are making statements of opinion. I get much of my genuine, authentic, straight-from-the-horse's-mouth Islamic crap from "ask the Imam." But I guess he doesn't understand Islam either. Tell me, just who in the hell does understand it? I can read the unholy Qur'an as well as anyone, and I can easily comprehend its evil, Satanic message. You are not special, superior, a member of an elite club, you are an idiot for believing the nonsense and heresy that is Islam. Go defend your death cult somewhere else; you are making me sick.

I'll tell you who understands Islam, people like Osama bin Laden and the other demonic terrorists who are blowing up innocent people, destroying property, wreaking havoc worldwide. The shahids who are dying to die for the god of blood and death, allah, and in the process of their depraved, sick, psychotic yen for martyrdom, killing scores of innocent victims. Murderers, butchers, demons---Islam's finest. Not only are most of you the most arrogant, ignorant, and indoctrinated fools, you are inveterate liars and masters of deception.

Go back through the archives of Jihadwatch. There is nothing you can say that will change our minds about Islam. Your little "dumb" act is quite amusing, but a common muslim tactic to confuse the infidels. We're quite familiar with it. Goodbye and good riddance.

Susan,

"Brownwonder, if nobody can determine which hadith is authentic and which is not, why in the name of allah doesn't somebody separate the weak from the weaker?"

Do you know what Sahih means? It means authentic, do you know why books of hadith by Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim are considered and named Sahih, because they did just that. Its books like At Tirmidi, The Sunan of Abu dawud, and other books of hadith that contain in them some sound hadith and not sound. Now Shaik Muhammed Nasiruldeen Al Albani from Albania he was a muhadith past away in the mid 90s, a person of hadith and he took it upon himself, being the great scholar that he was and judged between hadith that were not clear.

Susan it is Allah Azzawajal who guides and misguides. You can say what you will about Islam. It you knew that much I wouldnt have had to explain the above to you. Now I believe I gave you a list of scholars who, "I get much of my genuine, authentic, straight-from-the-horse's-mouth Islamic crap from "ask the Imam." have studied the text wether tedious or not. Robert Spencer isnt a scholar, Bay Yeor isnt a scholar, the above people I have mentioned have memorized more genuince, authentic Islamic sources than you even know exist. How many books did Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahhab write? How many books did Ibn Taymiyyah write? How many books of the scholars of the four "schools of thought" write? I am talking about walking libraries here and you read some english translation of the Quran and now you know something? Stupid white girl.

Butterfly,

Do you know what Mob rule is?

Susan,

I am sorry that the infidel is easily confused. Sometimes when I read books about Islam, I get very very confused. Being a non-arabic speaker and having most of the scholars doing thier work in Arabic, it is hard to find a good translation of books, but those that have been translated are too technical.

If I have question, I can ask the Imam at my masjid, who is gracious enough to take time away from his families many times a week to teach the community about principles in Islam.

I have tasted, InshaAllah, the sweetness of Iman - faith, and so I am not arrogant, and when I dont know I just dont know. I have no problems referring you to websites of the scholars, past and present. Scholars who have spent thier whole lives doveoted to Islam, and these guys are in their 60s, 70s, 80s. I cant imagine how much time they spent away from thier families just teaching people. May Allah Azzawajal grant them the highest levels of Jennah.

Anyway, since you really dont know that much about Islam, be patient. If you are really interested in learning, you should probably learn arabic first so you can appreicate, I suppose the nuance of the language.

Even the Coptic who taught me the arabic told us that it would take years to be able to read the Quran in arabic.

Do you actually think you know all that much about the bible just by reading it?

I think we are forgetting the first rule of dealing with the brainwashed Muslims that come to this site and act like angry, illogical, out of control toddlers, (Adults that act like this are called sociopaths).

Sane folks do not dialog with insanity. We do not enter into intellectual battles with people whose brainwashing makes certain that have no room for logic, morals or ethics in dealing with anyone that is not Muslim.

These people lie, steal, cheat, kill, and do it all in the name of a "god" for crying out loud! There is no low too low, no trick too dirty, and no lie too great to tell to non-Muslims to achieve their goal. Muslim posts will speak all that anyone needs to know about the poster.

The problem they really have with sites like JW is realizing the fact that the "cat is out of the bag" so, we cannot be deluded about Islam. We know what they are taught and why they are taught that.

They will never deal fairly with opponents of Islam. The will attempt to silence us anyway they can. The Internet must be very frustrating for them, since there is no way to strike off our heads...Oh well...

Browniebomber:

There is NO Islamic law that anyone here would prefer over our courts. Our courts may not be perfect, but they are far superior to anything Islamic!

Personally I am very much in favor of Islamic punishment, but only applied for Mohammedans like yourself, not for infidels. In Islamic hellholes around the world there is no law and no justice, & nobody here buys your phantasy-tales from 1001 night.

You are a crackerbox obsessed with Mohammeds crap & many inferior-complexes: Nobody here wants more Islam, we want NONE of it!

Susanp showed you the red card already, so piss off & good riddance!

In answer to the inquiry above from a New Muslim ("brownwonder") about more on Taqiyya, go to this link:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=178

Or, you can also also google "Taqiyya" and "Robert Spencer" and "jihadwatch" to come up with a thread where various posters discuss this doctrine of religiously-sanctioned dissimulation.

Reading the articles at www.faithfreedom.org, a website run by Ali Sina, an ex-Muslim, may help enlighten you. And if you are a recent convert (or "revert") to Islam, and are starting to wonder what you have gotten into -- unfortunately by the time one has already signed up, without fully investigating the nature of Islam, it can be too late. Religions that require converts to actually study, and prepare, for conversion -- so you are fully informed of what it is you are getting into -- do it right. And if you take a belief-system out for a test-drive, and it does not agree with you, you can always return it. Not so with Islam. Quite a few people are inveigled into it, and only later on find out what the whole thing is about. But when they try to leave, they may be informed that they would be well-advised not to announce it to anyone.

You might also find of interest the book "Leaving Islam" edited by Ibn Warraq, that offers the testimony of many ex-Muslims, some born into Islam, others having converted to it without sufficient study of the matter, chose to leave it.

Sometimes I feel like Miss Lonelyhearts.

"Stupid white girl.

Posted by: brownwonder"

Your racism is showing! Are you aware that old mo was white?
Read Bukhari Volume I #367
" "I #63
" " II #141
" " IV #744

. Robert Spencer isnt a scholar, Bay Yeor isnt a scholar, the above people I have mentioned have memorized more genuince, authentic Islamic sources than you even know exist. How many books did Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahhab write? How many books did Ibn Taymiyyah write? How many books of the scholars of the four "schools of thought" write? I am talking about walking libraries here and you read some english translation of the Quran and now you know something? Stupid white girl.

Posted by: brownwonder

I thought you were "new to islam" Oh, I guess that was a LIE, wasn't it?

By the way, I've read "The Runaway Bunny" does that make me a scholar, does that make me know then secrets of the universe? You and your "Johnny come-lately" religion deserve each other.

"Anyway, since you really dont know that much about Islam, be patient. If you are really interested in learning, you should probably learn arabic first so you can appreicate, I suppose the nuance of the language."

Read Ibn Warraq's "What the Koran Really Says" concerning the idea that only Arabic is the only acceptable way to understand the koran. BS!

Geoff,

I asked you about the 72 virgins, We all know the Muslims will have mates in paradise.

Here is a site that will help you with your navagation through the Quran and Hadith

Geoff? Be your own navigator!

Here: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html {This is a search engine for '''The Noble Koran'''

It includes 3 different English translations.

They will never deal fairly with opponents of Islam. The will attempt to silence us anyway they can. The Internet must be very frustrating for them, since there is no way to strike off our heads...Oh well...

Woe --- GOOD ONE! Susan

And it is VERY True! that they don't want non-Muslims to know the real 'allah'

It's hard to be proud of him

he creates murderers:

Mat 12:33 the tree is known by his fruit.

"Robert Spencer isnt a scholar, Bay Yeor isnt a scholar, the above people I have mentioned have memorized more genuince, authentic Islamic sources than you even know exist. How many books did Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahhab write? How many books did Ibn Taymiyyah write? How many books of the scholars of the four "schools of thought" write? I am talking about walking libraries here and you read some english translation of the Quran and now you know something? Stupid white girl"

Brownwonder? This stupid white girl would like to ask you about a few things. ok?

Tell me - what are these saying to you? I'm sure you'll recognize them - from '''The Noble Qu'ran'''

004.101 When ye travel through the earth , there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

004.092 Never should a believer kill a believer

009.004 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term.

009.005 But when the forbidden months are past [when the 'treaties' expire} then fight and slay the Pagans ''''wherever'''' ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.

008.067 It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war [slay them] until he hath thoroughly subdued the land.

Carolyn,

The Quran is an arabic, anyone who thinks that they will be able to excell in studying the Quran and not learn, classical arabic, than they are getting themselves. The arabic that is spoken in most arabs countries isnt even the arabic of the Quran. Anyone who writes about the Quran will have to have studied it in its original language.

Carolyn,

The Quran is an arabic, anyone who thinks that they will be able to excell in studying the Quran and not learn, classical arabic, than they are kidding themselves. Anyone who writes about the Quran will have to have studied it in its original language.

Carolyn,

The Quran is an arabic, anyone who thinks that they will be able to excell in studying the Quran and not learn, classcal arabic, than they are kidding themselves. Anyone who writes about the Quran will have to have studied it in its original language, and take thier knowledge from scholars of the Quran from the past.

Beth,

First off, as a Muslim my feelings about Islam dont matter, when Allah Azzawajal and his Prophet have decided a matter it is not befitting for a Muslim to have any objection. As a consequence of being a TRUE believer I hear and obey. Again my my source is Ibn Kathir but there are many other tafsirs like Tabari, and Quturbi but its only in arabic. They dont differe as much as they may contain in thier explanation more, or other hadiths or views from other scholars. I will not do all of the ones you referred to because its just too much.

In regards to Surah An-Nisa 4:101 let us read what Imam Ibn Kathir, who wrote a very popular tafsir- explanation of the Quran has to say about it.

4:101. And when you Darabtum in the land, there is no sin on you if you shorten the Salah if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial, verily, the disbelievers are ever unto you open enemies.)Salat Al-Qasr, Shortening the Prayer

Allah said,(And when you Darabtum in the land,) meaning if you travel in the land. In another Ayah, Allah said,(He knows that there will be some among you sick, others Yadribuna (traveling) through the land, seeking of Allah's bounty...) [73:20]. Allah's statement,(there is no sin on you if you shorten the Salah (prayer)) by reducing (the units of the prayer) from four to two. Allah's statement,(if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial (attack you)), refers to the typical type of fear prevalent when this Ayah was revealed. In the beginning of Islam, and after the Hijrah, Muslims used to experience fear during most of their travels. Rather, they restricted their movements to large or short military expeditions. During that era, most areas were areas of combatant enemies of Islam and its people. But when the prevalent circumstances cease, or a new situation is prevalent, decrees of this nature may not be understood, as Allah said;(And force not your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity). And His saying;(And your stepdaughters, under your guardianship, born of your wives whom you have gone into) Imam Ahmad recorded that Ya`la bin Umayyah said, "I asked `Umar bin Al-Khattab about the verse:(there is no sin on you if you shorten the prayer. If you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial,) e `Allah granted Muslims safety now' `Umar said to me, `I wondered about the same thing and asked the Messenger of Allah about it and he said,(A gift that Allah has bestowed on you, so accept His gift).'' Muslim and the collectors of Sunan recorded this Hadith. At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih''. `Ali bin Al-Madini said, "This Hadith is Hasan Sahih from the narration of `Umar, and it is not preserved by any other route besides this one, and its narrators are all known.'' Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Shaybah recorded that Abu Hanzalah Al-Hadha' said, "I asked Ibn `Umar about the Qasr prayer and he said, `It consists of two Rak`ahs.' I said, what about Allah's statement,(if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial (attack you),) `We are safe now.' He said, `This is the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah .'''. Al-Bukhari recorded that Anas said, "We went out with the Messenger of Allah from Al-Madinah to Makkah; he used to pray two Rak`ahs until we went back to Al-Madinah.'' When he was asked how long they remained in Makkah, he said, "We remained in Makkah for ten days.'' This was recorded by the Group. Imam Ahmad recorded that Harithah bin Wahb Al-Khuza`i said, "I prayed behind the Prophet for the Zuhr and `Asr prayers in Mina, when the people were numerous and very safe, and he prayed two Rak`ahs.'' This was recorded by the Group, with the exception of Ibn Majah. Al-Bukhari's narration of this Hadith reads, "The Prophet led us in the prayer at Mina during the peace period by offering two Rak`ahs.

Next ayat from Surah Al Tabuah 9:4

9.004 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term.

Existing Peace Treaties remained valid until the End of Their Term

This is an exception regulating the longest extent of time for those who have a general treaty - with out time mentioned - to four months. They would have four months to travel the lands in search of sanctuary for themselves wherever they wish. Those whose treaty mentioned a specifec limited term, then the longest it would extend was to the point of its agreed upon termination date. Hadiths in this regard preceeded. So anyone who had a treaty with Allah's Messenger , it lasted until its specific termination date. However, those in this category were required to refrain from breaking the terms of the agreement with Muslims and from helping non-Muslims against Muslims. This is the type whose peace agreement with Muslims was carried out to its end. Allah encouraged honoring such peace treaties, saying,(Surely, Allah loves those who have Taqwa) [9:4], who keep their promises.

Ofcourse Allah (swt) has authority.

Surah Muhammed 47:4-9

4. So, when you meet those who disbelieve (in battle), smite (their) necks until you have fully defeated them, then tighten their bonds. Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity or ransom, until the war lays down its burden. Thus, and had Allah so willed, He could have taken vengeance against them;--but (He lets you struggle) so as to test with one another. But those who are killed in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.) (5. He will guide them and amend their condition.) (6. And admit them to Paradise, which He has made known to them.) (7. O you who believe! If you support (in the cause of) Allah, He will support you, and make your foothold firm.) (8. But as for those who disbelieve, misery awaits them, and (Allah) will make their deeds vain.) (9. That is because they hate that which Allah has sent down; so He has made their deeds fruitless.)

The Command to strike the Enemies' Necks, tighten Their Bonds, and then free Them either by an Act of Grace or for a Ransom

Guiding the believers to what they should employ in their fights against the idolators, Allah says,(So, when you meet those who disbelieve (in battle), smite their necks) which means, `when you fight against them, cut them down totally with your swords.'(until you have fully defeated them,) meaning, `you have killed and utterly destroyed them.'(tighten their bonds.) `This is referring to the prisoners of war whom you have captured. Later on, after the war ends and the conflict has ceased, you have a choice in regard to the captives: You may either act graciously toward them by setting them free without charge, or free them for a ransom that you require from them.' It appears that this Ayah was revealed after the battle of Badr. At that time, Allah reproached the believers for sparing many of the enemy's soldiers, and holding too many captives in order to take ransom from them. So He said then:(It is not for a Prophet to have captives of war until he had made a great slaughter (among the enemies) in the land. You desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. Allah is Mighty and Wise. Were it not for a prior decree from Allah, a severe torment would have touched you for what you took.) (8:67-68) Allah's saying,(...until the war lays down its burden.) Mujahid said: "Until `Isa bin Maryam (peace be upon him) descends.'' It seems as if he derived this opinion from the Prophet's saying,(There will always be a group of my Ummah victorious upon the truth, until the last of them fight against Ad-Dajjal.) Imam Ahmad recorded from Jubayr bin Nufayr who reported from Salamah bin Nufayl that he went to the Messenger of Allah and said, "I have let my horse go, and thrown down my weapon, for the war has ended. There is no more fighting.'' Then the Prophet said to him,(Now the time of fighting has come. There will always be a group of my Ummah dominant over others. Allah will turn the hearts of some people away (from the truth), so they (that group) will fight against them, and Allah will bestow on them (war spoils) from them (the enemies) -- until Allah's command comes to pass while they are in that state. Verily, the center of the believers' abode is Ash-Sham. And goodness is tied around the horses' foreheads till the Day of Resurrection.) An-Nasa'i also recorded this narration. Allah then says,(Thus, and had Allah so willed, He could have taken vengeance against them;) which means that had He so willed, He could have taken immediate vengeance against the disbelievers with a chastisement or exemplary punishment directly from Him.but (He lets you struggle) so as to test with one another.) meaning, He has ordered Jihad and fighting against the enemies in order to try you and test your affairs. Allah also expresses His wisdom by the legislation of Jihad in the following two Surahs, Al `Iman and At-Tawbah, in which He says,(Or did you think that you would enter the Paradise before Allah had made evident those of you who fight in His cause and made evident those who are steadfast) (3:142)Fight them; Allah will then punish them by your hands, disgrace them, grant you victory over them, satisfy the breasts of a believing people, and remove the fury of their (the believers') hearts. Allah turns in forgiveness to whom He wills; Allah is Knowing and Wise.) ( 9:14-15)

brownwonder...

During that era, most areas were areas of combatant enemies of Islam and its people

That does not flush with the teachings of the Koran if you are using it in that such a command was only meant for that time period.

But here - take a good look at your own understanding...

Guiding the believers to what they should employ in their fights against the idolators, Allah says,(So, when you meet those who disbelieve (in battle), smite their necks) which means, `when you fight against them, cut them down totally with your swords.'(until you have fully defeated them,) meaning, `you have killed and utterly destroyed them.'(tighten their bonds.) `This is referring to the prisoners of war whom you have captured. Later on, after the war ends and the conflict has ceased, you have a choice in regard to the captives: You may either act graciously toward them by setting them free without charge, or free them for a ransom that you require from them.'

What gives a Muslim that right? allah? Your allah is not my Allah!

This is where Christiany - the teachings of the Son of God differ - greatly!

The Works of Christ - The Son of God:

Mat 5:44 I [Jesus] say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good.

Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 5:44 Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The works of Muhammad:

009.005 fight and slay the Pagans ''''wherever'''' ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.

033.061 They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy). Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering

009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight [jihad], smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

005.033 THE PUNISHMENT of those who '''wage war''' against Allah and His Messenger IS: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet.

See the difference? between the two?

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Even your own Koran refers quite often to the Bible brownwonder.

Let us consider:

If every single individual family on earth went out fight ALL who did not obey the father of their own family - how long do you suppose this world would survive?

The ways that Jesus teaches sustain ALL life - indefinately.

They are peaceful - with acts that can NEVER be condemned - by anyone.

brownwonder?...you quoted one of allah's teachings and I would like to dicuss it....

Allah is Mighty and Wise.

If allah is so mighty and wise - why did he forget to mention Palestine?

Isn't it a fact that Palestine is a sore issue for this whole world at present?

And isn't it a fact that it involves the desire of allah's people more than any other on earth?

The Lord of the Bible did not forget to mention it. And He mentioned it for end times - not ancient - beginning with His very first author - Moses.

I will give those if you like - along with 2 other witness to back up the claims of Moses - Isaiah and Joel.

But there are those here who don't like too many Scripture given at once - and I do agree it can become too tedious.

So I'll save those for a separate post - that is - if your interested.

But - I am going to give these - because they truly should make anyone think - anyone who believes in eternal life that is:

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet [Jesus] from among their brethren, like unto thee, [Moses] and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

The Koran forgot to mention Palestine.

The Lord of the Bible did not.

If the power of a GREAT Phrophecy unfolding before everyone's eyes is not enough to prove the Word of the Lord - then what is?

And ever with that said - you STILL choose to hang on that which incites mass murder and war.

The Son of God does NO such thing - as I have shown you - and condemns the violence that you refuse to see in the teachings of the Koran.

Beth,

You sound very confused. You must have alot on your mind.

Yes, whatever comes from the Quran is from Allah Azzawajal. Wether you accept it or not. Similarly when your book of Revelation talks about the righteous, criminals, idolators, whores of babylon i.e. He is talking about everyone in the whole world, even the Buddhist who dont believe in him. So your arguement that Allah is not my god therefore I dont have to hear what he says, I too can say, like most Japanese, or Indians, or Tibetans, the god of the bible isnt my God so I dont have to hear him or believe that he sent his son to die for my sins. (or was it He who came as his own son, I never remember)

"Allah is Mighty and Wise.
If allah is so mighty and wise - why did he forget to mention Palestine?
Isn't it a fact that Palestine is a sore issue for this whole world at present?"

Well actually it probably isnt. Maybe some villagers in Africa really dont care about Palestine, you know with Aids, ethnic conflict, poverty, starvation, they may have more pressing issues. The Eskimos in Alaska probably have more important things on thier mind as well. It seems to me that the only people who care about Palestine are those who say they care about it, which doesnt include, " this whole world at present?"

You're right browndowner, that wasn't clear. Let me explain. An islamic judge and his assorted minions hung that 16 year old girl simply because of her "sharp tongue." That's a mob in my book. I've seen the videos where pious muslims whip the masses into a Jew hating frenzy. That's a mob. When muslim hooligans break into a UK government building and start scaring the crap out of everyone, that a mob too. Every stoning ever executed required a mob. islam is rife with mob mentality and mob violence. Again, islam is mohammed's mob.

"As I have said before there is no mob rule in Islam."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005830.php

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003742.php

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002965.php

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002146.php

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/000399.php

Liar.

"As a consequence of being a TRUE believer I hear and obey."

It never ceases to amaze me that, in islam, TRUE believing requires the total loss of free will and independent thought, yet you say it with such pride. 'Igorance is bliss' has never had a better example.

islam=cult

brownwonder says...

I dont know about you guys but in my religion of Islam smiling is a charity and having good adab (manners) is good dawah.

Is that so brownwonder? WOOoooowww - You could have fooled me!

NOT!!!

Repeating your words brownwonder:

Beth, you are so stupid. {Unquote

I did nothing but quote your own allah - word for word - and you called me stupid?

brownwonder believes herself to be some mysterious muslim woman. She told me so.

I guess such a thing impresses her

Honesty impresses me

Exd 15:14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. Song of Moses - the saints 'sing' this song} Rev 15:3

Maybe that's why allah hates singing so much

Anyways...

Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD?

Isa 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous?

Righteous when He totally disolves Palestine and all who support it.

brownwonder - this is the God Who can not tell a lie.

This is the God Who proves Himself wonderfully! and Marvelously - before the whole world!

with the oldest prophecy given in this world - unfolding before ALL eyes

Butterfly,

"An islamic judge and his assorted minions hung that 16 year old girl simply because of her "sharp tongue."

If you need someone hung, it will take more than one to do it. I dont know how you consider that a mob, It wasnt spontaneous of impulsive but very calculated it seems. I dont know of any punishment for having a sharp tongue. Sounds like ghuloo -extremism. A consequence of acting upon ones desires.

"I've seen the videos where pious muslims whip the masses into a Jew hating frenzy."

Why you assume they were pious? What makes a Muslim pious, and why would whipping up a Jew hating frenzy be consiered piety? The Quran talks about piety in obey Allah and his Messenger, performing salat, going on hajj, fasting the month of ramadan, giving zakat? No one is entered into Jennah based on his level of hatred for jews.

"When muslim hooligans break into a UK government building and start scaring the crap out of everyone, that a mob too."

Why would they do that? In Islam you must be invited into a place. A Hadith from Sahih Muslim, Abu Said Khudri, reported,: We were in the company of Ubayy B. Kab that Abu Musa Ashari came there in a state of anger. He stood before us and said: I ask you to bear witness in the name of Allah whether anyone amongst you heard Allah's Messenger (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) as saying: Permission (for entering the house) should be sought three times and if permission is granted to you (then get in) otherwise go back.

"Every stoning ever executed required a mob."

Butterfly,how do you expect one or two people to carry out a stoning. Even the children of Isreal had to bring elder or a group to the outskirts of a town and do the stoning.

I dont like that you called me a liar. You gave me examples of Muslims acting in a mob and I told you there is no mob rule in Islam. There is always in Imam -leader who is responsible for the people and carries out the affairs of the people. Wehter if be a ruler over the community, the man over his house, the woman over her household, the slave over their masters property. TO the extent that a ruler employees Muslims to carry out a specified duty is thier preference.

"You gave me examples of Muslims acting in a mob and I told you there is no mob rule in Islam" by Brownwonder

Yea right - just like the infidel girl who got pack raped by a bunch of Muslim youths because "she was Australian"

"I dont know how you consider that a mob,..."

mob - 1. a disorderly, lawless crowd. 2. any crowd 3. the masses: contemptous term 4. [slang] a gang of criminals.

I was using definition 4, an islamic judge and his minions=gang of criminals.

"Why you assume they were pious?"

I didn't. It was a sarcastic sneer.

"Why would they do that?"

Gees, you been living in a cave? Hate breeds contempt; contempt fuels resentment. Next, threats and intimidation, hallmarks of islam.

"...how do you expect one or two people to carry out a stoning."

I don't. I expect one or two brave people to stop a stoning.

"I dont like that you called me a liar."

The truth hurts doesn't it? As a TRUE believer, you should probably get used to it.

"You gave me examples of Muslims acting in a mob and I told you there is no mob rule in Islam."

In my vernacular, acting in a mob=mob rule. That's why I'm calling you a liar.

Liar.