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Monday, 18 Jan 2010
So, the government decided to finally release the detained activists on Saturday, and they arrived on Saturday night back to Cairo, unharmed and all. There was no beating, there was no torture, unless you count having to spend a whole day and night in a small room without anything to lay or sit on torture. Well, actually, there was some torturous activities, according to Demagh Mak (who was arrested there for those too lazy to read the previous post ), but it came from the new and excited activists who joined that marsh. They saw too many Arabic movies about being detained by the authorities, and decided they need to act like detainees in those movies, by chanting " We are more free behind bars than you are in real life", and then proceeding to sing patriotic songs in order to "fight the oppressors with our music". I don't know about you, but being locked in the same room with people doing that, that's some cruel and unusual punishment right there. Pity the youngins, why do they always have to be this lame?
Besides that, the story is very straightforward: the activists arrived at Nag3 Hamady really early in the morning, and being on a Friday with half of the town still sleeping, they headed to the local coffee shop for morning tea and Shisha. Not 30 seconds passed by, and 6 huge state security trucks stop by, alongside paddy wagons, and they scoop them all in and arrest them. The person who told on them? A member of the Tagamo3 leftist party. Anyway… So, the drive from the coffee shop to the Police station was 3 minutes, so they all proceeded to make frantic phone calls to anyone they know in order to tell them what's going on. They then arrive at the station, and have all of their phone taken (except Amira el Tahawy, who managed to hide hers) and ended up spending the day getting interrogated, and at night they were presented to the public prosecutor without lawyers, who started making up shit in his reports about how they were arrested in a demonstration and were chanting this or that, and then they were sent back to their cells to spend the night. The Girls, because they are smart, did a sit-in and a hunger strike, and in order not to have a big incident on their hands, the police ended up moving them to the local hospital, where they spent their night. But in the time they spent in their jail-cell, they came upon an interesting discovery: a graffiti written by one of the Killers of Nag3 Hamady. It said "If defending one's right is a crime, then long-live the world of crime". I am guessing he sees killing 17 year olds to be righteous. He is good people. Great values.
The next morning, the order for the release of the activists was made, and they chose not to tell them. They just left them there till noon, and then went and gotten them out of their cells, put them in Mini-buses, and sent them back to Cairo. They are all safe, sound and exhausted. They still got no explanation as to why they were treated this way, and they never got to reach the families of the victims to offer their condolences. Having muslims consoling the families of Christian victims of muslim hate-crimes, well, that's just too much of a risk apparently. It might lessen the hate or something, and we can't have that.
You know, whenever someone would say that the government is behind the sectarian tensions, I would call bullshit, because the government doesn't fill the minds of shooters with hate, give them guns, and have them pull the trigger. That's coming from the people themselves. That belief has not changed to me: the people are responsible here. The people are responsible for their hate, but the government … the government doesn't help lessen it in any way. It's best to keep them divided…easier to rule this way.
January 18th, 2010 at 9:52 am
[...] Rantings of a Sandmonkey » What happened there! http://www.sandmonkey.org/2010/01/18/what-happened-there – view page – cached Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off. [...]
January 18th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
Small progress that they were released so soon. . . and without torture. But the story is far from over.
How much pub is this getting in Egypt? Do the copts know about this attempt of a peaceful outreach by the Muslim activists? Have or will they be mistreated by militant Muslims? Will the majority of the population back the peace makers or the radicals?
Stay tuned. . . .
.
January 18th, 2010 at 9:17 pm
oh the twitter slut is back…btw you is one ugly looking mofo thank your lucky stars yooz got royal blud bee—cuz without it yooz another ugly fuzzy muzzy!
ahmed!
January 19th, 2010 at 3:31 am
[...] Rantings of a Sandmonkey » What happened there! [...]
January 19th, 2010 at 6:00 am
Ahmed you crack me up dude.
And Mahmoud ya Ali Salem (sandmonkey) you’re till full of speculation. What in the world are you talking about; the females went on hunger strike? LMAO, as if anyone is ever fed anything in any police station in Egypt. When was the last time you heard of a police kitchen or fast food delivery here? So if arrestee’s are not fed, then by default, they are on friggen Hunger strike Einstein.
jeeeesh, the extents one will go to pander to their readers
January 19th, 2010 at 10:23 am
If make a choice to write the online essays, you would have to get know that that requires a lot of time! Some people fail their written research paper, just because they do not know how to write! It’s tragic, but the do my paper service will support such kind of people any time they want.
January 19th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 18, 2010
Angry Muslim youths set fire to a church filled with worshipers, starting a riot that killed at least 27 people and wounded more than 300 in Jos, in northern Nigeria, officials said Monday. Sani Mudi, a spokesman for the local imam, said 22 people died in fighting between Christians and Muslims after rioters set fire to a Catholic church on Sunday. Five others died Monday from their wounds. More than 300 people were killed in inter-religious violence in Jos in 2008.
Not just in Eygpt …..muslims are a cancer. jealous muhammed is a bright example, you cowardly puke you just inspired a poetry competition, $10,000 grand prize for the most offensive to muslims, utilizing the character of mohammed and the companions. I can get them published to this is going to be a hoot and mUhAmmAd it wouldn’t have happened but for your efforts, allah’s going to be so proud
January 20th, 2010 at 1:40 am
I’m a Zionist, right? According to your lot, we have all the money in the word, ten grand or a hundred, a drop nothing more…. For insulting islam, most people will probably do that shit for free. You doing your extortion shit, does a wicked good job of showing muslim’s aren’t worthy of any respect, well the mass you represent. The 10 grand will bring out lots of penniless moehammedeans though, I’m sure they have lots of material. God knows the really religious sort will sell their faith for a look up a girl’s skirt. Even I have to admit as a nation, arabs have a tallent for verse. More I think about it the funnier it becomes, and to think I’ve you to thank for it. Muslims shit themselves and try to murder an old man and a little girl over a cartoon, I know lots of good poets who will put works in, easily a book. muhammad you’re an inspiration.
January 20th, 2010 at 5:21 am
IT’s cute you retards, fellating each other, guess that is to be expected from culture that finds gender mixing scary. People world wide don’t hate muslims, normally they are considers a step or two behind the mentally handicapped, just whinier and more irritating. Nobody hates kids with down syndrome, so why would they hate muslims. Having no respect for islam,… well that comes from observing countries that call themselves islamic, reading that miracle(lol) the koran, and the divine law of sharia Even all your clerics like to go on and on about all the plots to destroy islam, truly laughable and tragic. The paranoia he is this one and that one over there is a secret jew and the Freemasons joined up with the Jesuits, who called the illuminati who are really CIA fronts for MOSSAD.
Come on muhammad you don’t really care about the honor of islam or it’s prophet, or insults to them, you see something you will never achieve never hope to create, even jerking off for you now is just an exercise in frustration.
Did you start your own blog an nobody came? day after day checking the hits meter and seeing nothing no attention. What’s a matter you daddy’s son out wife number 3 and he had no time to love you? it’s ok go of somewhere have a good cry, poor thing… my hearts weeps.
Here is a dude who understands how the world sees islam and muslims and like sand monkey he is one of your lot, see I can’t hate all arabs or even muslims.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rzkb7mTgaw&feature=player_embedded —enjoy
January 20th, 2010 at 7:16 am
Ahmed, tarek, MuHaMMaD most likely all = Sand Ape. Just saying!
January 20th, 2010 at 11:45 am
sand monkey has become ‘a nonevent’ all his comments are one-two pro/con trolls..including craig———–sandmonkey is finished i hope you get a shisa up your ass at the tweetup you fuckin toad! you make tamer hosni look like brad pitt you piece of dog scrotal cheese.
January 20th, 2010 at 11:53 am
only in egypt would a fart with the writing skills of a 7th grader call himself ‘a microceleb blogger.’ WTF couldn’t cut it in the states you effen gargoyle!!!! i heard your face might double for conan’s ball sack in the next trilogy you fuck!
January 20th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Hey SM, this Zionist chick is so happy you are back and posting, please keep it up. Even if the posts aren’t all that hot, the comments are great fun to read!
January 20th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
Sand Ape, you are now using no less than 5 handles to comment on this post? And there are only 18 comments in total? Desperate much?
January 20th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
I suppose we’re just supposed to believe that Sandmonkey’s blog has attracted more than half a dozen people who seem to have the exact same mental disorder, the exact same opinions, the exact same alleged sense of humor, and etc. And it’s just coincidence that all of these people are posting comments at roughly the same time, that all of their comments are off topic, and that most of their comments consist of nothing more than virtual high-fives to eachother.
OK. You convinced me!
January 20th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
crotch monkey needs to be fried in a vat of oil karimov style–it might do some good to his complexion.
oh yeah i also heard they’re casting your face as Mo’nique’s ASS DOUBLE IN HER NEXT MOVIE…you filthy fuck.
January 20th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
[...] everyone else, Sandmonkey is wondering What Happened There! So, the government decided to finally release the detained activists on Saturday, and they arrived [...]
January 20th, 2010 at 11:05 pm
[...] everyone else, Sandmonkey is wondering What Happened There! So, the government decided to finally release the detained activists on Saturday, and they arrived [...]
January 21st, 2010 at 1:49 am
[...] قرد الرمال مثل الآخرين: ماذا يحدث هناك! [انجليزي] إذا فقد قررت الحكومة الإفراج عن الناشطين [...]
January 21st, 2010 at 7:37 am
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@ Zendette “keep it up. Even if the posts aren’t all that hot”
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You can say that again babes.
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January 21st, 2010 at 7:48 am
Cox, if you are reading this, in response to your comment on the post, the Egyptian Algerian war.
Actually the Bulk of Jews originated in Egypt as slaves before they were ordered to vacate the soon to be destroyed nation of Egypt. Over the centuries Jews reintegrated back into Egypt and other Arab lands which they ended up purging in order to migrate to Palestine under the guise of colonial Zionism, effectively betraying their respective nations in the process. The manner in which they did this is the root cause of the conflict, not the Biblical claims to the said land in this, thus far secular world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJksjPALbqY&feature=related
January 21st, 2010 at 5:56 pm
how are those edible chaps fitting you sam?
say hi to your boyfriend for me.
January 22nd, 2010 at 8:07 am
Kristin29 @ 6:
I find it a little bit funny that you’re (seemingly) commenting on peoples’ poor writting skills, but failing miserably in the process…
What gives?
January 22nd, 2010 at 8:25 am
Funny shit @ 21:
“Actually the Bulk of Jews originated in Egypt as slaves”
Yeah, an entire ethnic group ORIGINATED as slaves…
In the real world, genealogical research has shown that jews (from all corners of the world) have more in common with Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians than any other ethnic group, placing their origin smack in the middle of the Levant, as expected…
January 22nd, 2010 at 8:26 am
By the way, good to see that you’re still alive and kicking, Sam… I guess things are quiet in Egypt, seeing as your posts are few and far between?
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Israel is very happy today !
January 22nd, 2010 at 7:41 pm
Yey! SM’s back!
January 23rd, 2010 at 4:55 am
HE HE irrelevant observation Adam.
So now the Levant, the Entire Eastern board of the Mediterranean - stretching from Turkey to Egypt, including Kurds, Druze, Copts, Arabs is Jewish now eh? However it is more correct to note that within the Levant, there were and still is, many different ethnic groups. So for the “Bulk” of one ethnic group to have originated from within the Levant is not far fetched at all.
January 23rd, 2010 at 1:23 pm
sandmonkey was caught deepthroating in the dj booth at purple on tues.
January 23rd, 2010 at 4:33 pm
So now the Levant, the Entire Eastern board of the Mediterranean - stretching from Turkey to Egypt, including Kurds, Druze, Copts, Arabs is Jewish now eh?
So many problems up in there, above and beyond the fact that you deliberately misinterpreted what Adam claimed - which was that genetic analysis shows Jews originated in the Levant, not that everyone in the Levant is Jewish.
For instance: Egypt is not part of the Levant. Neither is Turkey. And even if Turkey was part of the Levant, which it isn’t, the Turks are not indigenous to Turkey anyway so they could not correctly be called a Levantine people. Even if Turkey was part of the Levant, which it isn’t (I know I made this point about Turkey not being part of the Levant but I find that a good policy when dealing with ADD kids).
Also, Kurdistan is not part of the Levant. Unlike the Turks, though, the Kurds actually are indigenous to Kurdistan, by way of the Medes. But again: Kurdistan is not in the Levant.
However it is more correct to note that within the Levant, there were and still is, many different ethnic groups. So for the “Bulk” of one ethnic group to have originated from within the Levant is not far fetched at all.
Copts are not Levantine. Copts are Egyptian. Again: Egypt is not in the Levant.
Arabs are not indigenous to the Levant. Arabs come from the Arabian peninsula. The Arabian peninsula is not part of the Levant.
The Druze actually seem to be Levantine. Good job! You got one right! I suppose even an ADD kid can get something to stick once in a while if he throws enough mud against the wall. And 1 out of 5 ain’t bad for a guy who rode the shortbus to school.
January 23rd, 2010 at 5:29 pm
Craig - And another example of a closed minded person agonizing for a taste of relief which he wasn’t able to experience in their past life. Hobbits chirping in the midnight air. As even a school kid can understand that you should only speak when spoken to. Is your name Adam or cox mr. Craig cock? the only reason I entertained Adam was to because he was snarkily polite. But you, nobody asked you shit, so take a seat. Tell you what. Why not call me sand ape
January 23rd, 2010 at 5:31 pm
@ LOL - Everyone knows he’s a struggling fag but BTW, who did he get caught blowing - Fido?
January 23rd, 2010 at 6:46 pm
As if anyone asked for your input, here or anyplace else? lol
Why not call me sand ape
Why should I call you anything? You can’t even make up your mind what name you want to go by.
January 23rd, 2010 at 10:07 pm
DWDS @ 31:
“the only reason I entertained Adam was to because he was snarkily polite”
Odd, ’cause that was Funny Shit, who responded up there… You know, one of the many poster-identities which you insist are NOT you/one and the same person.
And as Craig pointed out, it seems you missed the point of my comment entirely. Jews on a broad scale have been shown to have the closest genetic kinship with Kurds, Palestinians and Syrians, meaning that their origin is overwhelmingly likely to be similar, ie. the Levant. As in “not Egypt”…
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:01 pm
hey cockmonkey will you be showing your deepthroat shots on your new gaybook fan page…i heard 2 bouncers at purple had you AIR TIGHT in the backroom while the owner watched.
January 24th, 2010 at 12:05 am
I’ve been reading this blog for a loooooong, loooooooong, time.
YOU’LL ARE FUNNY………..
January 24th, 2010 at 4:52 am
Spam filter removed comment to Adam. It was there I read it!
So Adam, not you too! Now I am sand monkey as well?
Dictionary Definition of Levant: the area around the eastern Mediterranean; from Turkey to northern Africa and eastward to Iran; the site of such ancient civilizations as Phoenicia and Babylon and Egypt and the birthplace of Judaism and Christianity and Islam; had continuous economic and political turmoil in the 20th century; “the Middle East is the cradle of Western civilization”
So yes, Turkey and Egypt are parts of the Levant. Obviously the Levant is not home to only one race of people, it never has been and never will be. So again your point Adam is irrelevant because it does not debunk my statement, as I am not arguing that point. I am however informing you that the bulk of Jews did not originate in Palestine/Israel of today. They originated in Egypt, before migrating to the Palestine/Israel of today.
Laying exclusive claim to the said land based on a book which is not an authority to say the least, in today’s secular world, is a few spokes short of a wheel. No one knows if the migrating Jews arrived in said land as conqueror’s or pacifists, no one can say. And if anyone could, whose account of history should be believed? The land should be shared, but for that to happen, Israeli’s have to abandon this ancient belief that the land is theirs and only there’s and anyone who wants to live there has to live under their rule of law. Under the guise of democracy, freedom and equal rights (illegal settlements etc).
Since that is unacceptable and will never happen, I mean if history is any indicator at all.
January 24th, 2010 at 8:40 am
Funny Shit @ 37:
“Spam filter removed comment to Adam. It was there I read it!”
Are you completely moronic? It was your other monicker, DWDS, I was responding to!
But thanks for once again confirming your multiple identities on this blog, Sandy…
“Dictionary Definition of Levant: the area around the eastern Mediterranean; from Turkey to northern Africa and eastward to Iran”
Mmm… And here’s another definition of the Levant:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/a/aa/20061004013221!The_Levant_3.png
A bit of research would have shown you that, historically, the Levant has no set boundaries, but in modern times is defined as the area around the eastern shore of the Mediterranean. Which actually matters very little, since I specifically stressed the relationship to Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians, and only used the term “the Levant” as a description of the general area… But such things do not concern you much, do they? After all, if you can find even the slightest way of twisting the truth to make it fit your absurd arguments, no matter how ridiculous, you’ll happily do so, right?
In short; no, Jews did not originate as slaves in Egypt. History AND scientific evidence (as well as common sense) dictates otherwise.
“a book which is not an authority to say the least”
I can agree to this, at least, but it goes just as much for the Quran, and every other religious text as well…
“Israeli’s have to abandon this ancient belief that the land is theirs and only there’s”
As must the Arabs with their much more recent idea that every place that Arabs settle automatically becomes Arab territory…
By the way, Greece is the cradle of western civilization; not the ME… Religion certainly wasn’t the key factor in our development, quite the contrary actually - western civilization only took off AFTER religious ideas had lost much of their oomph…
January 24th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
btw sandmonkey loves to be cradled by a BIG GRECIAN WEARING NOTHING BUT A TOGA.
hey sam why don’t you blog about the time when we were in Mekanos and those three guys passed you around on the beach at 4am.
ahh memories that was lotssa fun i still have the picture of you with my dick in your mouth.
January 24th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
oh sam does give the best BJ’s he is the only guy that knows how to deep throat the right way…
he is so talented.
January 24th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
Religion certainly wasn’t the key factor in our development, quite the contrary actually - western civilization only took off AFTER religious ideas had lost much of their oomph…
Gotta disagree with you there, Adam. The humanist philosophers who were the driving force behind secular democracy in the West used religion as the foundation for their philosophy. So much so that humanist philosophy could not have existed, without God. I know that gets under your skin as an atheist but you’ll just have to deal with it
January 24th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
sandmonkey has made me see god several times on the beach in mekanos.
January 24th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
I think you are supposed to use names like “brad” when you make comments like that.
January 24th, 2010 at 10:52 pm
Now @ “lol” I am sure people would get a great kick out of seeing that picture. please post it on flicker for us and drop the link
The funny shit is visiting this blog while knowing it caters to a bunch of latent homosexuals with huge identity crisis’, so characteristic of Zionism.
Adam you moronic shit bag, where the hell do get off with your preposterous presumptions? You were obviously sodomized by someone named Sandy you dumb fuck LOL
I guess anyone and everyone is Sandmonkey to you. If you hate this blog so much then why do you even come here? I didn’t even bother to read your sorry ass reply after you lost your wig before you even typed the first sentence. Besides everyone already knows the story of the Moses leading the slaves ” OUT OF ‘EGYPT’ ” to the already inhabited land now temporarily called Israel so get over it. As science has proven nothing to the contrary.
January 25th, 2010 at 5:54 am
“Funny Shit,” welcome to the realm of the disillusioned, you will be getting a lot of that here when you disagree with the select few. BTW they are referring to a reader named Sand Ape not the Sandmonkey (Mood-Mahmoud Ali Salem)the owner of this blog. Believe it or not, they even try to convince me that I am Sand Ape from time to time as well.
Having said that, you are pretty much on the mark. the jooz did live in Egypt as slaves before their exodus and, there is no scientific evidence to prove otherwise. They were NOT ordered by God to go join their brethren up north LOL, for they had none.
January 25th, 2010 at 9:06 am
Craig @ 41:
I don’t consider humanist philosophy to be the sole definition of western civilization, sorry. I see western civilization as originating in the renaissance of northern Itlay, where classical ideas (as opposed to orthodox christian ideas), both practical and philosofical, were given a rebirth. I’ll admit that the renaissance arose in a religious society, but I’ll maintain that, at it’s core, it struggled against the oppression of religion, even despite many of it’s prominent figures being devoted christians themselves… Even the humanist philosophy you mention had to fight the conservative nature of the church, hence todays tendency to view humanism as anti-clerical, even though it’s instigators were unquestionably religious. Notice, by the way, that the idea behind humanist philosophy is also classical, and thus predates christianity…
January 25th, 2010 at 9:19 am
**FUNNY SHIT** @ 44:
“Adam you moronic shit bag, where the hell do get off with your preposterous presumptions? You were obviously sodomized by someone named Sandy you dumb fuck LOL”
Thank you for demonstrating your argumentative shortcomings and frustrations!
It’s clear that any attempt to reason with you is doomed from the beginning…
“If you hate this blog so much then why do you even come here?”
Lol, I happen to like this blog. It’s you who’s in direct opposition to it’s creator, or haven’t you noticed?
“I didn’t even bother to read your sorry ass reply”
Of course you didn’t. Your inability to come up with a reasonable answer to any argument I make must be pure bile in your throat, and nigh unbearable…
“Besides everyone already knows the story of the Moses leading the slaves ” OUT OF ‘EGYPT’”
Yes, and most of us (MuHaMMaD excluded, obviously) also know that slaves are usually prisoners of war or conquest, taken from their homeland and put to work elsewhere… Or are you also arguing that all american negros originated in the americas?
“already inhabited land”
Probably. Very few (if any) of the worlds nationalities can factually claim to be the first inhabitants of their present countries. However, none of the people living in Israel before the arrival of the Jews are in existence anymore, so there’s no point in bringing it up in this case…
“As science has proven nothing to the contrary.”
Yes it has. Jews, both living in Israel and in the rest of the world, are genetically more closely related to Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians, than any other group of people. This is scientific fact.
January 25th, 2010 at 9:39 am
http://bikyamasr.com/?p=7863
It can only be an improvement, right…?
January 25th, 2010 at 10:14 am
[...] jeder andere auch fragt sich Sandmonkey: Was Ist Dort Passiert?! Die Regierung entschied sich also endlich, die verhafteten Aktivisten am Samstag zu entlassen und [...]
January 25th, 2010 at 10:50 am
[...] Wie jeder andere auch fragt sich Sandmonkey: Was Ist Dort Passiert?! [...]
January 25th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
LOL @ Adam declaring false victory again and again, while endlessly contradicting himself.
“already inhabited land,
Probably.”
Actually, factually, therefore contradicting himself yet again with more false claims of superior reasoning skills and intellect lol.
” However, none of the people living in Israel before the arrival of the Jews are in existence anymore.”
I guess he never heard of the Samaria in the West bank town of Palestine, they are the original owners of said land. But that doesn’t matter to him, he just goes on making up facts all the time and accusing others of doing exactly what he is the expert at.
Thinking the ancient Egyptians invaded and took them a slaves, while it is actually quite to the contrary.
The temple at Medinet Habu which record a people called the P-r-s-t (conventionally Peleset) among the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt in Ramesses III’s reign.[12] The Hebrew name Peleshet (פלשת Pəléshseth)- usually translated as Philistia in English, is used in the Bible to denote the southern coastal region that was inhabited by the Philistines.
The Assyrian emperor Sargon II called the same region Palashtu or Pilistu in his Annals.[9][10][10][14] In the 5th century BCE, Herodotus wrote in Ancient Greek of a ‘district of Syria, called Palaistinê” (whence Palaestina, whence Palestine)
January 25th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Way to go Muhammad! Thanks for clarifying that because i was thinking to myself like WTF is going on here. Talk about rabid projectionist’s :/
January 25th, 2010 at 4:15 pm
I don’t consider humanist philosophy to be the sole definition of western civilization, sorry.
It’s always something, isn’t it?
Adam, of the several factors that led to modern western societies the most important were probably the (Protestant) reformation, the industrial revolution and the development of secular democracy. Two of those three things were related directly to Christianity. And you of course ignore all that happened before late middle-ages to set the stage for those events, as you ignore the more recent role that Christians played in ending slavery, campaigning for civil rights and voting rights, and so on. It’s only been the last 50 years that Europe broke from it’s Christian roots, Adam. And that has yet to happen at all over here in the US. You can’t remove Christianity from Western Culture, modern or otherwise. No matter how much you might like to
January 25th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Yes it has. Jews, both living in Israel and in the rest of the world, are genetically more closely related to Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians, than any other group of people. This is scientific fact.
One more thing, Adam… I agree with you on this one, the evidence does seem to indicate that. But I wouldn’t call it “scientific fact”. Not everyone who does a genetic analysis is reputable. And even if they are, interpreting what the results really mean is highly speculative. Do a search on genetic analysis in England, for instance, and you’ll find there are at least 3 major claims and all 3 of them are mutually exclusive.
January 26th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Craig @ 53:
I’m not sure many of the countries of the Western world will agree with you on the Protestant-argument…
But I agree with it’s importance. However, the nature of it’s importance is to DIMINISH the role of the church (and consequently religion) in society, so even if the change is religious in nature, the consequence falls in the secular category - people were now less inclined to let the clericality rule their everyday lives, and as a consequence religion would in time be a more debatable subject.
I believe we can safely agree to place the industrial revolution outside the religious sphere?
As for the development of secular democracy, I believe the term speaks for itself - the very core of it’s virtue is in it’s indepedence from religion. Even though our present secualr democracy has slowly evolved from less secular origins (considering that it’s instigators were religious themselves) it’s very essence has from the start been to avoid direct political control by religious authorities. Even though secularness may not have been the original intention, it is precisely this evolvement which has made the idea so strong and enduring, and allowed for such wealth and freedom in the Western world today…
“And you of course ignore all that happened before late middle-ages to set the stage for those event”
I don’t ignore the fact that the shape of the modern, western society was formed out of christian societies. I just believe that the only reason why this happened is 1: because of a basic, simple, good concept at the core of christianity, and 2: because of the diminishing power of religion, or rather the church. The modern society didn’t end up the way it has because christianity “was right” but because logical thinking showed that some elements of christianity were beneficial to society, regardless of any religious connection. In short, the wisest minds came up with the principles of modern society (partly based on heathen greek teachings), and luckily christianity contained a core essence, that mirrored these ideas.
“as you ignore the more recent role that Christians played in ending slavery”
This is true, but christianity also defined the argument FOR slavery… I prefer to think of it as modern christianity influenced by non-religious humanitarian philosophy.
“You can’t remove Christianity from Western Culture”
That’s a dificult subject, and we’re busy discussing it right here… Are western values based on christian values, or do they just happen to converge? You believe the first; I believe the latter, to some degree - I won’t completely refuse the impact of the christian ideals of goodness… I do, however, believe that the Western world would (and could) be perfectly well off with dropping christianity - any religion - outright.
January 26th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
MuHaMMaD @ 51:
“Actually, factually”
Care to elaborate? Actually present proof of some kind, for once? Seeing as we’re talking pre-history here, it’s hard to say anything concrete, hence my “probably”… And again, it doesn’t matter, since none of these supposed original populations are around anymore.
“the Samaria in the West bank town of Palestine, they are the original owners of said land”
“Thinking the ancient Egyptians invaded and took them a slaves, while it is actually quite to the contrary.”
Basically, you’re saying that Jews invaded Egypt to capture slaves, but somehow you still claim that Jews originated as slaves in Egypt…? Wow, that’s some twisted logic you’ve got going there!
But then again, by your logic the philistines (now the Palestinians) were actually Jews!!! Thank you for that admittance - I’ll be sure to mention it from now on… 
“In the 5th century BCE”
And when did the Arabs arrive again…?
In any case, it’s semantics - the philistines lived in what is roughly Gaza today, while the judeans lived on the western shore of the dead sea and the israelites lived north of both. So what of it? The philistines have died out or been assimilated into the combined judean/israelite (now Jewish) population long ago…
January 26th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
@ “Basically, you’re saying that Jews invaded Egypt to capture slaves, but somehow you still claim that Jews originated as slaves in Egypt…? Wow, that’s some twisted logic you’ve got going there!”
Are you completely and hopelessly retarded Danish boy? Can you not read?
The temple at Medinet Habu which record a people called the P-r-s-t (conventionally Peleset) among the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt in Ramesses III’s reign.[12] The Hebrew name Peleshet (פלשת Pəléshseth)- usually translated as Philistia in English, is used in the Bible to denote the southern coastal region that was inhabited by the Philistines.
They are the Palestinians not the Jews. History dictates that these people predated ancient Egypt a well as the Jews. But then again making up shit and ignoring facts is the name of your game isn’t it?
What a friggin loser
January 26th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Adam,
I’m not sure many of the countries of the Western world will agree with you on the Protestant-argument…
Doesn’t matter if they agree or not. The Catholic Church lost its undisputed monopoly on Christian doctrine, and reformed itself as a result or Protestant revolts all across Europe. Would the Catholic Church have reformed otherwise? Maybe. Or maybe Europe would be just as backwards today as much of the Islamic world is.
But I agree with it’s importance. However, the nature of it’s importance is to DIMINISH the role of the church (and consequently religion) in society, so even if the change is religious in nature, the consequence falls in the secular category…
I disagree. There is no “clergy” to speak of in Protestantism. So the clergy ruling on a secular level is obviously impossible. And you know what? That isn’t a coincidence!
…people were now less inclined to let the clericality rule their everyday lives, and as a consequence religion would in time be a more debatable subject.
A more personal subject. Again, not a coincidence. The Protestants fought for “secularism” before the concept even existed.
I believe we can safely agree to place the industrial revolution outside the religious sphere?
Yep! Unless I can think of some way to attribute the rise of the merchant class to Christianity!
As for the development of secular democracy, I believe the term speaks for itself - the very core of it’s virtue is in it’s indepedence from religion. Even though our present secualr democracy has slowly evolved from less secular origins (considering that it’s instigators were religious themselves) it’s very essence has from the start been to avoid direct political control by religious authorities. Even though secularness may not have been the original intention, it is precisely this evolvement which has made the idea so strong and enduring, and allowed for such wealth and freedom in the Western world today…
Well, a separation between the worldly and the spiritual was seen as something highly desirable by Protestants. And that was because of centuries of abuse of power by the Catholic Clergy. I think you make a mistake when you imply the movement towards progressively more secular governments was a move AWAY from Christianity.
This is true, but christianity also defined the argument FOR slavery… I prefer to think of it as modern christianity influenced by non-religious humanitarian philosophy.
I’m not sure where that’s coming from, Adam, but as a Dane you must be well aware that Northern Europeans have been practicing slavery since prehistoric times
That’s a dificult subject, and we’re busy discussing it right here… Are western values based on christian values, or do they just happen to converge?
I wasn’t discussing western “values”. I was discussing western culture. By while we’re on it, can you enumerate what you consider to be “western values” and then tell me where you think they originated?
January 26th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
I think you make a mistake when you imply the movement towards progressively more secular governments was a move AWAY from Christianity.
A little more on that… I would argue that secularism was a move TOWARDS the Christianity of Jesus. The Catholic Church was an abomination (sorry, Catholics) in the way that it redefined doctrine to give itself supreme worldly powers. I suspect Jesus would have been appalled.
January 27th, 2010 at 8:47 am
Craig @ 58:
What I meant to say with regards to Protestantism is that the protestant movement was pretty much limited to northern Europe (Scandinavia, England, Germany and the low countries), and even here it was never a cohesive unit. Sure, France saw some protestant tendencies, but these were never numerous and were quickly quenched by the catholic church. In so far as we consider southern Europe a part of the Western world (indeed, northern Italy may well be it’s craddle!), it’s difficult to argue that Protestantism had a decisive hand in it’s creation.
You mention the catholic reformation… Actually, that would be counter-reformation (as it tried to counter the watering-out of the christian (catholic) beliefs and the emergence of entirely different christian belief systems), which resulted in, among other things, the Inquisition, famous for persecuting scientist and other free-thinkers. Not exactly a step in the right direction…! To this day, catholicism is struggling with it’s conservative ways and it’s contrast with a modern society.
“There is no “clergy” to speak of in Protestantism”
There are priests and bishops, just like in catholicism. The Protestant church just happen to have moved along with society, and have lost much of their previous power over the populace, mostly as a result of the lessening degree of religiouness on it’s part. You mentioned the religious difference between Europe and the US. It’s telling that priests in the US hold a lot more sway over their communities than their counterparts in Europe, no?
“The Protestants fought for “secularism” before the concept even existed.”
Indeed they did, but not on a religious basis; quite the opposite, imho…
“Unless I can think of some way to attribute the rise of the merchant class to Christianity!”
Give it a shot!
“I think you make a mistake when you imply the movement towards progressively more secular governments was a move AWAY from Christianity.”
We’ll have to agree to disagree then…
“but as a Dane you must be well aware that Northern Europeans have been practicing slavery since prehistoric times”
True, the vikings had a term called “træl”; thrall in english. This was done away with with the coming of christianity, but through the centuries, christianity became “perverted”, and with the rise of african slavery, the church did little to stop the practice - on the contrary, it argued thus:
Christians traditionally believed that Canaan (grandson of Noah) had settled in Africa. The dark skin of Africans became associated with this “curse of Ham.” Thus slavery of Africans became religiously justifiable.
The Pope might have spoken out (not acted, mind you) against slavery, but the common christian had no problem with the concept, and neither did the american clergy for that matter. Social and economic factors as well as spiritual uncertainties were the main problem, but for the absoluteness that is the very nature of religion, compromise and indecisiveness is (or should be) a catastrophe.
As a side note, I’d like to point out that - without any sanctimoniousness - Denmark was the first European slave-holding country to outlaw slave trade, and the only country to dismanttle the practice of slavery peacefully, as far as I know…
“I wasn’t discussing western “values”. I was discussing western culture.”
I fail to see the difference…
January 27th, 2010 at 8:52 am
Craig @ 59:
“I suspect Jesus would have been appalled.”
Quite right!
I’d like to point out that I see Jesus as a nice fellow with good intentions. His only problem was trying to tie in his ideas of common goodness and love with the existence of some imaginary, all-powerfull being. He did live in a primitive world, so he’s forgiven…
January 27th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
What I meant to say with regards to Protestantism is that the protestant movement was pretty much limited to northern Europe (Scandinavia, England, Germany and the low countries), and even here it was never a cohesive unit. Sure, France saw some protestant tendencies, but these were never numerous and were quickly quenched by the catholic church.
Are you trying to claim that 150 years of religious war in Europe was unimportant? lol. The three major powers that emerged after the smoke cleared were France, England and Spain. You are discussing matters that literally shaped Western Europe in its current form. And impacted most of the rest of the known world, directly. It was Puritan refugees and exiles from the English Civil war that were the early American colonists, for instance.
In so far as we consider southern Europe a part of the Western world (indeed, northern Italy may well be it’s craddle!), it’s difficult to argue that Protestantism had a decisive hand in it’s creation.
Italy? Italy has been irrelevant in terms of political power since the German tribes began their invasions ~1500 years ago. In terms of arts, science and religion, it played a big role.
You mention the catholic reformation… Actually, that would be counter-reformation…
Actually I think I said the catholic Church reformed itself as a result of the rise of Protestantism.
(as it tried to counter the watering-out of the christian (catholic) beliefs and the emergence of entirely different christian belief systems), which resulted in, among other things, the Inquisition, famous for persecuting scientist and other free-thinkers
The Inquisition was first instituted to purge Spain of closet Muslims and Jews, who ignored the order to convert or vacate. It was later used in an attempt to purge Protestants, who amongst other things objected to the Catholic Churches use of inquisitions. Bit ironic, no?
Persecuting scientists and other heretics and blasphemers was just a side job.
Not exactly a step in the right direction…!
I think you put the cart before the horse, there. At the end of Europe’s religious wars, the Catholic Church was substantially more tolerant and substantially less powerful than it was before and during.
To this day, catholicism is struggling with it’s conservative ways and it’s contrast with a modern society.
Agreed.
There are priests and bishops, just like in catholicism.
Only in Anglicanism, which is closer to a hybrid between actual Protestantism and Catholicism.
The Protestant church just happen to have moved along with society, and have lost much of their previous power over the populace, mostly as a result of the lessening degree of religiouness on it’s part.
Yeah? So who is Pastor Pat Robertson’s boss? Who is his Bishop? Who is his Cardinal? Who is his Pope? When somebody wants to go over his head, who do they call? And why isn’t he called a Priest? What about another famous Pastor, Martin Luther King? Who did he take his marching orders from?
You mentioned the religious difference between Europe and the US. It’s telling that priests in the US hold a lot more sway over their communities than their counterparts in Europe, no?
Which Priests are you talking about? I can’t name a single Priest in the US with any substantial influence. In fact, I can’t name a single American Priest. I can name many Pastors, though.
Jesse Jackson - activist, Presidential candidate
Al Sharpton - activist
Pat Robertson - evangelist, activist
Mike Huckabee (ran against Obama last election)
Jeremiah Wright (Obama’s Pastor)
Martin Luther King - activist
Jerry Falwell - activist
Rick Warren - evangelist, author
And so on. I could name a couple dozen more just off the top of my head.
Indeed they did, but not on a religious basis; quite the opposite, imho…
I disagree. In fact, they did use scripture to show that Christians were never meant to wield the kind of secular authority that the Catholic Church had assumed.
True, the vikings had a term called “træl”; thrall in english.
All the Germanic tribes used the same tribal system, Adam. That’s why the same words for the various social classes exist in all the Germanic societies and in many cases are still used, even though that tribal system went out with the advent of feudalism.
This was done away with with the coming of christianity…
No, not really. They were just reclassified as serfs, indentured servants, tenant farmers and other forms of involuntary servitude. This is a good article on serfdom under feudalism (which was post-Christian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom
…but through the centuries, christianity became “perverted”
Christianity was perverted by the Eastern and Western Roman Empires long before it reached the masses of Northern Europe, Adam.
The Pope might have spoken out (not acted, mind you) against slavery, but the common christian had no problem with the concept, and neither did the american clergy for that matter.
Saying “American clergy” in regards to the US of the 19th century is a bit silly, you know? We had about 15 Catholics in the country at the time and they all worked really shitty jobs in a mine in Pennsylvania.
The fact remains that the abolitionists were devout Christians.
As a side note, I’d like to point out that - without any sanctimoniousness - Denmark was the first European slave-holding country to outlaw slave trade, and the only country to dismanttle the practice of slavery peacefully, as far as I know…
Wasn’t Denmark the last pagan country in Europe too?
I fail to see the difference…
Between values and culture? Really? And how would you define culture, then? Because values aren’t even part of culture, according to my understanding. Culture is what is and has been, and values are what people think their society should promote and strive for. One is reality and the other is an ideal.
I’d like to point out that I see Jesus as a nice fellow with good intentions. His only problem was trying to tie in his ideas of common goodness and love with the existence of some imaginary, all-powerfull being. He did live in a primitive world, so he’s forgiven…
Well, that’s what I always tell my agnostic friends, Adam. Even if you don’t believe, Jesus came up with a pretty good blueprint for living so shut up and read
January 27th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
I thought the topic was about Copts in Egypt oh well!
Algeria sucks!
January 27th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
Nope! The topic seems to have been how much Sandmonkey annoys Sand Ape but Adam and I got sidetracked.
January 28th, 2010 at 2:14 am
I really want to thank those who supported the Coptic Christians. I live in the US and they have told me horror stories of how they are treated. I contrast that with how Muslims can practice their faith here without persecution. Many Christians are learning more about the double standard and how our coreligionists are treated. This does not bode well for Muslims. How can they claim “Islamophobia” when Copts are shot while walking out of Mass? And then the government supports the shooters!
But I do thank the Muslims who put it on the line to protest this. If there were more like you we would not have the current conflicts. We deeply appreciate it when Muslims don’t ignore things like this, but actually confront persecution. Please continue to support the Christians of the Middle East. They are a vital part of the culture and should be equal citizens with equal rights. Thank you.
January 28th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Jewish warrior battles Muslim warrior in the ring, for the show down that was dubbed “Holy War” by the media.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn1D9ZBYiwM
Watch the video to see the spectacular results.
As always-may the best man win!
January 28th, 2010 at 10:45 am
@ Fr. J post no. 65,
Thank you, there are many practicing Muslims who are appalled by the atrocities that take place on a daily basis towards Egyptian Copts. As the famous quote goes “All that is needed for evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing!”
Now having said that, let’s dissect your comment:
“Many Christians are learning more about [the double standard] and how our coreligionists are treated. ”
“This does not bode well for Muslims. How can they claim “Islamophobia” when Copts are shot while walking out of Mass? And then the government supports the shooters!”
Just as true is the degree of US support for Israel, no matter how influenced by lobbyists the US government is in doing so. The fact remains that Israel is not only supported but armed by the worlds only super power and its allies, stealing land in the name of defence.
“But I do thank the Muslims who put it on the line to protest this.”
Muslims protest both calamities, the ones in Egypt as well as Palestine, but unfortunately to no avail.
“If there were more like you we would not have the current conflicts. ”
Not when good men sit around and do nothing. The Arab Israeli conflict is much larger and supersedes the the Coptic one. Therefore, unfortunately, it is the epitome as well as the barometer for which justice in the entire middle East is judged. Followed by whats happening in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, K.S.A. etc.
“We deeply appreciate it when Muslims don’t ignore things like this, but actually confront persecution.” ..Like wise I am sure!
“Please continue to support the Christians of the Middle East. They are a vital part of the culture and should be equal citizens with equal rights. Thank you.”
Please continue to support the Palestinians as the same is just as true. Instead of insinuating that the Arab world–Christians included–are putting the entire onus on Israel for all their ills, it is time to take a refreshing look at the main course of Apartheid intolerance amidst the heart and soul of the Middle East!
Long live Palestine
January 28th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
DownWithDoubleStandards @ 67:
“stealing land in the name of defence.”
And getting shot at and terrorbombed in the name of… Oh well, just because the Palestinians will not accept a non-muslim state in the ME.
“Muslims protest both calamities, the ones in Egypt as well as Palestine”
Do they? I see very few muslim protests against suicide bombs and rocket attacks…
” The Arab Israeli conflict is much larger and supersedes the the Coptic one. Therefore, unfortunately, it is the epitome as well as the barometer for which justice in the entire middle East is judged. Followed by whats happening in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, K.S.A. etc.”
Why do I get the feeling that you see the Palestinian conflict as being solely the fault of Israel, and the removal of dictators/terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan as being something bad…?
“are putting the entire onus on Israel for all their ills,”
Well, aren’t they? Notice how discussions on this board always end up in some kind i tirade against Israel, no matter what the subject?
” it is time to take a refreshing look at the main course of Apartheid intolerance amidst the heart and soul of the Middle East!”
Very true! It’s high time the Arabs of the region accepted the existence of a non-muslim state in their midst…
January 29th, 2010 at 12:28 am
Down, US support of Israel has NOTHING to do with the persecution of Copts. It is this kind of reasoning that creates Islamic terrorism and the current conflicts. It also has NOTHING to do with equal rights, freedom of religion, and the freedom that Muslims have to practice their faith in the US. Why do Muslims immediately change the subject and start bashing Israel? The Jews and Americans are not the Muslims main problems. Why should we not support Israel when we see how Muslims mistreat others in their own countries? Why do I not see Muslims protesting when terrorism occurs? Even this protest was very small. If a million Muslims protested it then it would stop, but as sandmonkey points out this persecution is supported by the majority. Much of the conflict in the middle east is not generated by us, 911 was not an inside job. When I was in Israel I found most Israeli’s willing to cut a deal for peace, but most Arabs were not. Israel isn’t going anywhere and you need to accept that as a fact. Just today Iran threatened nuclear war, again. Stop the hatred, sit down, and accept reality. Your response simply shows why persecution of Christians continues and why violence is epidemic. It undermines everything that I wrote. How sad.
January 29th, 2010 at 8:57 am
Craig @ 62:
“Are you trying to claim that 150 years of religious war in Europe was unimportant? lol.”
No, I’m trying to explain that the emergence of Protestantism occured in a quarter of western Europe, much less looking at the population, and as such cannot account for the development of modern society. This would mean that Europe south of Hamburg was not part of the Western world…
“In terms of arts, science and religion, it played a big role.”
If you throw in philosophy as well, this is pretty much was makes up the basics of a modern enlightened society. Hence my referencing it as the craddle of the modern world - this is where people started thinking out of the box that was/is christianity as secular power.
“Actually I think I said the catholic Church reformed itself as a result of the rise of Protestantism.”
And as I pointed out, this reformation did not move towards a more modern catholisicm; quite the opposite. Luckily, the catholic church started to lose it’s hold in the populace at the same time as it tried to tighten it’s grip.
“Persecuting scientists and other heretics and blasphemers was just a side job.”
I don’t agree on this, and even if I did, it still just shows that the church (religion) was fighting rather than supporting the move toward a more modern and enlightened society…
“At the end of Europe’s religious wars, the Catholic Church was substantially more tolerant and substantially less powerful than it was before and during.”
No and yes.
“Only in Anglicanism, which is closer to a hybrid between actual Protestantism and Catholicism.”
Uh, no… Here’s a typical protestant church: First you have a parochial church council, headed by the local priest. Then you have a deanery, headed by the dean and a council elected from the parochial church councils under it’s mantle. Finally you have the diocese, headed by a bishop. In some countries, you also find a church ministery… It might not be anything like the organisation found in the cathloic church, but it sure ain’t some anarchical anti-organisation.
Pastor, priest… You’re resorting to semantics here! In it’s basic form, a priest is someone who preaches his faith to others. And by naming the many pastors “off the top of your head” you’re also demonstrating how religion (including protestantism) has a much stronger position in the US than in Europe. I can’t name a single priest (vicar, pastor, whatever) like that. Well, I can name one, but that’s because he’s a famous author…
“In fact, they did use scripture to show that Christians were never meant to wield the kind of secular authority that the Catholic Church had assumed.”
That’s not fighting on a religious basis; that’s using the arguments of the opposition against them. I would argue likewise, and I don’t believe in God…
“All the Germanic tribes used the same tribal system, Adam.”
Thank you for explaining the obvious…
“No, not really.”
That’s a matter of interpretation… I am well aware of the concept of serfdom and it’s consequences, but no man was the property of another in the strictest sense - you “just” owed your labour to someone else, with no realistic way of paying your debt. Funny you should mention it, because the church recognized and validated this form of indenture, which was the main reason why it was such a struggle to ban slavery in the 19th century.
“Christianity was perverted by the Eastern and Western Roman Empires long before it reached the masses of Northern Europe, Adam.”
True, but more importantly christianity traditionally became perverted when it’s powerbase in societies became too great. As long as the church was only represented by a missionary priest here and there in an area, the main focus was on the preachings of Jesus…
“Saying “American clergy” in regards to the US of the 19th century is a bit silly, you know? We had about 15 Catholics in the country at the time and they all worked really shitty jobs in a mine in Pennsylvania.”
I was thinking about Bishop John England of Charleston, The Virginia General Assembly, and such…
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav4.htm
“The fact remains that the abolitionists were devout Christians”
And…? 90+% of people in Europe and America were practicing christians during the last few centuries. This does not equal that christianity drove their desire for a more secular, more modern world. This is the very point I’m trying to get across.
“Wasn’t Denmark the last pagan country in Europe too? ”
Probably!
Nah, I’d say Finland would get that title…
“And how would you define culture, then?”
As the combined values of a specified region. Although that’s much too strict a definition, as is your differentiation between past culture and future values… Values are the ideals by which we live our everyday lives. These ideals are defined by our culture. In any way, I see the shape of the modern western world as being a product of our values much more than our culture, if such a distinction MUST be made…
Alas, we’re not going to agree on this. IMO, the Western world exists in it’s present form because, at some point in time, we decided to listen to intelligent people rather than 2000 year old fairytales. We started focusing on what would be beneficial to society while we lived, rather than what would be our fate after we died. In short, secular problems became the focus rather than spiritual ones.
January 29th, 2010 at 11:11 am
[...] posted here: Comment on What happened there! by Craig Share and [...]
January 29th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
Fr. J,
Your statement in 69 post is the thoughts of a very simplistic person who have no idea about the complexity of the conflict between the two parties.
YOU need to hear more from Palestinians and read their books and educate yourself before pointing at others.
The ignorance and arrogance in your statement just goes to show that you only watch your TV and learn from it and have no clue like many Americans who refuses to educate themselves that the problem is just some Islamic terrorists who are hateful to Israel.
How Pathetic
January 29th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Tworset,
You told me one has to develop thick skin to survive on this blog. That’s why I didn’t even bother reading Fr. J’s response once I read that you dismissed it, as I trust your fair and unbiased judgement. I mean you even stood up for Mahmoud the Sandmonkey while he was defecating on Muslims even though you are a Christian for Christ’s sake. It doesn’t get much more balanced than that. And of course, I never read Adam the trolls comments anymore, especially when he speaks when not spoken to. Why depress yourself and read their drivel? I am happy to report high spirits along with 100, 000, 000 other Egyptians after we wiped the floor with the proud Algerian “fouling” team
Algeria sucks so bad..
Funny shit @ 66, thanks it looks like Amir khan did just a good a job of destroying the Israeli Rabi in the ring. Nice post.
January 29th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
(Why do Muslims immediately change the subject and start bashing Israel?)
Why do infidel’s always start bashing Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda when someones head is chopped off or a nursery is blown up? They are just freedom fighters?
(The Jews and Americans are not the Muslims main problems.)
LMAO - Terrorism is not America or the Jews main problem then.
Why should we not support Israel when we see how Muslims mistreat others in their own countries?
Ahh- so you are admitting that Israel is the antagonist to the Muslim world duh! Why should we not support all those who are against the support of such antagonistic trash?
(Why do I not see Muslims protesting when terrorism occurs?)
Because you are a cheap ass who spends his money to go to occupied Palestine instead of going to a Muslim country to see it with your own eyes. A product of Murdoch and Fox news who don’t exactly cover that kinda shit.
(Even this protest was very small.)
If it got any bigger they would have ended up at Cohens house, the ambassador of occupied Palestine in Egypt.
(Much of the conflict in the middle east is not generated by us. )
Oh so what percentage are you admitting to again??
(911 was not an inside job.)
Sure it wasn’t because that is beyond national security and oil resources and maintaining an upper hand as the worlds only super power isnt it?
(Israel isn’t going anywhere and you need to accept that as a fact.)
How could it not be going anywhere if it always existed in your opinion? Oh oh, you mean the occupation ah I get it. That is where you are dead wrong buster. Get a life, evil dies, ignorance perishes, the creator isn’t about to make an exception them. You just wait and see.
(Just today Iran threatened nuclear war, again.)
Hoping, wishing and praying you fools take the bait and attack it the same way Israeli occupation forces instigate the Arab’s to fight back and look like the oppressor’s. That way Iran will get the support of a lot more Muslims.
(Stop the hatred, sit down, and accept reality. )
Let Europe or America house the rejects instead of having them occupy Arab land, get out of my house, respect me, compensate me. Until then, No retreat, No surrender.
Your response simply shows why persecution of Christians continues and why violence is epidemic.
You mean yours does, you are a biased brainwashed bigot with a white picket fence reading into lies. You have no brain and you couldn’t have described better by your mentality, why America sit around and does nothing, and why Palestine is still occupied. How about I shove your head in a toilet and tell you thats life and reality, wanna accept it and start the negotians ha ha!
Long live Palestine
January 29th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
Twosret, you see why nobody is talking about Copts here? You, and Egyptian Copt, condemned and belittled the one person who spoke up in support of Egypt’s Copts in this thread. Maybe the rest of us having been around longer knew how that would play out? If you want to make the plight of Christians in the Arab World an entirely Arab problem that Christians outside the region have no business commenting on, then perhaps you could do all of us non-Arab Christians a favor and also leave us out of the Arab-Israeli conflict? The frequent posts you used to make where you were calling on Western Christians to be more anti-semitic because of the way Israelis were treating Palestinian Christians (according to you) really got under my skin. And now you tell us to but out when its Muslims mistreating Christians in the middle-east. How cute?
January 29th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Adam,
No, I’m trying to explain that the emergence of Protestantism occured in a quarter of western Europe, much less looking at the population, and as such cannot account for the development of modern society.
What a bizarre thing to say. I’m not touching that one. I’ll let you take it up with your college prof
If you throw in philosophy as well, this is pretty much was makes up the basics of a modern enlightened society.
I didn’t throw in philosophy as well
Italy was probably the most corrupt and backwards place on the planet at the time.
And as I pointed out, this reformation did not move towards a more modern catholisicm;
Nor did it need to, since in its weakened state it had much less political influence and had no choice but to become more tolerant of dissenters.
I don’t agree on this, and even if I did, it still just shows that the church (religion) was fighting rather than supporting the move toward a more modern and enlightened society…
And yet you dismissed the very movement that caused the catholic Church to FAIL in its repression….
It might not be anything like the organisation found in the cathloic church, but it sure ain’t some anarchical anti-organisation.
Yes, its more like a community fellowship. And not like an authritarian power structure. We disagree on what, exactly?
Pastor, priest… You’re resorting to semantics here!
It’s not semantics, Adam.
In it’s basic form, a priest is someone who preaches his faith to others.
No, that would be a preacher. A Catholic Priest is something entirely different.
And by naming the many pastors “off the top of your head” you’re also demonstrating how religion (including protestantism) has a much stronger position in the US than in Europe.
Not “including” protestants. Only protestants. Every one I named was/is Protestant.
And I pointed out that the US hasn’t broken away from Christianity the way Europe has in one of my first comments here.
That’s not fighting on a religious basis;
Excuse me? Using scripture to prove the theological validity of your position is not arguing on a religious basis? I don’t even know what to say to that one, Adam.
That’s a matter of interpretation… I am well aware of the concept of serfdom and it’s consequences, but no man was the property of another in the strictest sense…
Do you think the fact that serfs were “owned” by virtually anyone who was from a noble family made them feel better than being owned by a specific individual? Unfree is unfree, Adam.
True, but more importantly christianity traditionally became perverted when it’s powerbase in societies became too great. As long as the church was only represented by a missionary priest here and there in an area, the main focus was on the preachings of Jesus…
And what point was that, in the Western and Eastern Roman Empires? You seem to be claiming that Christianity was better in Northern Europe when the Northern Europeans were still pagans. Not a surprising position for an atheist to have, but there’s no validity to comparing the work of evangelists who were living and working in pagan communities to actual Church doctrine.
The first northern european converts to Christianity were the Vandals and the Goths. They were followers of Arius. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches both declared Arianism to be heresy. And the Goths and Vandals romped on the Eastern and Western empires afterwards. Coincidence? Maybe. My point is that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches tolerated no dissent at a period of time that predates Christianity in Northern Europe by centuries.
And…? 90+% of people in Europe and America were practicing christians during the last few centuries.
I didn’t say “practicing”. I said “devout”. They were abolitionists because they thought God wanted them to be abolitionists.
culture = “As the combined values of a specified region.”
That’s incorrect, by any definition of “culture”.
Although that’s much too strict a definition…
Nope. It’s a wrong definition
..as is your differentiation between past culture and future values…
That wasn’t my differentiation. I differentiated between reality and ideal.
Values are the ideals by which we live our everyday lives. These ideals are defined by our culture. In any way, I see the shape of the modern western world as being a product of our values much more than our culture, if such a distinction MUST be made…
You forgot to state where you think those values come from.
Alas, we’re not going to agree on this. IMO, the Western world exists in it’s present form because, at some point in time, we decided to listen to intelligent people rather than 2000 year old fairytales.
Right. And that was 50 years ago. So there was no Western world prior to WWII, eh?
We started focusing on what would be beneficial to society while we lived, rather than what would be our fate after we died. In short, secular problems became the focus rather than spiritual ones.
And what would be some examples of the great improvements western societies that atheists such as yourself have made? I’ve listed quite a few of the improvements I attribute directly to Christians… perhaps you can return the favor?
January 29th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
re: abolitionists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_the_Republic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmTWVJ_pXBk
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.
I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His day is marching on.
I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Since God is marching on.
He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet;
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free;
[originally …let us die to make men free]
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.
He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.
Christian enough for you, Adam?
January 29th, 2010 at 11:32 pm
Twosret, I have been there. I talked to Christians who said they were being persecuted, their land stolen, and women abused, by Muslims not Jews. To blame long standing persecution of Copts on the current conflict in Israel is disingenuous. When they elected the terrorists of Hamas in Gaza that told us a great deal.
Down, Muslims usually ask me to read something, but they rarely read anything suggested to them. That is why it is no surprise you did not bother to read my response. That is why Muslims always play the blame game. Stub your toe? Blame it on the Jews. Dictator runs your country? Blame it on the Jews. Islamic terrorism increases? Blame it on the Jews. That is why Muslim nations are so backward and refuse to face the facts on issues like Coptic persecution.
Muha, every one of your points could have been made by Osama bin Laden. You are a terrorist. God bless Israel.
Craig, as I said, they don’t want to talk about the Copts. As usual they want to discuss anything other then a Muslim problem. Hence the shift to Israel. That is why I tried to thank those few Muslims who did protest the persecution of Copts. They need support. Btw, Catholicism is a eminently defensible. We did not corrupt Christianity.
January 30th, 2010 at 1:08 am
Fr. J, Twosret is an Egyptian Copt. I don’t understand her position where she seems to be supporting Arab and Muslim agendas at the expense of her own co-religionists, and that’s after she tried to explain it to me directly. I stopped trying. I would appreciate it if she would adopt the same attitude about non-Arab Christians minding their own business when it comes to Israel, though. It’s really not cool for her to play the religion card when it suits her and revoke the right of Christians to speak up when it doesn’t.
Btw, Catholicism is a eminently defensible. We did not corrupt Christianity.
Well, that’s a difference of opinion that still hasn’t been resolved after centuries of trying so it’s unlikely we’d be able to talk things through
January 30th, 2010 at 8:21 pm
Craig, I think it is Stockholm syndrome. I feel for the Copts who are stuck trying to show they are harmless to the Muslim radicals who persecute them. Being weak is their only protection.
January 30th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
Fr. J BINGO
January 30th, 2010 at 10:43 pm
@ Fr. J,
“Muha, every one of your points could have been made by CIA tactician Osama bin Laden. We made him, we are the worlds real terrorists, we fuel the occupation forces of Palestine to further our own interests. That’s what world domination is all about.”
Nuff said, I can’t argue with that
January 30th, 2010 at 11:33 pm
Fr. j I have to agree with Muhammed, residents of Palestine from Gaza to Haifa were ethnically cleansed and pushed into the sea by Jewish terrorists, the bloodlines of those who killed Jesus. You are scum & no different than the spoon fed hype recipients of Adam, Craig, tedders etc. You guys are the real terrorists. Long live Palestine and the Protestant IRA. Israel will fall like South Africa, but in a much worse way.
January 31st, 2010 at 12:05 am
Thats my familys land i dont know why there are european settlers living on my land? What kind of justice is this? They killed my people and took my home and yet we are the ones that are being called terrorists, im not even allowed to go near the where generation of my family grew up, bare in mind a few blocks from where I used to live there is a church that Jesus Christ entered when he was 12 and his mom found him in the church after searching for him, everthing in that area is decreasing and the settelments are increasing and now they are trying to search for a jewish name to call the area.
-Shatila
January 31st, 2010 at 2:27 am
Shatila, Muhamad & Tworet I feel your pain. I am sorry for the state of denial that people like From Fr. J are in, I was once just as blind but have since opened up my eyes. Anyone who open mindedly researches the facts and is still in support of Israel, becomes a blind hypocrite and a sorry excuse for a human being. Israel is a facade, clearly an apartheid state inhabited by a relentless spat of over zealous sufferers inflicting conscience and tactical displacement to a people who had no chance. Before palestine was decided for Zionism, the whole ideal behind it was a dominant majority Jewish state at any cost and any mean necessary.
———
BASED On Declassified Israeli Documents & Personal Diaries
The most important of Zionist pillars is the creation of a “Jewish state” where Jews could constitute a majority, which by no means was restricted to Palestine (British controlled Uganda was seriously considered by Theodor Herzl). Despite relentless British assistance to expedite and facilitate the immigration of the persecuted European Jews to Palestine, Jews in Palestine increased from under 8% in 1914 to 33% as of 1947, but they only owned under 7% of the total land.
Because of the demographic makeup and the high rate of land ownership among the Palestinian people, it was deemed necessary by Zionists to forcibly “transfer” and dispossess the Palestinian people, otherwise, Zionism could have never been realized, at least not in Palestine. As early as the mid-1920s, many of the early Zionists recognized that the realization of Zionism constituted an injustice upon the Palestinian people, but they had concluded that Jewish justice is greater. This point of view was eloquently articulated by Ze’ev Jabotinsky (the founder of the Israeli political Right), who wrote in 1926:
” … the tragedy lies in the fact the there is a collision here between two truths …. but our justice is greater. The Arabs is culturally backward, but his instinctive patriotism is just as pure and noble as our own; it can not be bought, it can only be curbed … force majeure.” (Righteous Victims, p. 108)
Related Links
Map: Distribution of Palestinian and Zionist land ownership as of 1945
Map: Population distribution as of 1946
Zionist FAQ: Isn’t true that Palestine was empty and mostly inhabited with nomadic people?
Zionist FAQ: Isn’t true that Palestine was a destitute place until Israeli Zionists made its desert bloom?
Famous Quotes
To bring a maximum number of Jews to Palestine’s shores, (as of 1931) Ben-Gurion was prepared to
“sup with the devil,” so he hardly would have shunned a tactic of dissimulation for moral reasons. (Shabtai Teveth, p. xiii, Preface)
As WWI was winding down, Ben-Gurion clearly stated his objective to make Palestine (including Trans-Jordan) a land with a Jewish majority. He said in November 1917:
“Within the next twenty years, we must have a Jewish majority in Palestine.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 43)
Ben-Gurion eloquently articulated the fundamental goals of Zionism to Auni Abdul Hadi, a prominent Palestinian politician before 1948, as the following:
“Our ultimate goal is the independence of the Jewish people in Palestine, on both sides of the Jordan, not as a minority but as a community of several million. In my opinion, it is possible to create over a period of forty years, if Transjordan was included, a community of four million Jews in addition to an Arab community of two million.” (Israel: A History, p. 74)
and he also added:
“we did not wish the [Palestinian] Arabs to ’sacrifice’ Palestine. The Palestinian Arabs would not be sacrificed so that Zionism be realized. According to our conception of Zionism, we were neither desirous nor capable of building our future in Palestine at the expense of the [Palestinian] Arab.” (Israel: A History, p. 75)
As Ben-Gurion met George Antonius in the mid-1930s (one of the few Palestinians that Ben-Gurion had contacts with, who was an advisor to al-Mufti al-Hajj Amin al-Husseini), he suggested that Arabs should help the Zionist Jews to expand the borders of their future sovereign “Jewish state” to include areas (inclusive of the Western Jordan) under French Mandate, such as southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights. Sarcastically, Mr. Antonius answered:
“So, you propose that what England did not give you [according to the Balfour Declaration), you will get from us." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 162)
According to Ben-Gurion, Antonius had complained about Zionists who "want to bring to Palestine the largest number of Jews possible, without taking [Palestinian] Arabs into consideration at all. With this type,” said Antonius, “it is impossible to come to an understanding. They want a 100% Jewish state, and the Arabs will remain in their shadow.” By the end of their talk, Antonius could, with reason, conclude that Ben-Gurion belonged precisely to this category of Zionists. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 163)
According to Ben-Gurion, Palestine was a “matter of life and death” for the Jews. “Even pogroms in Germany or Poland, and in Palestine, we prefer the pogroms here.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 163)
As immigration of European Jewry to Palestine increased between 1931-1935 (which doubled Palestine’s Jewish population), Chancellor Judah Leon Magnes (the president of the Hebrew University who favored a bi-national state where Palestinians and Jews live with equal rights) asked Ben-Gurion to make concessions to Palestinians over Jewish immigration by 1935, Ben-Gurion explicitly told Magnes this:
“The difference between me and you is that you are ready to sacrifice immigration for peace, while I am not, though peace is dear to me. And even if I was prepared to make concessions, the Jews of Poland and Germany would not be, because they have no other option. For them immigration comes before peace.” Ben-Gurion left no doubt that he identified, heart and soul, with this ordering of priorities.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 159)
And in 1937, Ben-Gurion emphasized that the quest for Zionism should seek peace with the Palestinians ONLY as a mean to realize Zionism, not an ultimate goal. He stated:
“We do not seek an agreement with the [Palestinian] Arabs in order to secure the peace. Of course we regard peace as an essential thing. It is impossible to build up the country in a state of permanent warfare. But peace for us is a means, and not an end. The end is the fulfillment of Zionism in its maximum scope. Only for this reason do we need peace, and do we need an agreement.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 168)
The concept of a “Jewish Majority” in Palestine is central for the realization of Zionism. This point was eloquently articulated by Ben-Gurion who stated in 1929:
“A Jewish majority is not Zionism’s last station, but it is a very important station on the route to Zionism’s political triumph. It will give our security and presence a sound foundation, and allow us to concentrate masses of Jews in this country and the region.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 103)
Soon after the outbreak of the first Intifada in 1936, Ben-Gurion articulated the Palestinians fears when he wrote:
“The Arabs fear of our power is intensifying, [Palestinians] see exactly the opposite of what we see. It doesn’t matter whether or not their view is correct…. They see [Jewish] immigration on a giant scale …. they see the Jews fortify themselves economically .. They see the best lands passing our hands. They see England identify with Zionism. ….. [Arabs are] fighting dispossession … The fear is not of losing land, but of losing homeland of the Arab people, which others want to turn it into the homeland of the Jewish people. There is a fundamental conflict. We and they want the same thing: We both want Palestine ….. By our very presence and progress here, [we] have matured the [Arab] movement.” (Righteous Victims, p. 136)
On April 16, 1936, Ben-Gurion informed Mapai party that he had reached the following conclusion about Jewish-Palestinian relations:
“. . . . there is no chance for an understanding with the [Palestinian] Arabs unless we first reach an understanding with the British, by which we will become a preponderant force in Palestine. What can drive the [Palestinian] Arabs to a mutual understanding with us? . . . Facts [meaning achieving Jewish majority through immigration and increased military strength] Only after we manage to establish a great Jewish fact in this country . . . only then will the precondition for discussion with the [Palestinian] Arabs be met.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 155)
In August 1937, the 20th Zionist Congress rejected the Peel Commission proposed partition plan, since the area allotted to the “Jewish state” was smaller than expected. However, the concept of partitioning Palestine into two states was accepted as a launching pad for future expansions and in order to have unfettered Jewish immigration. In September 1938, Ben-Gurion explained why he advocated partitioning the country now:
“The only reason that we agreed to discuss the [Peel commission proposed] partition plan,” Ben-Gurion wrote Moshe Sharett, “is mass immigration. Not in the future, and not according to abstract formula, but large immigration now.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 184)
and in October 1938, he wrote to his children that :
“I don’t regard a state in part of Palestine as the final aim of Zionism, but as a mean toward that aim.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 188)
and in September 1937, he stated to a group of American Jewish labour leaders in New York:
“the borders [of the Jewish state] will not be fixed for eternity.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 188)
similarly, he also stated to his son Amos in October 1937 that a “Jewish state” in part of Palestine was:
“not the end, but only the beginning.” Its establishment would give a “powerful boost to our historic efforts to redeem the country in its entirety.” For the “Jewish state” would have “outstanding army– I have no doubt that our army will be among the world’s outstanding–and so I am certain that we won’t be constrained from settling in the rest of the country, either by mutual agreement and understanding with our Arab neighbors, or by some other way. . . . . I still believe . . . . that after we become numerous and strong, the Arabs will understand that it is best for them to strike an alliance with us, and to benefit from our help, providing they allow us by their good will to settle in all parts of Palestine.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 188)
regarding settling the Negev desert which was allotted to the Palestinian state according to the Peel Commission, Ben-Gurion stated:
“It is very possible that in exchange for our financial, military, organizational and scientific assistance, the [Palestinian] Arabs will agree that we develop and build the Negev [which as of 2002, the Negev is still mostly populated by Palestinian-Israeli citizens]. It is also possible that they won’t agree. No people always behaves according to logic, common sense, and best interests.” If the Palestinian Arabs “act according to sterile nationalist emotion,” and reject the idea of Jewish settlement, preferring that the Negev remain barren, then the Jewish army would act. “Because we cannot stand to see large areas of unsettled land capable of absorbing thousands of Jews remain empty, or to see Jews not return to their country because the [Palestinian] Arabs say that there is not enough room for them and us.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 188-189) It is worth noting that the Negev is still a barren desert, and under populated by Israeli Jews.
During a lecture in Tel-Aviv in front of Mapai activists in 1938, Ben-Gurion divided the realization of the “historic aim of the Jewish state” into two stages. The first stage, which would last ten to fifteen years, he called “the period of building and laying foundations.” This would prepare the state for the second stage, “the period of expansion.” The goal of both stages was the “gathering of the exiles in all of Palestine.” And so “from the moment the state is established, it must calculate its actions with an eye toward this distant goal.”
Despite of all the Zionist expansionist policies, the mass majority of Zionists and Jews (under the influence of effective propaganda campaigns) wonder why Palestinians rejected the UN proposed partition plan in 1947? Click here for a detailed response.
In May 1944 (during a closed deliberation) Ben-Gurion continued to express without restrain his conviction that Arab transfer was inherent in the very conception of Zionism, he said:
“Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the [Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are [Palestinian] Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve their condition and not the contrary.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 159)
Ben-Gurion wrote in his diary on November 30, 1947 after the UN vote to partition Palestine into two states:
“In my heart, there was joy mixed with sadness: joy that the nations at last acknowledged that we are a nation with a state, and sadness that we lost half of the country, Judea and Samaria, and , in addition, that we [would] have [in our state] 400,000 [Palestinian] Arabs.” (Righteous Victims, p. 190)
On February 8, 1948 Ben-Gurion also stated to the Mapai Council:
“From your entry into Jerusalem, through Lifta, Romema [East Jerusalem Palestinian neighborhood]. . . there are no [Palestinian] Arab. One hundred percent Jews. Since Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, it has not been Jewish as it is now. In many [Palestinian] Arab neighborhoods in the west one sees not a single [Palestinian] Arab. I do not assume that this will change. . . . What had happened in Jerusalem. . . . is likely to happen in many parts of the country. . . in the six, eight, or ten months of the campaign there will certainly be great changes in the COMPOSITION of the population in the country.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 180-181)
In a speech addressing the Central Committee of the Histadrut on December 30, 1947, Ben-Gurion said:
“In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority …. There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%.” (Benny Morris p. 28 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176)
In a speech addressing the Zionist Action Committee on April 6, 1948, 1947, Ben-Gurion said:
“We will not be able to win the war if we do not, during the war, populate upper and lower, eastern and western Galilee, the Negev and Jerusalem area ….. I believe that war will also bring in its wake a great change in the distribution of [Palestinian] Arab population.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 181)
In 1934 Ze’ev Jabotinsky introduced for his youth movement followers the Betar Oath:
“I devote my life to the rebirth of the Jewish State, with a Jewish majority, on both sides of the Jordan.” (Israel: A History, p. 76)
While drafting the Balfour Declaration, the British Prime Minister Lloyd George summed up the British Government view at the time:
“There can be no doubt as to what the [Imperial War] Cabinet then had in their minds. It was not their idea that a Jewish State should be set up immediately by the Peace Treaty without reference to the wishes of the majority of the inhabitants. On the other hand, it was contemplated that, when the time arrived for according representative institutions to Palestine, if the Jews had meanwhile responded to the opportunity afforded them and had become a definite majority of the inhabitants, then Palestine would thus become a Jewish Commonwealth. The notion that Jewish immigration would have to be artificially restricted in order that the Jews should be a permanent minority never entered the head of anyone engaged in framing the policy. That would have been regarded as unjust and as a fraud on the people to whom we were appealing”.
The implication is clear - the achievement of a Jewish majority would assure the establishment of a Jewish State. The fundamental question of the rights of the Palestinians themselves did not enter into the picture. (UN: The Origins And Evolution Of Palestine Problem, section II)
While the peace conference was convening at Versailles in early 1919, Chaim Weizmann was asked about his understanding of the “national home” referred to the Balfour Declaration, he answered:
“the country [Palestine] should be Jewish in the same way that France is French and Britain is British.” (One Palestine Complete, p. 117)
In April 28, 1930 Menachem Ussishkin stated in an address to journalists in Jerusalem:
“We must continually raise the demand that our land be returned to our possession …. If there are other inhabitants there, they must be transferred to some other place. We must take over the land. We have a great and nobler ideal than preserving several hundred thousands of [Palestinian] Arabs fellahin [peasants].” (Righteous Victims, p. 141)
On May 19, 1936, Menachem Ussishkin declared:
“What we can demand today is that all Transjordan be included in the Land of Israel. . . on condition that Transjordan would be either be made available for Jewish colonization or for the resettlement of those [Palestinian] Arabs, whose lands [in Palestine] we would purchase. Against this, the most conscientious person could not argue . . . For the [Palestinian] Arabs of the Galilee, Transjordan is a province . . . this will be for the resettlement of Palestine’s Arabs. This the land problem. . . . Now the [Palestinian] Arabs do not want us because we want to be the rulers. I will fight for this. I will make sure that we will be the landlords of this land . . . . because this country belongs to us not to them . . . ” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 51)
In Jun of 1938, Moshe Sharett stressed the importance of the period of transition into a Jewish state:
“The critical problem is a parliamentarism in the Jewish state and in the transition period to it …. it is necessary that an institution of government should be set up, and one of its functions will be to prepare the parliamentary regime. In this transition period also we will know who are the [Palestinian] Arabs who would agree to remain as citizens of the Jewish state and their number would certainly be much smaller than we think today. By the reduction of the [Palestinian] Arabs on the one hand and Jewish immigration in the transition period on the other, we will ensure an absolute Hebrew majority in a parliamentary regime.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 108-109)
On March 20, 1941 Yosef Weitz was nearby Mishmar Ha’emek, he recorded:
“I am increasingly consumed by despair. The Zionist idea is the answer to the Jewish question in the Land of Israel; only in the land of Israel, but not that the [Palestinian] Arabs should remain a majority. The complete evacuation of the country from its other inhabitants and handing it over to the Jewish people is the answer.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, 132)
——-
Shatila, you took the words right out of my mouth ENOUGH SAID!
January 31st, 2010 at 3:08 pm
uh, Adam, we were the first to abolish slavey, our Revolutionnaires !
but Napoleon retablished it in our Antilles islands, it’s also why Haitians fought Napoleon (with Jefferson assistance that opened american harbours to the french ships) , mind you they were equals to the Nationals since 1793 (I believe).
January 31st, 2010 at 3:25 pm
I recall that catholic countries made the greatest discoveries, one was America, (Italy, Spain explorations, Portugal discovered many routes to Asia whereas Anglo-saxons were only followers
February 1st, 2010 at 6:07 am
Down,
Were you using the old “Christ Killers” anti-semitic trope there? How cute! But, ultimately not so original.
And as we discussed previously, since you are against double standards, as you are (reasonably) upset about Palestinians who were dispossessed of their homes and property, so you are also upset about Jews of the Arab countries who were dispossessed of their homes and property. And I know that just as you advocate for compensation of one group, you advocate just as strongly for compensation of the other. To do otherwise would be a … double standard.
Muhammad, I’m always curious. When you talk about occupied Palestine, are you talking about Ramallah? Or Tel Aviv? This is actually a serious, non-snarky question.
bj
February 1st, 2010 at 7:23 am
MC @ 86:
I didn’t know that before now - it lasted all of 2 years though, so in reality the practical implementation was probably never launched. Still, you’ve got a point… Let me clarify then: Denmark/Norway was the first European country to permanently outlaw the transatlantic slavetrade. We didn’t free the existing slaves until som 45 years later, though…
February 1st, 2010 at 7:31 am
Craig @ 77:
Oh dear…
My eyes, my eyes! I’m blind!!!
February 1st, 2010 at 7:55 am
I recall that catholic countries made the greatest discoveries…
Not sure how you are trying to tie in imperialism with cultural developments, MC, but I’m pretty sure the pagan vikings beat Christians of all types to the new world by quite a bit
February 1st, 2010 at 8:10 am
MuHaMMaD @ 74:
I’ll respond to you, since DWDS’ and Twos’ posts @ 72 and 73 present no arguments whatsoever; only the usual “I’m-right-you’re-wrong-so-there” rhetoric…
“They are just freedom fighters?”
Are they? Who have taken away their freedom? Let’s see…
Hamas are in control of their own Palestinian territory, violently ousting any opposition within their ranks. They’re - by their own reckoning - at war with Israel, and are launching continued attacks over the border towards a sovereign nation. Freedom fighters? Nope.
Hizbollah is a shiite organisation hailing from Libanon. Libanon used to support Syria in it’s military attacks on Israel in a war that the Arab side declared and started. Israel, being the stronger part, naturally invaded Libanon to stop these aggressions, but have since removed themselves. Hizbollah, however, keep aunching continued attacks over the border towards a sovereign nation. Freedom fighters? Nope.
Al Qaeda is a loosely defined organisation, formed in Afghanistan but with roots in Saudi. Their first act was to help oust the Soviets from Afghanistan, but since then they have made it their goal to force the removal of all non-muslims from “muslim nations”, regardless of historical ties or anything else, actually. Al Qaeda are operating without any government support and are threatening attacks within the borders of pretty much any sovereign nation on the planet. Freddom fighters? Nope.
“LMAO - Terrorism is not America or the Jews main problem then”
This argument is not reciprocal… Hitler’s biggest problem wasn’t the other countries in Europe in 1938, but the opposite was certainly true. America and the Jews ARE not the muslims’ main problem; lack of education, lack of democracy and lack of respect for others are… That, and religion, of course!
“Ahh- so you are admitting that Israel is the antagonist to the Muslim world”
Uh, no - He did no such thing. You can support someone who is under attack, you know…?
“Because you are a cheap ass who spends his money to go to occupied Palestine instead of going to a Muslim country to see it with your own eyes.”
An utterly unsensical answer, if this can even be called an answer… Please, show us the many Muslim anti-terrorist protests around the world. Please show me pictures of Muslims taking to the street in protest when an Israeli public bus is blown to smithereens…
“How could it not be going anywhere if it always existed in your opinion?”
What part of the sentence do you not understand? Israel isn’t going anywhere, as in “no amount of Muslim terror is going to make Israel disappear”…
“the same way Israeli occupation forces instigate the Arab’s to fight back and look like the oppressor’s.”
How exactly do they force the Arabs to fight back? Do they send them emails telling them they’ll carpetbomb Gaza if they DON’T send rockets across the border? Man, what universe are you living in?!?
“That way Iran will get the support of a lot more Muslims.”
Yes, ’cause Iran is SUCH a pleasant place to live and a wonderful role-model for governments all over the middle east, not to mention the world. I can easily see why Muslims all over the world would LOVE to live under the conditions that we see in Iran… In fact, I’m sure we ALL would!
“Let Europe or America house the rejects instead of having them occupy Arab land, get out of my house, respect me, compensate me. Until then, No retreat, No surrender.”
No thanks, we’ve already got huge muslim minorities in our countries, and I’m sad to say they fill up nicely at the bottom end of society. Oh, you mean the Israelis…? What Arab land? Arab land is here:
http://www.udel.edu/Philosophy/afox/PHIL204/arabia5.gif .
I suggest YOU get out of occupied land! Until then, no retreat, no surrender.
“How about I shove your head in a toilet and tell you thats life and reality, wanna accept it and start the negotians ha ha!”
Considering you’ve forced the situation on yourself and that the alternative is to DROWN in the toilet, I’d say accepting and negotiating would be the smart move…
February 1st, 2010 at 10:12 am
so you are also upset about Jews of the Arab countries who were dispossessed of their homes and property. NO! Unlike Japanese Americans who were rounded up and imprisoned and/or expelled during the US war with japan. Jewish citizens of Arab nations became traitor and spied on their own countries, hence were booted out. It was an inevitable security protocol.
Therefore no compensation is due. However, as the British academic boycott of Israel shows, compensation for stolen Palestinian land which continues and White house policy to back down against these DOUBLE STANDARDS, compensation for crimes will not start until the crimes themselves stop. Don’t avoid the facts just because Israel is getting away with murder supported by the West where Jewish banking centers are located. Although understandable after the holocaust I guess : ( Standing up for justice has nothing to do with antisemitism. Before Moses entered the holy land, there were people living there a people have pointed out here. These people are genetically related to the Paletinians just as much as they are related to Jews of non European origin who lived there shortly after. Even if this was not the case, all the hate and arrogance in the world can not acoount for what Israel is doing.
Ramalla and the outskirts of Tel Aviv included, Wet bank, Haifa, Jaffa are all occupied, ethnically cleansed parts of Palestine? This is actually a serious and non snarky statement.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:03 am
Aaron thank you, God bless your soul. This is what we have been saying for YEARS here to almost no avail, but it is totally worth it when we reach just a few people like your sel, free from the complicity and bias.
See this video of a Jewish son of Auswitch disgusted by what the Israeli’s are inflicting on the Palestinians and, the utter contempt for their suffering. Welcome back to the light my friend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNQSV3BBtZ4&feature=player_embedded
February 1st, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Troll @ comment 92 - Only speak when sspoken to, never mind the convoluted symantics.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:50 pm
aaron @ 93:
“Jewish citizens of Arab nations became traitor and spied on their own countries”
Yes, every single one of them became traitors and spies, right down to the smallest toddler… And you can’t see how completely deranged that viewpoint is?!? Not to mention that by your own twisted argumentation, the Israelis can say the exact same thing about every non-jewish citizen of Israel and you’ve just legitimized it… See how that reference to double standards further down in your post comes back to bite you? It saddens me to see people who cannot even grasp the simplest of logic! Obviously, that goes for you too, MuHaMMaD…
February 1st, 2010 at 12:54 pm
MuHaMMaD @ 95:
It comes as no surprise to me that you have a god-complex. Neither does it come as a surprise that plain english comes across as convoluted sEmantics to you…
Sorry, I find myself unable to grant your wish - you are going to have to contend with me correcting you when you’re in the wrong, which of course is most of the time!
February 1st, 2010 at 5:00 pm
Yes, every single one of them became traitors and spies, right down to the smallest toddler… And you can’t see how completely deranged that viewpoint is?!?
I bet he’d be able to get it of his whole extended family was rounded and deported from whatever western country they have sought refuge in for his idiotic rantings and his support of terrorism on the internet. Of course, him being him, he wouldn’t admit that he understood the parallel.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:37 pm
uh Adam do the calcul, Haiti was the mainand the richest island, that Napoleon tried to subjugte and finally resigned in 1804, so that makes more than a couple of years !
February 1st, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Craig
the Viking didn’t lave their marks then, so they can’t be acknoledged as Amrerica civilisationners
otherwise, some new writings also say that Chineses discovered America before Christophe Colombus
February 1st, 2010 at 8:42 pm
uh, sorry typo “didn’t leave” was ment
February 1st, 2010 at 8:48 pm
#91 Craig
You are right about the vikings - but maybe they find it inconvenient to teach about pagan discoveries in catholic schools?
February 1st, 2010 at 8:51 pm
the Viking didn’t lave their marks then…
Same could be said of the French :p
…so they can’t be acknoledged as Amrerica civilisationners
Almost sounds like you think the vikings were civilized!
otherwise, some new writings also say that Chineses discovered America before Christophe Colombus
I haven’t read that, but if one considers that the “native americans” are not indigenous to the Americas, but rather crossed the Bering Strait during the last two ice ages than I suppose that is technically true, although China did not exist as a nation-state at that time.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Marianne, just saw your comment! I don’t think it’s a “Catholic” thing so much as Europeans preferring to pretend things like this didn’t actually happen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_the_Red
Erik the Red’s parents had to flee Norway because of “some killings” as The Saga of Erik the Red recounts. The family settled in western Iceland. The Icelanders later sentenced Erik to a three-year exile for several murders around the year 982. According to The Saga of Erik the Red, his neighbour Thorgest borrowed a shovel and when it did not come back to Erik, he sought an explanation. When Thorgest refused to return it, Erik stole the shovel back. In the ensuing chase, he killed Thorgest. A second crime laid at Erik’s door occurred when he insisted upon revenge for the deaths of his slaves who had “accidentally started a landslide” on Valthjof’s farm. Valthjof murderously punished the slaves for this misfortune. Erik did not take kindly to this and so slew Valthjof. The Icelanders eventually convicted Erik of these murders and banished him from Iceland. This event led him and a group of followers to travel to the lands nearly 500 miles west of Iceland.
Erik the Red was the first European to fully explore Greenland. He brought approximately 500 settlers with him to Greenland, in the famous Viking longboats. The settlers faced a number of trials, such as a population explosion followed by a quick decrease in population.
A great explorer! And his son, Leif Erikson, continued the family tradition by exploring North America, though I’m not sure how many of his neighbors he killed in the process.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:19 pm
Fr. J,
Since you are so much into Coptic rights, why is America (if it is your country) is supporting Saudi Arabia and bowing and kissing them, when we know very well how Wahabisim affected the Middle East with extreme ideology, Back in the 40’s and 50’s Egyptians lived in peace Muslim and Christian alike.
Why does America support the dictator Mubarak and his likes who approves of persecution under the nose of the American administration.
If you can’t explain why Bush kiss the A$#$ of Saudis and Obama bows to them please don’t waste my time to respond.
Why do you want the Palestinians to love America when the rocket that demolish their home is a gift from America?
Think before you answer please.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:22 pm
““Muha, every one of your points could have been made by CIA tactician Osama bin Laden. We made him, we are the worlds real terrorists, we fuel the occupation forces of Palestine to further our own interests. That’s what world domination is all about.””
Where is Osama?
February 1st, 2010 at 11:27 pm
bj,
As we have discussed before many times on this blog
The fact that there were innocent Jewish families who were deported from some Arab countries is unfair but has nothing to do with PALESTINIANS
A comparison like this is unacceptable as the Palestinians should never pay the price for other Arab countries faults.
A comparison like this justify the injustice done to Palestinians and occupying their land.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:31 pm
Craig,
I condemned the attacks on innocent Copts like I do with the innocent Palestinians, have been trying to find a protest in my area and was disgusted by the vicious act.
Unlike you, I know a little about Egypt growing up and seeing the change of moderate Egypt to an extreme Egypt funded by religious nuts from Saudi and other countries.
The countries that you the “real” American support by voting for presidents who are kissing their butts.
Got it ? or shall I repeat?
February 1st, 2010 at 11:43 pm
Fr. J,
Let me ask you this question. Have you asked in Egypt the muslims how they feel about Copts? did it occur to you that some Copts are also hateful to Muslims and do shameful acts under the name of Christ?
February 1st, 2010 at 11:49 pm
Aaron,
There were some Egyptian Jewish who did spy but the rest were innocent and were good Egyptians who lived peacefully. That’s my 2 cents.
February 2nd, 2010 at 2:16 am
Please note that twosret’s opinions are hers and hers only By no means does she speak for the vast majority of Copts. I personally know hundreds of Copts and have never met one who shares her views. Twosret, it’s almost as if you are more concerned/vested in Palestinians and their issues than the disaster that is Egypt - and you’re Coptic! I haven’t totally figured it out in the years that I’ve been reading this blog. Sorry two.
February 2nd, 2010 at 3:15 am
Egypeter,
There is nothing to apologize about. You have hundreds that shares my views I have hundreds that shares mine. We can’t all have the same experience you know. Plus, the whole topic changed into Palestinian and Israeli again and again. Why don’t you point at the people who changed the topic long before I posted? I have 5 posts of a total of 111 posts.
February 2nd, 2010 at 3:16 am
correction
You have hundreds that shares your views
February 2nd, 2010 at 3:31 am
Interesting read about the Egyptian Jewish community in the past 20 years.
http://www.cecisibony.com/2009/04/the-egyptian-jewish-community/
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:13 am
APPLAUD! - Tworset @ 105, exactly my friend. Let him try and explain that one. Also Tworset, since I will not engage people who only see things as black or white, why don’t you point out to Craig that Bush kissed Saudi butt more than any other president in US history.
Thank you Muhammad, for the prior warning of the likes of Craig, Adam and whoever tedders is. Adam’s trying to put words into my mouth just shows how desperate he is and how right we are and what convoluted thinking he really has. Of course he knows that not all Jews had become spies toddlers lol, but their parents were warned and when one is warned and continues to blatantly break the law, then one must expect that the result will be that they are removed (ie California penal code: 3 strikes and your out - behind bars for life). It is really pointless even trying to argue with these supporters of mass terrorism. Hezbollah and Hamas are irrelevant compared to them, that is why they are so appropriately called the resistance. Americans abhorred the communists of the late USSR, but as a resistance when they defeated the Nazi’s they were respected and hailed as heroic by Americans. The same with Bin Laden who fought the Russians, they were respected and hailed by the Americans as freedom fighters, even though the mujahideen resistance considered the Americans infidels. Like Finkelstein said, Israel must suffer a massive defeat first in order for the terms of peace to be dictated. Such was nearly the case in the October 6, 1973 yom kippor war.
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:29 am
MC @ 99:
http://www.nlj.org.jm/docs/slave_trade_chronology.htm
France passses initial abolition laws in 1794. These do not, however, outlaw the slave trade itself…
http://etymonline.com/columns/frenchslavery.htm
In any case, we outlawed the slave trade in 1792, two years before the first french flirtation with emancipation…
@ 100:
“Viking didn’t lave their marks then”
True, we did not eradicate whole nations with smallpocks, etc…
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:31 am
Craig @ 103:
“Almost sounds like you think the vikings were civilized!”
We were! We had the highest level of equal rights for women in Europe at the time, and Iceland had the first non-greek democracy (of sorts) in the world…
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:53 am
Aaron @ 115:
“Adam’s trying to put words into my mouth”
So, a direct quote is now “putting words in your mouth”, is it? Could you explain to me where you learned this sort of logic? I mean, your view on the world is totally understandable given this twisted way of thinking, but where on earth did you pick it up?!?
“Of course he knows that not all Jews had become spies”
Yes, of course I know - the problem is that you obviously don’t!
“but their parents were warned and when one is warned and continues to blatantly break the law,”
And ALL grown up Jews were warned but decided to spy on their repsective countries… ALL! How on earth do you come to this conclussion?!? And even if we accept this preposterous claim, you’ve just given Israel carte blanche to do the same to every grown-up non-jewish Israeli citizen…! Can you seriously not comprehend how daft that argument is???
“It is really pointless even trying to argue with these supporters of mass terrorism. Hezbollah and Hamas are irrelevant compared to them, that is why they are so appropriately called the resistance.”
Would you care to elaborate on these strange utterings? We don’t support terrorism; we support the right of the legitimate state of Israel to defend itself against foreign aggression, including (temporary) occupation of land from it’s opponents. We also (most of us) condemn the illegal colonialisation of land by the state of Israel. Hizbollah and Hamas are irrelevant compared to whom? Only extremist nutcases refer to Hizbollah and Hamas as resistance groups.
“Americans abhorred the communists of the late USSR, but as a resistance when they defeated the Nazi’s they were respected and hailed as heroic by Americans. The same with Bin Laden who fought the Russians, they were respected and hailed by the Americans as freedom fighters, even though the mujahideen resistance considered the Americans infidels.”
And not only the Americans… Most Europeans as well. It’s called choosing the lesser of two evils. During WW2, the communists helped fight the very real threat of fascist Germany and it’s allies. After WW2, the colonialist U.S.S.R. was the greatest threat to world peace, and it was considered worthwhile to support local dictators if it meant that the influence of the U.S.S.R. was contained. After the fall of Soviet Russia, the balance has shifted. Now, the greatest threat lies with smaller, despotic regimes supporting terrorist actions around the world. In that light, supporting non-democratic but anti-terrorist governments like the Saudi royal family is the lesser of two evils, and it also works to slowly but surely inject more and more modern thinking into these backward regimes.
“Israel must suffer a massive defeat first in order for the terms of peace to be dictated.”
If that is the case, peace in the ME is a looooong way off, and guess who’s gonna suffe rin the mean time? Here’s a hint: It’s NOT gonna be the Jews…
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:01 am
Craig
http://www.1421heresy.info/Home/Thesis/index.html
uh you had a Huguenot nose in your grand family
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:43 am
Adam, from your 2n link:
“If it had not been for British pressure, the slave trade might still be tolerated in France”
If that isn’t a partisan and bias party, I’m goin to become a sister :p
idem for the treatment of the slaves, one should remember how the Brits treated their war prisonners (Americans and French) in confined hulks, so I guess that the Brits slaves hadn’t a better treatment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_ship
Now, Napoleon retablished slavery in 1802, and reabolished it in 1815. Though Slavery was completly abolished in 1848
In between, Louis XVIII made a decreat to forbit slaves trade in 1817, from there it was illegal, though some clandestine expeditions happened, but not as a habit
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:47 am
http://www.herodote.net/histoire/evenement.php?jour=18480427
http://dp.mariottini.free.fr/esclavage/france-negriere/france-negriere.htm
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:02 pm
MC, I’m not arguing about the french intentions; I’m just pointing out that the Danes WERE the first to outlaw the slave trade, if only by a few years… I don’t think any of our nations has anything on each other when it comes to the (mal)treatment of slaves - we were all pretty bad!
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:47 pm
MuHaMMaD @ 121:
“the status of a troll”
A troll? Well, let’s se…
“a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community”
Sorry, but that fits YOU and your non-argumentative compatriots like a glove!
The next few sentences are alternately incoherent, inaccurate, untrue, unfounded and overall makes very little sence = trollish behaviour.
Let me just clarify once more, and this is (again) a direct quote from Aaron…
“Jewish citizens of Arab nations became traitor and spied on their own countries”
Now, he doesn’t say “a few” or “some” or “most” or anything like that… He says “Jewish citizens of Arab nations”; this can only be understood in one way. Now, if he meant something else, he’s welcome to point out his grammatical error and correct himself… Your “witness” to the opposite just demonstrates your own limited grammar skills, nothing more.
Oh well, at least you describe your view on my reaction as being ATYPICAL- I guess I can take that as a compliment, however wrong the basic premisis is…!
“therefore hindering his affinity to lean to the extreme left”
Huh? My affinity to lean to the extreme left? Where on earth have you come up with that idea?!?
I’m liberal (meaning right-wing in non-american lingo), not socialist…
“Israel is bad but the Arabs are worse, therefore I make my case that although I don’t fully support the atrocities the Israeli’s are committing (using the word temporarily) I am obliged to do so temporarily in order support the lesser of 2 evils, namely Arabs.”
And you find this problematic how? Is your world really so black and white that you cannot find any faults with people or nations you support? Indeed, with all people and nations? If that is the case, I’m truly sorry for you; your mind works at kindergarten level, and I’m not sure you’ll ever work your way up to a higher understanding of things…
“Hence Craig and Adam always being at odds but only uniting in the case to arrive at the same conclusion; namely western domination of the Arabs.”
Craig and I have differing views on many subjects; not all that curious considering where we come from and the difference in the mindsets of Europeans and Americans… This doesn’t mean that we cannot see eye to eye on conflicts such as the Israeli-Palestinian one. I’m pretty sure that Craig, like me, see no need for western “domination” of the Arabs. Why would we?
“X Nazi Germany and X imperialist Japan are offering the world today after suffering devastating defeats. South Africa is another case of political defeat from world opinion.”
Nazi Germany saw various peoples as sub-humans to be eradicated, and started a war to increase their territory - this evoked the ire of the modern world. Pre-WW2 Japan saw pretty much anyone else as sub-humans to be used as slave labour, and started a war to increase their territory - this evoked the ire of the modern world. South Africa saw black citizens as second rate citizens with diminshed rights - this evoked the ire of the modern world.
Now, Israel is a nation under constant and continued attack from people who have no respect for it’s right to exist (and, incidentally, see every non-muslim as second rate citizens with diminshed rights). In this struggle, Israel is taking some liberties with the national borders, drawing stern criticism, but seeing as how the Palestinians are the ones who resemble your 3 examples the most in this conflict, they naturally evoke the most ire from the modern world.
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:53 pm
@ Adam accusing his accusers of exactly what he has been causght red handedly doing LMAO @ black and white
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Hi guys yes the awakening is starting, this the best debate ever on the Arab Israeli conflict and the closet the Israeli’s ever got to being just yet they were way short and got schooled pretty badly. Lot’s of jiucy undisputed facts, seperated from religion and fantasy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbDMam_jGVk&feature=related
A must watch, turns out Israel is the only country in the world that legalized torture and hostage taking. How’s that for facts. A renegads nation that function with impunity.
February 2nd, 2010 at 1:04 pm
i wouldnt doubt it one bit Adam if you are an overweight un-socialite as well who get his jollies ranting on the net. Remembering that picture of fat Alex fixing his pc in his underwear that you posted a few threads back? Hmm..
You are a prolific joke 
Warning: don’t watch the above video or you will be eating sunday all week long!
February 2nd, 2010 at 1:05 pm
One chocolate sunday coming right up lol
February 2nd, 2010 at 1:07 pm
LMAO of @ “Israel is a nation under constant and continued attack from people who have no respect for it’s right to exist (and, incidentally, see every non-muslim as second rate citizens with diminshed rights).”
Thanks for admitting that there cream cheese Danish boy
February 2nd, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Adam, it was in your link
February 2nd, 2010 at 5:20 pm
MC @119: Your link, while interesting reading, argues that the Europeans (including the vikings presumably) did not explore the New World because they didn’t have the technological means. And it goes on to argue that the Chinese must have explored the New World, because they did have the technology. In the case of the former, your source dismisses things that are known to have actually happened because the author thinks it was impossible, and in the latter the author asserts an alternative theory without any evidence to back it up.
Does this advance our knowledge of history, or does it just obfuscate and mislead?
February 2nd, 2010 at 5:37 pm
MC @ 129:
True, but that link was just documentation for my quote - I did not intend for it to reflect my entire view on the french slave trade or the role of the british in it…
February 2nd, 2010 at 6:09 pm
Ahh, DWDS/Sandy is back. You guys are simply standing in line for verbal spanking, aren’t you?
Well, let’s see…
@ 124: “Adam accusing his accusers of exactly what he has been causght red handedly doing”
No, Adam showing a bunch of dweebs that they are guilty of exactly their own (unfounded as always, of course!) accusations towards me…
@ 125: LOL! I seem to remember the exact same thing posted by someone else a bit further up today. Now his post is gone and you’re here with it instead - thank you for once again demonstrating your multiple-persona schizophrenia!
@ 126: Please, Sandy… Don’t look in the mirror when you try to picture me!
Seriously, I’m just too good-looking for you to imagine, so don’t even try… 
@ 128: I’m glad you agree with me, but… Have you actually understood what I wrote?
February 2nd, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Craig I made a post on the book
http://mysoupis.blogspot.com/2007/11/zheng-hi-on-discovering-of-americas.html
and the link that I posted above was given me by a reader, so it might be an interpretation
Though the author’s link says that he is an expert of maritime cards, and that while studying the cards he deducted that Chineses have been along America
February 2nd, 2010 at 8:49 pm
DWDS adam is viciously psychotic mate, there he goes again trying to turn the unseen into something tangible, namely the unseen into the psychological projection of a Sand Ape in his feeble mind mwah ha ha. Get a black eye from anyone on the net, hey, blame it on the person who gave you your first black eye why don’t you
maybe that way 3 strikes and he’s out, you know, being a dangerous Internet offender and all lol 
What a gullible adorable little putz he is, re-accusing you of what you initially accused him of, after you had already accused him. Not to mention he is using Sandy’ vocab to boot! Maybe he is the Sand Ape after all eh, posting as a sock puppet to get attention, after all he is the only one nuisanced and obessed by him? 
Come on Adam, we all miss him but quit jerking it brotha
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:00 pm
lol
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:02 pm
I can’t get over how sharp Finkeltein is, they had to match him with an ex Israeli minister of foreign affairs but still wiped the floor with him.
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:08 pm
#133 - Marie Claude
In my opinion there is a big difference between deduction (the chinese) and proof (the vikings).
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:34 pm
“Now, Israel is a nation under constant and continued attack from people who have no respect for it’s right to exist”
Wait a second, What did Israel do to the people who owned the land and EXISTED before them???????
Treat others the way you should be treated.
You reap what you sow my dear Adam.
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:04 am
As for the original topic, I advise everyone to do whatever it takes to protect the Copts in Egypt within reason and wisely. It is very easy to go on attacking muslims in Egypt which will result into more persecution to the Copts.
I think writing to congress and the president to put pressure on Mubarak and co to provide equal rights to Copts or peaceful protests will be a great idea.
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:13 am
Twosret @ 107,
I don’t believe I was speaking to you. I was asking Down to clarify his position vis-a-vis dispossession of property, and Mohammed to clarify what he means about “occupied” Palestine. And yes, the Palestinians are not the only people with a gripe on this green planet, and other groups can be discussed in conjunction with them.
I am curious about what exactly is meant by this: “Wait a second, What did Israel do to the people who owned the land and EXISTED before them???????
Treat others the way you should be treated.
You reap what you sow my dear Adam.”
Of course, even you will acknowledge that not all Jews in Israel are on Palestinian land. Some Jews are on land that was purchased from landholders, Palestinian or otherwise. Some Jews are on land that was always Jewish. Some Jews are on land that was ownerless. Some Jews are on land that was a Jordanian military base (before they invaded on the Palestinians behalf with the hope of ethnically cleansing the land of Jews). Yet these Jews are all legitimate targets for killing, no? Is this your point?
Is your point therefore that ANYONE who is on land that was taken someone else is a legitimate target? Is this your point? So, say, someone who lives on land in Brooklyn that was taken from the Canarsee Indians can fairly be killed by someone who is of Native American Descent? Or Someone who lives in San Francisco can fairly be killed by a person of Mexican Descent? Would you then blithely say “You reap what you sow”?
And are you then prepared to say that Israel’s invasion of Egypt in 1956 is completely legitimate as a response to Egypt’s dispossession of it’s Jews? So then Jews can attack Egyptian interests and you’ll say “You reap what you sew”? Please tell me, Twosret. I think you need to clarify your position. You allege to be a peace-loving and violence abhoring person. Perhaps you didn’t mean it quite as callously as it sounds. But it sounds pretty effing callous to me.
bj
February 3rd, 2010 at 6:53 am
MuHaMMaD @ 134:
Ah yes, once again lost for words… Well, not words perhaps, but proper arguments and reflections on my points.
Thank you once again for demonstrating your intellectual shortcomings, and retorting with an inflammatory and off-topic post (yes, that IS the difinition of a troll… 
) with no argumentative value whatsoever!
Keep them coming; each of these non-sensical tirades simply underlines my case more and more…
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:12 am
DWDS @ 125:
I find it curious to witness your joy at the Mr. Finkelstein’s presentation in the above vid. I mean, at 1:25 in the vid, he has already established that he is basically in agreeance with me, Craig, Ted, BJ, etc as far the basics for a solution is concerned. Israel is to be accepted as a legitimate state by Palestine and the neighbouring Arab states and these are to stop any and all hostilities towards Israel. Israel, on the other hand, should withdraw from all occupied territory on the wrong side of the ‘67 border as a result of peace negotiations. Not exactly what you guys have been screaming for…!
However, from here on he disolves into half-truths and speculations… For one thing, he’s wrong regarding his view on the UN vote. Basically, he’s mixing up two issues. Few are in disagreement with what he presents in the first 1½ minute. There is, however, disagreement on who to condemn in the ongoing conflict. Israel, for colonizing land outside their borders and controlling the borders of both Palestinian territories, or Palestine, for continuing hostilities and refusing to accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel? The US vetoed a return to pre- ‘67 borders, not a two-state solution, by the way… And at no time does he address the problem of splitting the temple mount area, a problem which (on both sides, but mostly the Palestinian, as per Camp David) has halted every single two-state solution thus far…!
At 2:30 he speculates as to Israel’s intent towards a two-state solution in the ’70s, and completely disregards the fact that the PLO was continually involved in attacks on Israel with the intent of destroying Israel as a state - the PLO’s flirtation with the idea of a two-state solution was cursory and probably served as time to regroup more than anything else. Remember, Israel voted FOR a two-state solution in ‘48; the Arabs voted AGAINST.
At 4:23, who the heck where the “real representatives of the Palestinian people” and when did they express a wish for a two-state solution? Hamas beat Fatah hands down at the voting stalls, so “the real representatives” must be the leaders of Hamas, and they sure as hell don’t want a two-state solution…!
At 8:18, wtf? Israel offered some 90% withdrawel from a nation, that had started a war against them. Israel agreed to a Palestinian army with no limits, despite the fact that Palestine had started the war in the first place - remember the limits dictated to Germany after both WW1 and 2 as well as to Japan? Israel offered large chunks of land within Israeli borders - http://www.iris.org.il/camp_david2.htm - in exchange for settlements in aprx. 10% of the West Bank - http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm - including security zones. I’ll concede this argument, since the settlemetns WERE and ARE illegal, but the Palestinians could have quadrupled the area they would be forfeitting, if they really had been interested in peace… Israel even offered to give up control of the friggin’ temple mount! And all the time, Mr. Finkelstein is ignoring the fact that there is a war going on; a war that the Palestinians started and has never ended…
He ends up with pointing out 4 keys factors for peace, but focusing solely on the illegal settlements, going as far as to give incorrect numbers (the Palestinians, according to him, were willing to concede 50% of the settlements on the WB; in reality they would NOT concede 9%!)
Sorry, but Mr. Finkelstein obviously has a clear agenda, and has no wish to look at the facts objectively.
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:28 am
Twos @ 138:
We’ve been over this a hundred times…
“What did Israel do to the people who owned the land and EXISTED before them???????”
I don’t know… What happened to the ancient Philistines and the Phoenecians? Either they were wiped out or they integrated into the various ethnic groups living in the area. Whatever the case, they’re not around today, so the topic is moot…
Have Jews lived in the area for the last 2000+ years? Yes. Did the Arabs arrive in the area (as military conquerors) several centuries later? Yes. Was there never an Arab state of Palestine in the area before the UN partition plan in 1948? No. Were the Arabs willing to accept the Partition Plan? No. Did the Arabs start a war against the sovereign state of Israel, with the intention of wiping it out completely? Yes. Have the Palestinians been willing to accept peace ever since? No. Is present day Palestine willing to cease hostilitites and sit down at the negotiating table to find a peaceful two-state solution? No.
“Treat others the way you should be treated. You reap what you sow”
Indeed. Until the Palestinians learn this, cease hostilities and sit down at the negotiating table, they’ll have to deal with crackdowns by the IDF and general straightjacket conditions…
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:32 am
Twos @ 139:
“It is very easy to go on attacking muslims in Egypt which will result into more persecution to the Copts”
Do you mean physically or verbally? If it’s the former I agree completely; the copts would do themselves a great favour by not raising their fists, instead appealing to the international society for help. If it’s the latter, I vehemently disagree; should one not be allowed to voice one’s opinion on injustice around the world?
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:51 am
Bj,
First off let me say that I consider you a lot more reasonable than the likes of Adam who DOES INDEED carry a DEEP GRUDGE against ARABS, namely MUSLIMS. But you are slightly biased as well. I see tworset as being the only one here who has even a modicum of open mindedness. I can not believe that adams points get sodomized so badly then he says I won I won, I made good points, you made none and asks for it to keep on coming, when he obviously is the one making no concessions simply repeating the same old inconsistent facts time after time. Perception and reality are 2 different things. If he was a man he would open the link posted and try to refute one single point Finkelstein and and his debater make, as they point out that the Arabs did not start the war, the British did, then Finkelstein points out that it is the Palestinians who have made (huge) the concessions. Again as their is a difference between fantasy and International law.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbDMam_jGVk&feature=related
bj if you feel you are up to it, give it a whirl as well. BTW Tel Aviv was not occupied land but has since been adjoined by occupied lands, hence making tel Aviv not such an immaculately unoccupied place. But Arabs turn their cheek as because they are making CONCESSIONS.
“So, say, someone who lives on land in Brooklyn that was taken from the Canarsee Indians can fairly be killed by someone who is of Native American Descent?”
Let me answer this. Yes, if the new Brooklynites are still waging war on the natives and taking away land which DOES NOT BELONG TO THEM and forcing them into exile. Absolutely bj!
“And are you then prepared to say that Israel’s invasion of Egypt in 1956 is completely legitimate as a response to Egypt’s dispossession of it’s Jews? So then Jews can attack Egyptian interests and you’ll say “You reap what you sew”?
Let me answer this again for umfteenth time, Arab Jews were expelled as a security precaution.” Quoting the article:
“In the name of being fair and balanced, the official justification for the imprisonment of Jews was the Egyptian government’s fear of Israeli spies in Egypt. (After the Lavon Affair, in which Egyptian Jews were involved in Israeli plots to bomb American and British owned targets in Egypt (hoping the blame would be placed elsewhere and prove the instability of Nasser’ regime), their fears were warranted”)
“Then the Six Day War began and the end of thousands of years of Jewish history in Egypt. The Egyptian government, humiliated by a crushing defeat and even more concerned with continual Israeli espionage, began rounding up all Jewish men, adequately representing the pain felt by many of the families who decided, whatever their reasons, to migrate”
bj, I challenge you as fair and equivocal human being to watch even 5 out the 6 episodes then come back for debate. For these are absolute facts accepted by the Israeli’s as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbDMam_jGVk&feature=related
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:28 am
DWDS @ 145:
I do not doubt that you cannot believe how I feel towards your posts; after all, you seem completely unable to fathom that you fellows actually have to put up some kind of argument to support your point of view, and address other peoples arguments if you want to prove them wrong…
I’m not claiming any “victory” - to do so against people who do not actually argue would be pointless. I do stress the intellectual one-sidedness of our conversation, insofar as I take your claims and pick them apart one by one, whereas you ignore opposing arguments, ignore facts, avoid explaining your own points of view and express argumentative victory on zero basis.
As for my grudge against Arabs, I’ll willingly admit to it; 4 years in Saudi gave me plenty of reason to build one and looking at the way Arabs are behaving in the world today (including in my own country), I see no reason to change my mind. However, I’ll always give individuals the benefit of the doubt; my grudge against Arabs is not one of ethnicity, but rather one of culture. I hold similar contempt for Iran, despite them being persians, and for China, despite them being eastern asians…
“If he was a man he would open the link posted and try to refute one single point Finkelstein and and his debater make”
Uh, did you not read my last post? It was quite obviously a reflection on exactly the vid you’re refering to! Once again you demonstrate a complete lack of intelligence or at least wish to communicate intelligently! And once again you prove my point!
“the Arabs did not start the war, the British did”
No such thing is mentioned in the vid you link to or the prior one with Ben Ami. Have you even seen it yourself?!?
Come on; get your act together! We would all be the richer if you’d actually start to reflect on your own and the arguments of others before you spew random bile left and right. You’d come off as something other than a raving loon and we’d get to actually discuss the situation in the ME, instead of just illuminating your ignorance…
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:37 am
Marianne, if you consider that maritimes maps aren’t a proof, you can tell or imagine whatever
besides you didn’t read into the links unlike Craig
apart Groenland, what are Vikings proofs ?
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:26 pm
bj,
“Is your point therefore that ANYONE who is on land that was taken someone else is a legitimate target? Is this your point? ”
show me where did i even hint to that? where did I say in my posts that the Jewish people who owned land before 1948 should be a target?
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:28 pm
“You allege to be a peace-loving and violence abhoring person. Perhaps you didn’t mean it quite as callously as it sounds. But it sounds pretty effing callous to me.”
flying off the handle again aren’t we?
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:31 pm
My response was to Adams request to Palestinian respect the existence of Israel and show civility. Well, excuse me did Israel do the same when it disposed the Palestinians to concentration camps, killed them, and took their homes?
Someone come and take my home and land and ruin my life and I am suppose to LOVE them and respect them?
Which planet you live on Adam and Bj?
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:33 pm
“I don’t know… What happened to the ancient Philistines and the Phoenecians? Either they were wiped out or they integrated into the various ethnic groups living in the area. Whatever the case, they’re not around today, so the topic is moot…”
Adam dear you sound like AJ of Iran and sound like the terrorists we see on tv
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:40 pm
bj,
You inject the farmers issue which was a very low percentage of people who existed in Palestine before Israel whenever someone brings up the Palestinian rights as if the Palestinians doesn’t count. Israel killed and displaced waaaayyyyyyy more than the farmers that makes your blood boil and you think that when I bring up the Palestinian rights I am the one who is non peace loving???? targeting innocents.
Fuck that!
So it is ok for the innocent Christian and Muslims Palestinians from Jerusalem to walk to Jordan, die, live in basements, and get displaced all over the world for Israel sake?
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Adam @144,
I meant to not be violent and raise issues and get international support to help Copts in Egypt.
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:46 pm
“So then Jews can attack Egyptian interests and you’ll say “You reap what you sew”? Please tell me, Twosret.”
You are too angry to read or understand. Where did I say that innocent Jewish Egyptians should be rounded up. I DISAGREED WITH AARON. scroll up and read, I also posted a link about he Egyptian Jewish community.
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:51 pm
DWDS,
I disagree with the article that Egyptian Jewish families should be deported big mistake and unnecessary. It is the failure of the security to do such thing. Those were Egyptians and if convicted in act of espionage then it is ok of course, but to deport everyone? totally insane.
February 3rd, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Adam,
“4 years in Saudi gave me plenty of reason ”
I was offered TONS of money to live in Saudi and I refused I wonder why you did it? How entertaining.
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:44 pm
MC @ 147:
Plenty of evidence, both written and in the flesh in Newfoundland - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland - but nothing to be overly impressed by… They were never enough to settle permanently.
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Twos @ 156:
You’ve pointed this out in the past, and my answer is the same now as it was then… When you’re in still in school, you don’t have a hell of a lot of choice when your parents decide to move.
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:47 pm
Marianne, if you consider that maritimes maps aren’t a proof, you can tell or imagine whatever
MC, that article is full of speculation, all of it unsourced and much of it invalid. For instance, he presents European maps for just prior to the “Age of Discovery” as proof the Europeans couldn’t have tried to circumnavigate the globe because their maps didn’t show it to be possible. There wasn’t even a consensus of opinion about whether or not the earth was flat at the time, so I’m sure he could have found other maps that debunked the ones he provided. Bad or plainly wrong maps were a dime a dozen in the middle-ages, and how much time did he spend on trying to find better maps for his article? He didn’t even make a token attempt to provide evidence that contradicted his theory, and that’s a huge red flag.
And you probably didn’t notice this because English isn’t your native tongue, but that article is full of grammatical errors. That doesn’t necessarily mean anything but if he’s that sloppy about publishing his “research” then how much faith do you want to put into his research methods?
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:04 pm
Adam,
I don’t recall
February 4th, 2010 at 7:21 am
Craig
http://www.bibliographe.com/html/christophe_colomb.html (in french)
in 16th century the educated people and seemen knew that the earth wasn’t flat, because during Renaissance the texts of greec philosophers (Aristote) and of roman historians were read and or translated, during aristote time, it was obvious that the earth was a sphere, even the Phenicians knew that, but for obvious good raisons the Church forbid to display these knowledges which would have contested its preeminence over ignorant fidels
.
This is why that probably Chineses didn’t ignore it too. I don’t mean that the first link I posted here is perfect, but the author link is a better source
Besides there were quite a few navigators that went to america that aren’t in school books, but known by the professionals
http://www.worldbook.com/wb/Students?content_spotlight/explorers/newworld_col_plan
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=G201%3A1%2F63 (Ptolemy maritime map)
February 4th, 2010 at 8:00 am
Twos @ 150:
“Well, excuse me did Israel do the same when it disposed the Palestinians to concentration camps, killed them, and took their homes?”
The Palestinians decided not to accept the newly named sovereign state of Israel and attacked it with the intent of annihilating it and killing/expelling every single Jew in the area. I’d say the Palestinians brought disaster upon themselves. In any case, Israeli Arabs comprise aprx. 20% of the Israeli population or some 1.2 million (more than the total number in ‘48). Of these, 1/4 are considered dispossesed after the war of 1948, and few of these were even alive during the ‘48 conflict. It might not seem all fair, but most of the Jews living in the expropriated areas were born there; hey that’s life; if you start a conflict, be ready to take the repurcussions. And let me again stress that I still cannot agree with Israeli annexation of occupied land in Palestinian territory or the Golan Heights, unless of course they’re officially part of a peace treaty. Modern states do not practice colonization!
Twos @ 151:
Please explain yourself. I mean, we all know that, historically, the people I mentioned were the first to live in the area. The Arabs didn’t arrive untill the 7th century, long after the Jews had settled there. Of course, if you’re talking about the STATE of Israel (as opposed to the Jewish people), it was attacked from within by some of it’s citizens, and had to deal with them. Some (most?) left voluntarily; others were relocated. That’s how it goes when you start a conflict and lose… Sorry if that gets to you, but you can’t lose a war and expect everything to be a it was! As it stands, the Arabs living in Israel today are a hell of a lot better off than any Jew woul dhave been had the Arabs been victorious…
February 4th, 2010 at 8:04 am
Twos @ 153:
So you meant both? Well, I have to disagree then. Violence should not be an option (when you’re grocely outnumbered it won’t help you anyway), but appealing for and getting help from the international community should always be an option! How else should such injustice be dealt with?
February 4th, 2010 at 8:10 am
Twos @ 155:
“Those were Egyptians and if convicted in act of espionage then it is ok of course, but to deport everyone? totally insane.”
It’s just insane, period! You can’t deport your own citizens! Where would you send them?!? If proper investigations were undertaken and all were found guilty of espionage (all 800.000+, from infants to th emost senior of citizens, were found guilty of espionage by various Arab nations following proper investigation? As unlikely an event as any in world history!!!) they should be tried and punished by the laws of the land. Deporting them (somewhere, and where would they go except precisely Israel?) only gave Israel carte blanche to do the same…
February 4th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
“So you meant both? ”
NO I meant peacefully only.
February 4th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Adam,
“I’d say the Palestinians brought disaster upon themselves”
Based on this statement I see no point responding to you. You are as biased and blinded as it gets. Your numbers are given to you by a propaganda and you are unwilling to see the other side point of view.
Sorry not wasting my time on insane statements like yours.
February 4th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
in 16th century the educated people and seemen knew that the earth wasn’t flat…
We aren’t talking about the 16th century.
This is why that probably Chineses didn’t ignore it too.
Actually, it seems the Chinese believed the Earth was flat until the 17th century. And they’ve never been notable seafarers anyway.
Besides there were quite a few navigators that went to america that aren’t in school books, but known by the professionals
And yet, your source didn’t identify any of them…
…?
February 4th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
Now I am going to actually address you adam, because of your hog wash reply. If I tell you that your elbow i discolored you will turn around and and accuse me of both my elbows being discolored (for example) that is. The video starts off by saying the British ad been fighting the revolting Arabs and had successfully defeated them, whilst the Jews on the other hand had succeeded (mainly because the British decided it was time to pull out). Meaning your accusation of my non existent intelligence is actually a very accurate description of yourself. go on to watch the video and dare remark on the imbalance of concessions between the 2 parties as the Arabs have made many REAL concession’s while the Israelis have made nil. But then again, after your admitting the cultural bias (which means you are a racist by some peoples definition) I don’t expect you to even try. As you are the one who is again proving your own descriptions of all others who oppose you (sandy) very accurate by ignoring their facts. When you are cornered you resort to ad hominem attacks bla bla so that is why people can not have a civilized converationo with you so they link vid like cartoon to match your manners and child like denial tantrums with all the pathetic smileys you leave
As a racist against Arabs i don’t think you would underdtand anything else anyways so cae closed racist dough boy 
FYI Arabs were defeated and became Muslims (though it was not by the sword but by something that is beyond your comprehension; as an atheist). Japan & Hitler will also defeated. Israel will be too, but probably not in our life time, but none the less, it will indeed. Good night dough boy 
February 4th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
Good job Tworset you seem to be the only one who gives a crap about these in the closet racists, kudos to your thick skin
You don’t have to reply to me since I use such crappy language sometime a that would demean your already taken for granite position here 
Have a good weekend 
February 4th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
craig,
ol right 1492 is 15e th
and
Piri Reis indique que l’Amérique a été abordée avant Christophe Colomb par les vikings, Sanvobrandant (devenu plus tard Saint Brandant), Nicolas Griuvan, Anton le Génois (capturé par l’oncle de Christophe Colomb qui a fourni la carte à Christophe Colomb).
Les cartes de Piri Reis (1513 et 1528) montraient qu’il connaissait les longitudes (parfaitement exactes).
search Piri Reis
it seems that the Chineses… but in reallity ?
February 4th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
D< you use “crappy language” and crappy language skills, along with poor understanding of seemingly simple concepts and axioms to boot!
“taken for granite”
Granite (pronounced /ˈɡrænɪt/) is a common and widely occurring type of intrusive, felsic, igneous rock. Granites usually have a medium to coarse grained texture. Occasionally some individual crystals (phenocrysts) are larger than the groundmass in which case the texture is known as porphyritic. A granitic rock with a porphyritic texture is sometimes known as a porphyry. Granites can be pink to dark gray or even black, depending on their chemistry and mineralogy. Outcrops of granite tend to form tors, and rounded massifs. Granites sometimes occur in circular depressions surrounded by a range of hills, formed by the metamorphic aureole or hornfels.
Twosret’s skin is not thick, literally or metaphorically. She’s not granite either, nor taken for “granted”, … at least not in my case!! LOL! Love you Twos!!! ; )
Sorry the pond scum is circling you!!
February 4th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
I use good Aveda product for my crocodile skin, once it wears off my true skin shows lol
February 5th, 2010 at 6:23 am
DWDS,
So Arab Jews were expelled from the lands where they had lived for thousands of years “as a security precaution”, and you’re okay with that. Is there a universalizable general principle here? That one group can evict another as a security precaution, and DWDS will support it? In this case, would not DWDS say that the nascent state of Israel erred only in not evicting ALL of the indigenous Arabs/Palestinians “as a security precaution”?
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Or is this a double standard?
C’mon, admit it. Some double standards are just more tolerable to you than others.
bj
February 5th, 2010 at 6:49 am
Twosret,
“You inject the farmers issue which was a very low percentage of people who existed in Palestine before Israel whenever someone brings up the Palestinian rights as if the Palestinians doesn’t count.”
Actually, most of the Jews existent in the land of Israel at the time of the founding of the state were farmers who had bought their land. And these farmers, for the crime of trying to exercise their autonomy, were invaded by surrounding countries in the hope of killing them all. I am sure had the invading armies been successful, you would be drowning your laptop in tears for the slaughtered Jewish farmers.
Nevertheless, the Palestinians who got caught up in a war that was instigated on their behalf lost land. You want to talk about reaping what you sow? And the Jews who successfully fended off yet another attempt at genocide are supposed to feel all warm and fuzzy?
So yes, as we discussed previously, both Jews and Palestinians have legitimate beefs, and should be compensated appropriately for the harms done to them. Bear in mind that both groups suffered harm from the surrounding Arab countries. Bear in mind that though the Jews certainly behaved badly at times, the bad behavior was in the context of bad behavior from the other side. The Palestinians-as-lambs paradigm that you love so much simply does not reflect reality.
In any event, the question that I asked, and that no one yet has answered, is that when you and DWDS and Mohammed talk about “occupied Palestine” and “freeing Palestine”, what exactly are you talking about? Are you (plural) talking about a sovereign state in the West Bank and Gaza? Are you talking about a sovereign state in the West Bank and Gaza and Israel? Are you talking about a sovereign and Jew-free state in West Bank and Gaza and Israel? A little definition of terms may be worthwhile.
February 5th, 2010 at 6:54 am
Twosret,
““I’d say the Palestinians brought disaster upon themselves”
Based on this statement I see no point responding to you. You are as biased and blinded as it gets. Your numbers are given to you by a propaganda and you are unwilling to see the other side point of view.”
Wow. Do you really think the Palestinians had NO ROLE WHATSOEVER in the disaster that has befallen them? Nothing. Zip. They were all just chillin’ one day, and these crazed, bloodthirsty, racist Jews just started killing them for the fun of it? And these Jews keep doing it when all the loving Palestinians ever want to do is sing Kumbaya? Wow. I’d like to try a little of what you’re smoking.
bj
February 5th, 2010 at 7:55 am
Twos @ 166:
I’ll take that as “I have no reasonable argument to your point, so instead I’ll try ignoring you and professing moral superiority to avoid having to actually evaluate my opinion on the matter”…
Sorry, but I’m calling your bluff.
The undeniable fact remains that the Arab Palestinians started a war to annihilate Israel and the Jews in the area, ignoring the UN Partition Plan. Period.
Given this, their cries of Israeli breaches of UN protocol rings seriously hollow. They’re throwing stones while living in a great, big glass palace, choosing to follow the UN when it suits their goal and ignoring it when it doesn’t!
I’m all for a Palestinian state with control of it’s own borders and trade, but they’ll have to show that they can handle such responsibility without posing a threat to their neighbour. Until they do so, they’re going to have to face Israeli intervention; after all, Israel and Palestine have never signed a peace treaty and so are technically at war. Until they do so, they’ll also have to accept that their hostilities take center stage compared to illegal Israeli settlements…
February 5th, 2010 at 8:22 am
DWDS @ 168:
Can you make up your mind?
“The video starts off by saying the British ad been fighting the revolting Arabs and had successfully defeated them,”
…which is precisely the opposite of “Arabs did not start the war, the British did”!!!
“as the Arabs have made many REAL concession’s while the Israelis have made nil.”
No, why don’t you point out Arab conccesions? I’ve already pointed out mr. Finkelstein taking liberty with the truth, and noted a number of Israeli conccesions, so now it’s your turn.
“which means you are a racist by some peoples definition”
Of course, but the world is full of idiots that don’t understand the definition of the term…
“by ignoring their facts”
As noted time and again; I see no facts presented. You’ve posted a vid, which I have thoroughly commented (even though you somehow seem incapable of reading my previous post to acknowledge this) an dfound lacking in credibility.
“you resort to ad hominem attacks bla bla”
Sorry, that would be yourself and MoHaMMaD you’re thinking of here… I stick to pointing out your numerous errors.
“your manners and child like denial tantrum”
See the answer above, and re-read posts 134, 128, 126, 83 as well as your own comment right after this quote. Nuff said.
“Arabs were defeated and became Muslims (though it was not by the sword…”
Oh, it was most certainly by the sword, both in the Arabian Peninsula (Ridda wars) and outside, starting with the conquest of Persia (Battle of Walaja and others).
“Japan & Hitler will also defeated. Israel will be too”
Odd choice of words… Oh well, as described earlier, the Arab side of this conflict resemble the axis powers the most. If Israel had such leanings, there would have been no Arabs alive within 500 km of Jerusalem. Fortunately, the Israeli side is the stronger, and will likely continue to be so indefinitely…
@ 169:
“Good job Tworset”
Yes, good job admitting argumentative defeat and resorting to sulking instead… Great job!
February 5th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Adam,
You are a bully.
Bj,
Yes there were hundreds of thousands of Palestinian innocents chilling when 1948 war started and they were kicked out of their homes and got killed.
If you are unwilling to admit to that then keep smoking what you are smoking.
February 5th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
174 bj,
I will answer your question. Stop building illegal settlements and go back to 1967 borders and then there will be some talk of peace. As long as Israel is occupying land and continue to demolish homes, build illegal settlements, and oppress Palestinians there will be no peace.
Land in half and one state solution well represented by both sides. There is no way for those two people to live together unless they have the same interest and goals.
February 5th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Here is what the Jewish farmers owned before 1947
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story571.html
February 5th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
Twos @ 178:
Since I have no way of harming you, I can’t really act like a bully. I have an aggressive attitude in my argumentation, but that’s common on the web… In any case; all I ever really ask for is for people to explain why they think I’m wrong. And when I argue that they’re mistaken, come forth with a counter argument. I have precious little patience or respect for people who ignore arguments and just respond like insulted children. My arguments with Craig, for instance, might get a little heated and might never be settled, but I respect the guy for seeking to counter my arguments with arguments of his own…
@ 179:
“Stop building illegal settlements and go back to 1967 borders and then there will be some talk of peace”
Your priorities are skewed - it’s the attacking and killing and refusal to live and let live that has to stop first; THEN we’ll worry about the stealing…
“As long as Israel is occupying land and continue to demolish homes, build illegal settlements, and oppress Palestinians there will be no peace.”
Correction: As long as Palestinians launch rocket after rocket across the border, demand the annihilation of the state of Israel and insist that every Jew be removed from the ME there’ll be no peace. Come on, a few posts up you insisted that violence should never be a solution - now you’re insisting that the Palestinian violence is justified? Make up your mind…!
@ 180:
Here’s what the Arabs owned before 600
http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/popups/maps/schmidt_patterns/images/w040.jpg
Oh, that’s right - the Arabs weren’t even there…! So, who’s to decide who is actually entitled to the land, and who’s the invader? Kinda difficult, no? So, what say you we accept the right of both groups to have their own land in the area, and not attack the other? That is, after all, what this conflict has been about all along…
February 5th, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Don’t bother to rant too much about my posts, kids - leaving the snow behind for the Canary Islands for the week, so I won’t be checking back on you until next Tuesday…
Enjoy yourselves!
February 5th, 2010 at 11:35 pm
MC, I’m not going to argue with you about a bullshit conspiracy theory you found on the internet anymore. I was trying to play along and get you to see for yourself how silly it was, but when you start talking French at me it’s “game over”
February 6th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
uh, because it’s wriiten in french, fer ya it’s BS,
OK chinese probability of having sailed until America is not confirmed, but Piri Reis maps are recorded. and are valid for serious researchers
February 7th, 2010 at 8:31 am
OK in all honesty the the Zionist side has a few mediocre points but the Arab side wins hands down. Everyone knows Israel is complicit in International theft of land, (criminal activity), the banks, blood diamonds, political blackmail, Bible blackmail even though they put Jesus on the cross *shrug* So the Arabs win again hands down, Israel wins only when its neighbor’s accept it, and I am not talking about they way Egypt and Jordan accept it LMAO, but I MEAN REALLY ACCEPT it as sovereign nation. Till then let the bickering and genocide continue until the chicken or the egg argument is over. LMAO at stop firing rockets at the invaders of your legally once used to be home
first. Put a sock in in it already
February 7th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
he he he yup Hani, adam, bj and tedders defeated again. The only argument they give is that the Palestinians fight back LOL LOL tsk tsk tsk. They make no argument what so ever, just cognitive projection of victory tsk tsk tsk
February 8th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Hani and DWDS,
I don’t think tedders have contributed to this discussion it was Adam and bj really, so I won’t drag him into it. I don’t see this as a competition or a wrestling game. I see it as sad situation of a bunch of self righteous Jewish Zionists who believe that their suffering and pain is greater than the Palestinians, that it is ok for the Palestinian lands to be occupied and illegal settlements built on it for the sake of the beloved Israel to exist so God will be very happy with them.
Double standard at it’s best
February 8th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
People who died in Iraq is a holocaust, People who died in Sudan is a holocaust, people who died in occupied Palestine is holocaust, Copts who die in Egypt is a holocaust. The Jewish is equal, to Muslim, Christian, and Hindu.
Any innocent who dies on the hands of evil and hate is a holocaust.
February 9th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
Exactly Tworset, a “Double standard at it’s best” indeed!
But as far as the state of mind and faulty reasoning that is prevalent on this blog with the likes of adam, bj or any Zionist supporter for that matter, tedders disposition is just as faulty, or should I say Salty!? They all assume, mind you, that it is OK for Israeli’s to steal land as their perceived right, not their actual rights then saying it is the Arabs who have been kicked off their land and displaced because they didn’t bow down to the Zionist entity (sufferer of the greater holocaust) therefore they create a smaller Holocaust as being justified. And when the Arab fight back for their rights, they call it aggression. If bj claims it is against innocents, well ask him to go to one of the many refugee camps in the M.E. and ask some adults what happened to their parent’s. The reason you tick them off so much Tworsy is because you are a Christian and it makes them foam at the mouth when they see you not condoning the suffering of innocents for the greater cause (of having the Messiah return) and in Adams case, simply because he hates Arabs. In the end, the Bible is probably right, the Israelites will gather again in the land called Israel, but necessarily the Zionist Jews of today, but the ancestors of those living in Israel today. After they see the their faulty reasoning, again, maybe I should say their salty reasoning (holocaust). Because it can’t go on forever, anbd after all, there are a heck of a lot more Arabs and decent human beings than there are Zionists and Jews, plus God i not an idiot by any means of the word. Just a thought you know.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
Why must every thread on this blog devolve into the Muslim/Jewish dispute over Israel. No matter what the topic is - just go back and look at every past thread. Not only does it perfectly illustrate the utter hopelessness of it all it gets quite tiresome. Nothing else matters to the entire Arabic speaking world (plus Iran, Turkey, and some countries in SE Asia) than the recovery of Palestine, and maybe down the road, inshallah, Al Andalus, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves. It’s all that matters and it has completely permeated every fiber of their being. And that’s why it’s hopeless.
February 13th, 2010 at 2:19 am
Egypeter,
Believe it or not I am tired of the same thing and I have asked people on many occasions to respect the Egyptians feelings when it comes to soccer and copts issues. Then I lose hope of anyone listening.
February 15th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
oh my-yes you are so right. we are responcible for the goverment we have. i learned it living in russia for a long time. people there need tzar-they dont need any domecracy, so they got it and they grumble just to gramble, but not to change anything.
February 16th, 2010 at 10:31 am
Commonly, university teachers want to testify the essay thesis creative writing ability of some their students, nevertheless not all good students are able to write professionally just because of lack of time and other reasons. Thence, a custom writing service should help to accomplish the definition essay professionally.
February 18th, 2010 at 10:03 am
DWDS @ 189:
“They all assume, mind you, that it is OK for Israeli’s to steal land as their perceived right”
Most untrue, as has been pointed out to you and your ilk time and time again. The fact that you STILL haven’t grasped this is copious proof of your limited intelligence and/or ill intent.
Come up with proper arguments and stick to the facts - both regarding history and the arguments of your opponents - or consider yourself a troll to be ridiculed, ignored or verbally squashed at our leisure…
February 18th, 2010 at 10:09 am
Twos @ 187:
” I see it as sad situation of a bunch of self righteous Jewish Zionists who believe that their suffering and pain is greater than the Palestinians, that it is ok for the Palestinian lands to be occupied and illegal settlements built on it for the sake of the beloved Israel to exist so God will be very happy with them.
Double standard at it’s best”
Well, it’s certainly double standards that you do NOT recognize the selfrighteous Palestinian terrorists (and general Palestinian support of these) ignoring the right of existence of Israel and the Jewish people, instead demanding their utter annihilation. It’s certainly double standards that you’re considering theft of land a greater crime than the murdering of innocents, be they Jews, Arabs, or even people completely outside the conflict.
February 19th, 2010 at 12:00 am
It all has nothing to do with terrorism or anything like that, but everything to do with the dooping of self righteous gullible folks like adam B. whom are fed faulty facts and inconclusive bits information. It is a propaganda war by Zionist extremists to have their (less than they are) sub Jewish atheists and Christians doopee’s (I just made up that word) to fight there battles for them. Arm them, sob for them etc. as they go on perpetuating crimes against humanity by robbing and displacing Palestinians. And when the Palestinians fight back, they say they are at fault, tsk, tsk, tsk, how dare they try and fight back after they humiliated them, unleashed terrorist displacing Lynch mobs, annihilated entire cities with Arab names and renamed them with Jewish names, making memorials and naming streets after the terrorist Zionist hero’s?
In world opinion, adam B. is the mirror image of a troll, not only does he go in circles time and time again, but has no original material. he reads the facts presented to him and turns around and says the opposite is true. Also when one tells him that Israel is in fact committing grand larceny, he says but, but, the Arabs are fighting back (duuuh). If you tell him those are not facts in your favor, he will turn around and accuse you of not coming up with facts LOL.
To prove my point further beyond any reasonable doubt, I give this board these following facts, and just see people what ludicrous nonsensical shit he comes up with.
International law, says it is inadmissible to acquire land by war. i.e. Taba and Camp David, Israel has signed this treaty yet continues to occupy and continues to build illegal settlements on land that is not theirs. The West bank and Jerusalem having been acquired by war, its inadmissible for Israel to keep them!! If you frame everything in the terms of what ISRAEL WANTED, then Yes, Israel has made huge concessions. But if you frame it in what Israel is entitled to, you will find that Israel has made no concessions. All the concessions were actually made by the Palestinians.
There were 4 key issues at Taba and Camp David.
a)settlements,
b)borders
c)refugees
d)Jerusalem
A) Settlements: Under article 49 of the 4th Geneva convention its illegal for any occupying country to transfer its population to occupied territories. The World Court in 2004 ruked that!! All of the settlements are illegal under international law, yet they are paid for by American and European tax payers. Yet the Palestinians were willing to CONCEED 50% of the illegal settlement’s in the West Bank in return for full peace and recognition of Israel which was a monumental concession, going well beyond anything that was demanded of them under world consensus and International law.
B) Under International law, Israel has to withdraw all settlements but hasn’t!!
C) On Refugees, the Geneva convention, the United Nations stipulates the right of return of all refugees yet the Palestinians did not want 6 million refugees to return but only the ones in the greatest need (less than 300,000). Yet another huge concession by the Palestinians.
D)Under International law, Israel has not one atom of sovereignty over Jerusalem as per the World Court decision!! Yet again, the Palestinian were willing to divide Jerusalem roughly in half.
So in every single instance, it is the Arab Palestinians who wanted peace and were willing to go the distance to achieve it. It is remarkable that the Israel’s can claim they too wanted peace.
Israel judges it concessions according to what it illegally wants, not to the relevant framework “under international law what they are entitled to.”
hence the very true statement:
“They all assume, mind you, that it is OK for Israeli’s to steal land as their perceived right”
Israel has signed this treaty yet continues to occupy and continues to build illegal settlements on land that is not theirs. The West bank and Jerusalem having been acquired by war, is inadmissible under international law for Israel to keep them!! If you frame everything in the terms of what ISRAEL WANTED, then Yes, Israel has made huge concessions. But if you frame it in what Israel is entitled to, you will find that Israel has made no concessions what so ever. All the concessions were actually made by the Palestinians.
Israel is the only country in the modern world that has ever legalized torture from 1987-1999, torturing tens of thousands of Palestinians according the number given by Israeli human rights watch Betselam. As well as being the only country in the world that legalized hostage taking and house demolition of its minorities as a form of punishment.
Good luck in refuting with your usual emotionally charged ad hominem deficient rambles. Whose the troll now eh?
February 19th, 2010 at 9:41 am
DWDS@196:
“crimes against humanity by robbing and displacing Palestinians.”
Which is much worse than lobbing missiles over the border at random and threatening (or rather DEMANDING!) total annihilation of your opponent? Get real…!
“And when the Palestinians fight back”
For the umpteenth time, the Palestinians STARTED the fight; the Israelis are the ones fighting back. It’s history, and not really all that hard to fathom, even for a bird-brain like yours…
“not only does he go in circles time and time again”
A perfect description of your own behaviour, exemplified by your need to invent bogus arguments from your opponents to excuse your own point of view…
“but has no original material”
“Original material” as in “made up material”? Something you excell in, on the rare occasion that you actually try to present some sort of argument…
“he reads the facts presented to him and turns around and says the opposite is true”
Making up your own reality again, are you?
“Also when one tells him that Israel is in fact committing grand larceny, he says but, but, the Arabs are fighting back (duuuh)”
No, he says “but the Arabs started the fight and are demanding genocide; which is worst?”
“If you tell him those are not facts in your favor”
They aren’t…
“International law, says it is inadmissible to acquire land by war”
And yet in your world it was totally alright for the Palestinians to start a war to eradicate Israel/the Jews? Again, get real…!
“The West bank and Jerusalem having been acquired by war”
A war that the PALESTINIANS started, to steal ALL of Israels territory… Get it into your thick skull, for drying out loud!!!!!!!!!
“its inadmissible for Israel to keep them!”
Yes, we pretty much much all agree to this. However, nothing can be done about that untill the Arabs decide to actually accept the legitimacy of Israel and agree on peace…
“All the concessions were actually made by the Palestinians.”
‘
The Palestinans have not made the concession to accept the state of Israel - they voted overwhelmingly for Hamas - and as long as they will not do this, nothing else is relevant… In addition, with decades of hostility behind them, the Palestinians cannot expect to go from total war to total peace in an instant - they will of course have to accept a period of adjustment, where their intention to exist peacefully beside Israel is proven without a doubt. Such a period will of course entail certain restrictions, since the Israelis will not accept a loss of strategic advantage should the Palestinians prove to be less than agreeable neighbours - this is a no-brainer…
“All of the settlements are illegal under international law”
Yes, we’ve agreed to that all along - haven’t you been paying attention? Attacking a neighbouring country with the intent of conquest is even more illegal under international law, you know…!!!
“yet they are paid for by … European tax payers.”
Say what? And you arrive at this conclussion how? Even the Americans only provide military aid… On the contrary, most Western countries provide aid for the Palestinians by the bucketloads, despite much of this obviously going into the pockets of war-mongering terrorists.
“Yet the Palestinians were willing to CONCEED 50% of the illegal settlement’s in the West Bank”
Wrong. Arafat walked out before any final offer could be proposed. In any case, it seems there are as many versions of the Camp David talks as there are commentators, and all coloured heavily by their allegiances - I doubt we’ll ever truly know what was put on the table…
“Under International law, Israel has to withdraw all settlements but hasn’t!!”
Under international law, Palestine has to accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel, but hasn’t!!!
“the United Nations stipulates the right of return of all refugee”
No, it stipulates the right of return of all former citizens willing to live in peace under the law of the land. Arguably, not many Palestinians fall into this category… And by the way, this goes for Jewish refugees from Arab nations as well - do you think these Arab nations are willing to pay these Jewish refugees their dues as well? Finally, it is not clear whether refugee-status is hereditary…
“Under International law, Israel has not one atom of sovereignty over Jerusalem”
Then neither do the Palestinians; the Partition Plan of ‘48 suggested a special international regime for Jerusalem. In nay case, the armistice agreements of ‘49 divided control of Jerusalem, and it has been thus since.
“So in every single instance, it is the Arab Palestinians who wanted peace and were willing to go the distance to achieve it”
No. Violent action in this conflict has their origins in Arab/Palestinian hostilities, either through direct warfare or state-supported terrorist activity. Also, no Palestinian government has ever officially recognized the sovereignity of the Israeli state.
“hence the very true statement:”
Can you not read/remember your own friggin’ comments?!? That statement was leveled at me, bj, tedders etc. and we’ve never proposed that Israel has a right to steal land. Jeez, it’s no wonder you can’t make a proper argument when you don’t even know what your saying yourself!!!!
As for your next paragraph; Israel is at war with Palestine. Any occupation of hostile territory is in coherence with international law concerning warfare. Any settlement on occupied land is not. It’s as simple as that, which is why my support of Israel is not unconditional. Moderate Israelis need to minimize orthodox influence on their country’s policies and get Israel back on course for proper peace negotiations, regardless of the faults of the Palestinians.
“Israel is the only country in the modern world that has ever legalized torture”
Well, I’m amused (with a mixture of relief and terror) that you do not consider ANY muslim nation to be part of the modern world.
“As well as being the only country in the world that legalized hostage taking and house demolition of its minorities as a form of punishment.”
You forgot the adjective “modern” here…
Remember, the world’s most populous country has no qualms about doing any of the things you mention here, as have none of it’s muslim nations as well. And a good deal more, for that matter…
“Good luck in refuting…”
No problem.
“…with your usual emotionally charged ad hominem deficient rambles. ”
That’s your own attitude you’re describing there.
” Whose the troll now eh?”
You are, obviously.
February 20th, 2010 at 1:04 am
DWDS you were right, adam is a troll you just let him prove that all on his own
I love how he choked up during his answers which had absolutely no relevance.
SCORE!!!!
But we already knew that didn’t we; that he is a bigot that hates Arabs for ruining his childhood. Just like Mahmoud Ali Salem, our Sandmonkey LOL
February 20th, 2010 at 1:34 am
LOL,
Yes he has Ahmed, time and time again.
God damn he is quite the finger pointer aint he, but being so deranged it doesnt surprise me, he actually wants to believe the Arabs started the war even though the Jews were their blowing up the British and everything in their path even before the creation of the state of Israel, meaning they were the clear outlaws first, and still are under Int’l law but the States veto’s the UN because they need Israel as the (mad dog) there in the region.
“Attacking a neighbouring country with the intent of conquest is even more illegal under international law, you know…!!!
Oh really why, because people live there or because it is deemed a country by international law? In either case Israel defies international law and attacked what was known as Palestine where people happened to have lived. Doesn’t take a genius, just an inbred misfit or two,,or three like yourself!
“yet they are paid for by … European tax payers.”
Say what? And you arrive at this conclusion how? Even the Americans only provide military aid…
Britain France Germany all give military aid to Israel you dimwit. Germany just handed over a nuclear sub, France and the States built their nuclear reactor at Dimona you idiot
Troll galore, you will continue to be IGNORED you finger pointer so long as cant see that the rest of your fingers under your index finger all point to yourself
February 20th, 2010 at 1:48 am
Ha ha helwa hakayet el finger pointing dee - gamda awy! Danta Nekto
February 20th, 2010 at 8:10 am
It’s really kinda sad that 2/3 of the 200 comments here are Sand Ape talking to himself with his various type-in-names. I can’t even muster up the motivation to make fun of him/her/it any more. I sincerely hope that you get some help for whatever it is that is ailing you.
February 20th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
All I can say is Ay khedma ya Ahmed basha!!!
And laugh @ Craig the other pychologically projecting troll trying to add in his 2 cents
February 20th, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Tadyee3 wa2t ya rayes beik ..Because surely anyone who believes that the Arabs started the hotsilities is on crack and doesn’t know a damn thing about history. I found this video which I liked, watch it before the JIDF have it removed as usual ya Basha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47OrATrqfn0
February 20th, 2010 at 9:50 pm
Cause everybody who finds arabs pathetic is a bigot, poor arab so hard done by ……..everybody is mean to to you, nobody likes you ……everybody hates you… so sad so undeserved, nobody recognizes the great contributions arab culture has made to humanity… funking whiny losers …300 million of you can’t beat 6 million jews, in fact you convince yourselves that this relatively tiny group of people are responsible for the shitty state of you’re culture and stretching this word “civilization”, if it weren’t so truly pathetic it would be sad.
There isn’t anything genetically wrong with arabs, other than easing up on the first cousin marraiges, civilizations first appeared in lands inhabited by today’s arabs. Arabs are the descendants of these geniuses, what’s different now, what has transformed peoples who were once humanities leading lights into among humanities’ most pathetic,…hmmm what has become the dominant factor in the region that wasn’t there before oh ya the fucking religion now some of you will say NO not that Once arabs ruled the world and had the same religion, …. no, that’s another delusion at the time that arabs had their golden age huge non-islamic minorities would have existed in those recently conquered lands. Higher percentage of islam less golden age
You know what i do love about islam ultimately it’s self defeating
I caused an poor Arab’s head to explode
as I nailed his lying prophet to a cross,
on his poor head I dropped a shitty load
He was so upset, I didn’t give a tiny toss
his mastered distress a noble steed I rode
so blind truth his to lose and his total loss
Pity is his lover, delusion is his aching boss
False kissed this prince, created an ugly toad
as he eats shit, sees piss as a spicy sauce
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:24 am
Ahmed @ 198:
Lol
Hello there, Ahmed, and thanks for your completely unfounded reflection on the discussion. Your comment and it’s lack of argumentative content speaks for itself in exposing your complete lack of intellectual capacity, so I won’t embarass you further by rubbing it in your face…
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:48 am
DWDS @ 199:
“God damn he is quite the finger pointer aint he”
Well, there’s A LOT to point the finger at…
“he actually wants to believe the Arabs started the war”
It’s not something to be believed; it’s history. What business the Jews and the British had is of little relevance to fact that the surrounding Arab nations as well as the Palestinian Arabs started a war against the newly founded state of Israel in an attempt to annihilate it. Period. That’s the end of that discussion, much as it hurts your little heart to have to accept it.
“meaning they were the clear outlaws first”
By that argumentation, the Arabs became “the clear outlaws” in august 1929…
“and still are under Int’l law”
International Law has no relevance concerning pre-1948 Jewish/British hostilities - Israel didn’t even exist as a country at that time, meaning there was no nation to condemn… What are you smoking?!?
“Oh really why”
You’re the one arguing that war of conquest is illegal… You’re also the one throwing about the term “International Law” all the time; I suggest you try and read some of it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation
“because it is deemed a country by international law?”
Bingo!
“attacked what was known as Palestine”
Uh, no. Pick up your history books and read them a few times more…
“Doesn’t take a genius”
I’m glad you’re admitting your shortcomings!
“Britain France Germany all give military aid to Israel you dimwit. Germany just handed over a nuclear sub, France and the States built their nuclear reactor at Dimona you idiot ”
They SELL military equipment to Israel! That sub was bought and paid for!!!!!!!!!!
Jeez, are you really that thick that you can’t distinguish between business and charity?!?! I’m afraid your two lovely superlatives will have to be redirected straight back at you… 
“Troll galore”
Yes you are, but handing you your own butt time and time again is just to much fun to ignore you, as should otherwise be the proper response to a troll… Keep it coming!
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:42 pm
OMG Haa hahaha..@By that argumentation, the Arabs became “the clear outlaws” in august 1929…
“and still are under Int’l law”…Haa hahaha @ the psychological projection. Do yourself a afvor and put a pickled penis in your mouth. I’m sure sandmonkey could help you with that.
Thanks for proving once again what a pathetic little terd you are. No wonder atheists are the lost scum of humanity LOL.
SWEET ; “International Law has no relevance concerning pre-1948 Jewish/British hostilities - Israel didn’t even exist as a country at that time.” PRICELESS! ” handing you your own butt time and time again : Aaaaah haaa haa haa haaa.
Seems, that Cameron, Craig, adam & tedders are all one in the same person. The world can’t have that many rejects on one page.
Trolls galore
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:04 am
Seems like your entire rebuttal was “OMG Haa hahaha..” repeated over and over again. You must be a delightful debate partner
Seems, that Cameron, Craig, adam & tedders are all one in the same person.
EPIC FAIL, I disagree with Adam about pretty much everything, and if it wasn’t for the insanity of *ahem* some people on this blog, that would be pretty obvious. I guess I agree with Tedders about half the time. Cameron… I don’t know who he is, but I’m pretty sure I’ve never endorsed a comment of his in any way. Do you have any idea how far gone you’ve got to be to think that 4 such different people with such different opinions could be one-in-the-same?
February 23rd, 2010 at 8:12 am
arabawy @ 207:
Whoa, you just trumped Ahmed in the “inane comments” department!
Come on, if you disagree with me, the least you can do is offer some kind of argument in your own favour… Even a token argument - you don’t even point out what it is you disagree with!
After all, commenting with no evident reasoning behind is the undisputed domain of the troll, but I guess that’s just pointing out the obvious.
Now, for your assumption that Craig, ted, Cameron and me are one and the same… Well, Craigs’ already pointed out the stupidity of that claim. Craig and I have had several prolonged arguments on this blog (I don’t know whether I disagree with him on EVERYTHING…
) and I’ve time and again pointed out the tasteless and pointless obscenity of Camerons comments. As for ted, the two of us have quite different styles in our comments, unlike Sand Ape and all his aliases…
February 23rd, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Eshta 3laik ya Hoss thanx ya Prince. As you said, arguing with Israeli’s might be A ‘LITTLE’ FUTILE, but arguing with non Jewish hater’s of Arabs & Muslims is A QUALITY WASTE OF TIME. I commend you!
Don’t worry we all have your back, if they try and pass down the presidency to Gamal Mubarak, the entire nation will go ape shit & won’t stand for it. Speaking of Ape’s I have to hand it to to Sand Ape..If anything, since ‘WE’ all are accused of being Sand Ape time & time again, including Ahmed, Sand Ape was clearly able to prove their folly in their accusations namely because, they used to call him/her MONA for the longest time, but then I guess realized, err, umm, maybe he isn’t MONA and is indeed Sand Ape
LOL
Anyways….But what will they do if there isn’t any constitutional change after all to article 76 and they rig the next elections in 2011 as well passing the presidency to Gamal? The only way to pass on democracy for Egypt is for there to be riots & hell of a lot of imprisoned people and martyr’s. I fail to see that happening.
February 26th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
so who won the debate?
February 26th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
When it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, the only winner is this dude…
http://th00.deviantart.net/fs23/300W/i/2008/008/e/2/Grim_Reaper_by_Zerahoc.jpg
February 27th, 2010 at 3:53 am
Adam,
That’s scary!
February 27th, 2010 at 6:33 am
A picture link from DEAVIANTART, how original! DEVIANT ALRIGHT I couldn’t have summed it up better, considering tworset asked who won the DEBATE — not the CONFLICT!
February 27th, 2010 at 8:24 am
DWDS @ 214:
As you can see for yourself, I wrote “when it comes to…”, meaning that any time you broach the subject of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, it’s irrelevant to talk about winning anything, unless you actually stop the conflict.
As for the “debate”… Well, that would be more like “public castigation” really!
February 28th, 2010 at 12:32 am
As for the “debate”… Well, that would be more like a “Public display of cognitive dissonance” I mean really, always projecting yourself as the clear cut winner with your convoluted spam as the irrefutable justification for your putrid hatred of everything Arab which reveals the extent of your psychological projection and aversion to the facts!
Well as you said, it’s all irrelevant to you anyways, so by all means, keep entertaining us!
Just say’n you know!
February 28th, 2010 at 1:05 am
Here is a piece of news. Let’s fight
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152779.html
February 28th, 2010 at 1:12 am
No wait! this is more juicy
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152610.html
February 28th, 2010 at 6:06 am
A Palestinian Hero
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152398.html
February 28th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
“Yousef: “He explained to me that if I wanted to work for the Shin Bet, I had to respect a few rules. ‘You must not befriend loose women or behave immorally,’ he told me. ‘Do not sleep with women or behave like a wise guy - especially you, the son of a sheikh. You have to find work and get along.’ One time, Captain Loai stopped the meeting and asked me if I had already recited the midday prayers. Surprised, I said I hadn’t. He then asked me to purify myself [by washing hands, face and feet] and pray, and then said we would continue.
“It was important for them that I would continue to be the person I was, for me not to change, ”
This paragraph made me laugh out loud. Love it!
February 28th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Twosret’s link: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152779.html
Wow… talk about making allegations without evidence… they are accused of changing their names to ones that sound “anglo” and traveling to countries in the middle-east? That’s a crime, in Australia?
March 1st, 2010 at 2:58 am
Nice to see that not a God damn thing has changed here LOL!
Very perceptive of you “Down with double standards,” I was indeed labelled Mona and all these other people until i exorcised those demons from them. Now you will be called me every time you rant. LOL @ cognitive & projection — you learn quick
How are you doing Tworset, you must be nuts to still keep coming and posting here. I did enjoy the occasional debate with a moderate Israeli like Roman or bj. It’s the others that are the problem, not to mention any names llol.
As for Mosab Yousef, I’m glad that he found a religion that make him feel comfortable in his own skin, but his denunciations of Islam just show how little he knows. Everyone expected he was a spy so the news doesn’t surprise anyone. Especially the part about not doing it for monetary gain, yet he states in the Haaretz interview http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152400.html
“I am only writing about my experience and hope the book will help me earn a decent living. ” Aaah, so the truth comes out finally lloll. Poor guy, but he should make a killing anyways
March 1st, 2010 at 11:15 am
DWDS @ 216:
“psychological projection”
How so? I’m mainly pointing out how you’re repeatedly missing key historical facts in your arguments (on those rare occasions when you’re not just spewing random bile with no proper arguments whatsoever). How is that psychological projection? You, on the other hand, seem to be constantly telling others how they think what they believe. I’d stop throwing stones if I were you…
“Just say’n you know!”
What?
March 1st, 2010 at 11:20 am
Twos @ 216 & 217:
Yup, that’s some real shit - I hope there’s little substance in those claims, but UK ministers have been publicaly involved, so I suspect not…
REALLY bad move on the part of Israel if it turns out to be true! It’s strange that we haven’t heard anything new about it for the last week - it sort of just appeared and disappeared from the front page.
March 1st, 2010 at 11:26 am
Craig @ 221:
It’s certainly illegal for a state to fake the passports of another state, and send their agents into covert operation equipped with these passports! How would you like it if people with fake US passports working for a foreign government had assasinated the German Chancellor or something similar…?
March 1st, 2010 at 11:28 am
“Nice to see that not a God damn thing has changed here LOL!”
Yeah, in those 12 hours since you posted under a different alias!
March 1st, 2010 at 4:17 pm
It’s certainly illegal for a state to fake the passports of another state, and send their agents into covert operation equipped with these passports!
Adam, that’s not what Twosret’s article was about. That article said dual Australian/Israeli nationals were under investigation for legally changing their names and for traveling to the middle-east. Neither of those things is illegal, so I’m just pondering what it is that the Australian authorities are investigating? There’s no probable cause to believe their “suspects” have committed any crime. I wonder what would happen if Australia launched criminal investigations into Muslims who changed their names and traveled to the ME?
How would you like it if people with fake US passports working for a foreign government had assasinated the German Chancellor or something similar…?
If the German Chancellor was a terrorist and a war criminal, I’d be a big fan of such activities. I’d even suggest that the CIA should facilitate that. It’s a damn shame that didn’t happen with Hitler in about 1939. Would have saved everyone a lot of grief.
March 1st, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Craig, no matter which way you turn it…
“spied for Israel in recent years by using their Australian passports”
These fellows are either acting as A: Australians commiting treason by working for a foreign government, or B: Israelis illegally abusing passports of another country. In both cases, the Israeli government are seemingly the instigator of the situation, which is bad behavior in the extreme…
“under investigation for legally changing their names and for traveling to the middle-east”
What? They’re under suspicion of espionage, and their action oddly enough coincides with a similar incident involving a friggin’ assassination!
“There’s no probable cause to believe their “suspects” have committed any crime.”
You’re basing this observation on what? Well, which ever way you view the situation, the Australian Intelligence Agency is obviously taking it seriously, which ought to give food for thought…
By the way, this exact situation is why Denmark doesn’t allow dual citizenship…
“If the German Chancellor was a terrorist and a war criminal, I’d be a big fan of such activities.”
You realize that many people in this world view Bush and other US presidents this way…? Would you be happy about them taking matters in their own hands the way you applaud here? Would you have liked for british spies to have posed as US citizens during the Falklands war back in ‘82? French spies posing as US citizens during the Algerian revolt in the 50’s and 60’s? Come on - if you’re gonna do something like this, at least have the decency to avoid implicating others…!
March 1st, 2010 at 10:13 pm
al-Mabhouh frequently travelled using fake passports and names as part of his “business” dealings which were all about murdering Israelis. Is the Dubai Government going to investigate this? Is any other Muslim country going to find out how this was allowed to happen? I think not. Extrajudicial assassinations have been carried out by many, many countries such as Russia and the U.S. to name just two. At least in the case of this assassination (and some others Israel has been suspected of) only the intended target was taken out. And when you are in the business of murdering Israeli’s, what goes around eventually comes around
March 1st, 2010 at 10:34 pm
Adam, somehow it doesn’t surprise me that you are such a champion of freedom and justice and at the same time you defend an obviously racist witch hunt in Australia
Craig, no matter which way you turn it…
Adam, no matter which way you turn it, what those 3 men are “under investigation” for is not illegal in Australia. So why are they under investigation? Riddle me that, Batman.
“spied for Israel in recent years by using their Australian passports”
A very serious charge to make, without evidence. Wouldn’t you agree? It could get them killed, after all. How would you like to be accused of being a spy by your own government?
These fellows are either acting as A: Australians commiting treason by working for a foreign government…
Excuse me? It’s treason to work for a foreign government? On what planet? And even if it was, no evidence has been presented that they work for a foreign government. Did you even read the article?
or B: Israelis illegally abusing passports of another country.
They are Australian nationals, Adam. Australia is not “another country” for them. They are citizens. They changed their names legally into names that sounded more Anglo and less Jewish (a common practice, wouldn’t you agree? I know of at least one Jewish celebrity who has MY last name, and my last name is a city in England) and obtained passports to reflect their new names legally. Again, did you read the article?
In both cases, the Israeli government are seemingly the instigator of the situation, which is bad behavior in the extreme…
There’s no evidence of that, Adam.
What? They’re under suspicion of espionage, and their action oddly enough coincides with a similar incident involving a friggin’ assassination!
No, Adam. There’s no similarity. These individuals did not engage in identity theft. The Dubai suspects did engage in identity theft. And again: Australia has no probable cause to suspect them of espionage.
You’re basing this observation on what?
Gee, I don’t know! The fact that what they are “accused” of is not illegal? lol
Well, which ever way you view the situation, the Australian Intelligence Agency is obviously taking it seriously, which ought to give food for thought…
Adam is taking it seriously too. Which out to give everyone food for thought about Adam, as well. I never had you pegged for a bigot, Adam. Even after all these years I’m still learning about what makes you tick. All this time I thought your reason for supporting double standards re: Israel was misguided idealism. lol. Silly me.
By the way, this exact situation is why Denmark doesn’t allow dual citizenship…
Who gives a rat’s ass?
You realize that many people in this world view Bush and other US presidents this way…?
Just goes to show how ignorant many people in the world are.
Would you be happy about them taking matters in their own hands the way you applaud here?
Are you claiming that if al Qaida or Hezbollah had the ability to kill Bush, they wouldn’t? AQ tried to kill Bush on September 11th, 2001. That’s what the 4th plane that was brought down in Pennsylvania was for.
Would you have liked for british spies to have posed as US citizens during the Falklands war back in ‘82?
Where the hell is that coming from? Since you are hell bent on using irrelevant examples, let me turn this into an argument that works:
Suppose that Mossad had a chance to kill Hassan Nasrallah. But in order to do that they had to use American passports and false identities. Do you think that would upset me? Dude, I’d be dancing. And so would Obama. And so would virtually everyone else in the United States. What’s the fucking deal with the crocodile tears over a dead terrorist in Dubai? The man deserved to die, just based on what Hamas proudly claimed he was responsible for. Do you disagree? What’s going on with people PRETENDING to be outraged that Mossad killed an infamous terrorist? Is that the way Europeans show solidarity with Arabs? Well, fuck that. How’s about Europeans start asking their good friends in Dubai why they were sheltering an infamous war criminal and terrorist? Is that too much to ask? If you don’t want Israel to assassinate known war criminals and terrorists, then the alternative is to bring them to justice.
French spies posing as US citizens during the Algerian revolt in the 50’s and 60’s? Come on - if you’re gonna do something like this, at least have the decency to avoid implicating others…!
You expect spies to use their own names? You expect Israeli/Jewish members of Mossad to use Israeli passports and Jewish names? That’s some weak ass bullshit right there, Adam.
March 1st, 2010 at 10:46 pm
PS, Adam: That’s a really admirable “guilty until proven innocent” attitude you’ve got going on there. I’ll remember that, the next time you are lecturing me about human rights
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:47 am
Israel stupidly underestimated the Dubai police. They have no clue who they are dealing with, this is the Dubai police who had no problem with putting the biggest tycoon in Egypt behind bars who will be hanged soon for murder in Dubai.
March 2nd, 2010 at 7:43 pm
I say damn good job and keep up the good work! Kill every one of those Hamassholes and the Ikhwan while they’re at it. Rid us of Terrorism.
March 3rd, 2010 at 12:17 am
EgyPeter,
Your comment is only fair when it goes both ways
March 3rd, 2010 at 1:24 am
…when it goes both ways…
Exactly what EVER goes “both ways” in an Arab country?
Dubai’s police chief Lt Gen Dahi Khalfan Tamim said that in future, the UAE would “deny entry to anyone suspected of having Israeli citizenship”.
I wonder what you would think if Palestinians were treated as Palestinians, In Israel and in other countries, regardless of what other nationality they have? Have you ever condemned Israel for refusing to treat Palestinians as Americans or Europeans when they have American or European citizenship, Twosret? If you say you haven’t I’ll believe you, but I’ve seen many Arab bloggers ranting about that issue and calling it racism and a human rights violation. Dubai gets a pass for this?
“Earlier, Israeli dual citizens could easily enter the country even if officials recognised them as Israelis from their accents and traits. But from now on they will be carefully scrutinised, regardless of what passport they hold,” he said.
And the judgment will be based on their physical traits and their accents? lol. Takes racial profiling to a whole new level, doesn’t it? Dubai geets a pass on this?
Speaking at a security conference on Monday Lt Gen Tamim said, “Israel must not carry out its assassinations on our land. When it has a conflict with another country, Israel should deal with it on their land or the other country’s but not here on our land.”
And yet, Dubai allows well known mass murderers and war criminals to enter their country, and even host terrorism conferences there where people plot terrorist attacks, as well as illegal arms smuggling. Dubai’s land is OK for Islamic terrorism, but it’s not OK for people fighting Islamic terrorism. Has Dubai ever considered the idea of either prosecuting or extraditing wanted war criminals and terrorists, rather than treating them as respected guests? Again: Dubai gets a pass on this?
March 6th, 2010 at 12:50 am
Twosret,
Who would have ever thought that anyone could’ve escaped from Shutter island. Craig, I’m genuinely impressed by this unparalled achievement bro. Sad though, that your stay there didn’t help your beautiful mind get rid of some of it’s beauty, on the other hand, imagine if they’ve totally cured you from habalak (an egyptian word, don’t bother looking it up, just trust me, whoever came up with this word had you on his mind), we would’ve missed your unstoppable diarrhea of sensible and rational air tight arguments always outsmarting Twosret and leaving her struggling for a response that would never match the mighty intellect of the one and only Craig el ahbal.
March 6th, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Mohamed, why is it that your crew’s only method of engaging in any discussion is to insult the opposition? What benefit do you think you get from that? Are you changing anyone’s mind? Does it make you feel morally superior to answer every criticism with personal attacks? You blame the US and everything else under the sun for the fucked up state of the Arab world, but you should be blaming yourself. When the majority of people in the ME are asshats like you, what the hell kind of society is that going to produce? Well, go to Egypt and look around. And stay there, since that’s the society you want for yourself. That’s all you are worthy of anyway. Trust me, California will survive without you.
March 8th, 2010 at 2:31 am
“Trust me, California will survive without you.”
Ya but we will still get the opportunity to laugh at you and your crews soggy hate for Arab society over the internet. I mean come on, if you can rant from shutter Island ( priceless
) then I guess anyone could. FYI tworset’s comment you intellectual mogul was that if Hamas is a terrorist organization than Israel as an occupying entity condemned under international is an even bigger terrorist organization, but of course you already knew that. Buddy you couldn’t make it in an Arab country unlike 10,000 of law abiding Westerners do, but after all, you couldn’t make it in the marine corps either, so no big deal there I guess. ..Long live Dubai! It is a sovereign country and can do as it pleases, since so called Israeli’s have abused the privileges bestowed upon them time and time again I suggest you take a look at the California penal code - 3 strikes and you are out buddy.
Adam, please keep your thumb up your butt because I would hate to see what comes out when you remove your thumb. Let your experience in Saudi Arabia as kid keep poisoning your mind. Saudi Arabia has more invested in America than any other country. Arabs are part of every society and will out live the likes of you and our ignorance.
I say both of you guys get a room together, copulate and come out denying any willful homosexuality
Right over in Egypt where you 2 would fit beautifully by da-Nile — de-nying everything as usual that is.
March 8th, 2010 at 9:05 am
Craig @ 230:
“what those 3 men are “under investigation” for is not illegal in Australia”
Espionage is not illegal in Australia? Well, who woul dhave known…?!?
“A very serious charge to make, without evidence. Wouldn’t you agree?”
I would, yes. Luckily, it’s not me whose making the charge, and therefore not me that has to provide evidence. It seems someone else feel they have sufficient evidence though, so I’ll wait and see where it leads…
“There’s no evidence of that, Adam.”
And I take it you work in some Australian Intelligence Agency since you have access to this sort of info…? Because any sort of evidence would of course not be handed over to reporters during investigations, which by the way answers a lot of your other questions.
“Excuse me? It’s treason to work for a foreign government?”
No, it’s treason to spy for a foreign government… I thought this point was made very clear in the article.
“Australia is not “another country” for them.”
If they are undertaking covert operations for Israel it certainly is… In this case they’re acting as citizens of Israel and misusing their Australian dual-passport crossly!
“I never had you pegged for a bigot, Adam”
I, on the other hand, had you pegged as one from the beginning, which is beautifully demonstrated in this next quote:
“Who gives a rat’s ass?”
Well, obviously not red-neck, megalomanic US isolationists…
“Are you claiming that if al Qaida or Hezbollah had the ability to kill Bush, they wouldn’t?”
No. Read the paragraph again.
“You expect spies to use their own names? You expect Israeli/Jewish members of Mossad to use Israeli passports and Jewish names? That’s some weak ass bullshit right there, Adam.”
You do know that spying is illegal, right? I wouldn’t expect spies, period. Of course, I’m not so blue-eyed as to expect a world where everyone behaves themselves (I’m talking to a dude who thinks that the US is perfectly justified in doing whatever it likes after all!), but I would expect allies or even countries on friendly terms with one another to avoid dragging each other into illegal activities such as this…
Heck, arguing with you on this matter is pointless! You’re hopelessly caught in your I’m-american-so-I-can-do-what-I-please logic and fanciful interpretation of international law. We’re just not going to see eye to eye on most things, so you just have a good day…
March 8th, 2010 at 9:09 am
Craig @ 231:
Just missed this last one…
“really admirable “guilty until proven innocent” attitude you’ve got going on there”
Please read more carefully before you post; I specifically wrote “I hope there’s little substance in those claims” and “if it turns out to be true!”
But I guess details like that only mess up your one-track observation of the world… Sort of like Sandy, actually!
March 8th, 2010 at 9:27 am
Anonymous @ 238:
Sandy/DWDS/Alias ad hominum (the writing is your style), could you perhaps explain what exactly it is you’re reffering to here? Yes, I know argumentation is not your strong side, and this usually makes you retort with insults and name-calling, but this comment of yours is completely incoherent…!
What come sout of my butt? Well, if humans are in any kind of way similar, I wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to see what comes out!
Do you like to see what comes out of other peoples butts?!?
To be honest, initially I wrote off Saudi as a singularly nasty example of Arab culture/Islam, but unfortunately the behaviour of many of the arabs/muslims which we have imported into our country over the last few decades, the general state of the arab/muslim countries in the ME and the widespread attitude of arabs/muslims all over the world has made me re-think the idea that Saudi is an unfortunate isolated incident. Hopefully, the future will bring changes, but I’m afraid it won’t be in my lifetime…
Saudi has much invested in the US? Uh, yes…? And what exactly has this got to do with me?
“Arabs are part of every society and will out live the likes of you and our ignorance.”
Huh? Yes, arabs are part of many societies around the world. In most western societies, they are a very troublesome part, and the problems are getting worse all the time. Will it change for the better within my lifetime? Hopefully, but I’m not holding my breath…
Other than that I don’t understand your post; are you implying that arabs will be around longer than any other ethnic group? Exactly what are you basing this idea on…?
March 8th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Adam,
Espionage is not illegal in Australia? Well, who woul dhave known…?!?
They aren’t under investigation for espionage, Adam. They are under investigation for changing their names to ones that sound less Jewish and for getting passports issued under the new names. And for traveling to the middle-east. Which of those do you consider illegal? :p
I would, yes. Luckily, it’s not me whose making the charge, and therefore not me that has to provide evidence.
You not only charged them, you convicted them. Right here on this blog.
It seems someone else feel they have sufficient evidence though, so I’ll wait and see where it leads…
Yeah. Right. After accusing them of being spies, you are going to wait to see what evidence is turned up before making up your mind lol
You know, Adam, if you REALLY believed in the western ideals and values that you always like to lecture people about, you’d be questioning why these men are under investigation at all, like I am. Is it a western ideal to launch criminal investigations into people when there’s no probable cause to believe they have done anything wrong?
That’s a “yes or no” answer I’m looking for there, not a bunch of bullshit offered up to justify an exception in this particular case.
The rest of your comment(s) seem to be just more of the same, so consider my answers to be more of the same as well.
March 11th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
Mohamed looooooooool
March 12th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
“Israel stupidly underestimated the Dubai police”
They didn’t underestimate them they just didn’t give a shit. Its common knowledge that Dubai’s security apparatus is a combination of the KGB (or whatever they call it now), FBI and Scotland Yard’s finest retired officers with an unlimited electronic surveillance budget.
My only disappointment in the Mossad is that they needed two dozen people to get the job done when those assets could’ve been used to off other Hamas, MB and similar douchebags! Shame on them!
March 15th, 2010 at 12:27 am
So, what about that rumor about Mubarak?
March 15th, 2010 at 1:45 am
No, let’s talk about he illegal settlements and the appropriate response from the people whose house was demolished to build illegal settlements on stolen land.
March 16th, 2010 at 3:47 am
What would be the point of that, Twosret? So that you and your friends can make personal attacks on anyone stupid enough to try to engage in a discussion with you, followed by Sand Ape spamming “lol” high-fives? I’d rather wait until Adam gets back so I can ridicule his double standards some more.
March 17th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
Twosret;
How about we stop talking about the Palestiniians and start talking about the Tibetans? The occupation they live under is VASTLY worse. Perhaps we can speculation on why Tibetans do not indulge in repulsive tactics like terrorism and strapping bombs on their youth?
March 17th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
To the pro Arabs on here believe me I have made the biggest possible concessions possible on this blog and still to know avail. As I still have a very hard time even pretending to accept the double standard concerning illegal Israeli settlement’s, but along the way I have made a lot of Jewish and Israeli friends who are not pro Zionists believe it or not - which sort of quells the anger.
Having said that, I have since tried to make peace and apologized out of etiquette to those whom were bitter about my thrashing of the illegal actions of Zionism, and as far as I can remember it was accepted quite empathetically. Yet every time I check back here, I see anyone who speaks out against the double standards of Zionism being called sand Ape which crack me the hell up and I actually feel slight pity fore the accusers. As if etiquette means I had agreed to become pro Zionist or something which is really quite funny. This all very amusing and really quite funny because for the longest time I was called Mona hehe he (obviously another person who didn’t quite agree with Zionism). Which just goes to show how bitter and one sided a person can be over battles on an internet thread. So wouldn’t it seem strange that these people don’t see it fit that people whose homes have been destroyed would be tens times as bitter!!?
If there ever was a waste of time, it would be trying to converse with such people on this blog.
DownWithDoubelStandards my email is QuitWhileYourAhead@gmail.com, would love to hear from you or anyone else. There are way better blogs out there where you will be respected and can make the difference. You too Tworset.
March 17th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
CORRECTION my email is:
QuitWhileYourAheadAlready@gmail.com
March 18th, 2010 at 8:40 am
To the pro Arabs on here believe me I have made the biggest possible concessions possible on this blog and still to know avail.
You single-handedly destroyed the blog. Some concession lol
And I seriously hope that was a sign-off. For good this time. Cute the way you pretended not to be the DWDS persona, even after you accidentally replied using the wrong handle a couple times in this thread.
By the way, for you to claim you are “pro-Arab” is like Charles Manson claiming to be “pro-White”. You don’t really want everyone on here to blame your retarded behavior on Arabs do you? If so, I’d call that anti-Arab.
March 18th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
To put it simply:
FUCK YOU CRAIG!
You are a miserable little hobbit that only Mohamed feeds from time to time. Coincidentally you know nothing and prolly never have either
Tworset and the gang are too smart for you you bitter marble. The only thing you are good at is wasting your precious time making enemies while you should be reading Dr. Hobbins book’s.
@ “You single-handedly destroyed the blog.” You should be os lucky !! Go Sand Ape - (my fucking hero)!!!
Let it burn sucka — LET IT BURN!!
March 19th, 2010 at 6:27 am
Watching you talk to yourself and pretend you aren’t is about the only entertainment value this blog has anymore
March 19th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
So, I guess Mubarak really is alive.
As for the “illegal” settlements — the Israelis bought their land, or kept a small portion of what they won after being attacked. Funny how Americans know the history of this troubled region better than the locals. Now why would that be? Oh, yeah, the Muslim Brotherhood and their false advertising campaign…..five decades of lies can have an effect.
March 19th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
Excuse me Valerie:
What are you talking about, were DO YOU get your facts from?
Murdoch, Fox, CNN, New York Times, ur local news outlet - all Jewish owned and operated!
That must be the case with a fale statement like this one:
[As for the “illegal” settlements — the Israelis bought their land, or kept a small portion of what they won after being attacked.]
Your joiking right!?
Don’t you know that the 1967 war was a preemptive strike? Meaning that Israel THOUGHT the Arab’s were going to attack, and actually ATTACKED themselves!!!!! So therefore your statement is false.
Israel has not only stolen the land and kept every inch of it, but its funny that you consider this funny when your statement I totally false.
I’m glad this blog has been destroyed, therefore your likes along with the others will have to start your own!
March 20th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
“Murdoch, Fox, CNN, New York Times, ur local news outlet - all Jewish owned and operated!”
LOL!! What tripe! Some people are gullible beyond comprehension.
March 22nd, 2010 at 5:13 pm
DWDS @ 255:
“Don’t you know that the 1967 war was a preemptive strike? Meaning that Israel THOUGHT the Arab’s were going to attack, and actually ATTACKED themselves!!!!! So therefore your statement is false.”
We’ve been over this plenty of times… Yes, Israel initiated the 1867 war after her neighbours (with whom Israel had never achieved a permanent peace treaty and thus was still at war with, by the way) had starting amassing their armies on her borders. That’s what you do when a numerically superior enemy gets ready to attack; you respond before they’re in position.
“Israel has not only stolen the land and kept every inch of it”
A more precise description would bthat Israel won the land in a war initiated by her adversaries, all of whom had the clear intention of stealing ALL the land that Israel had been granted by the UN. It’s mind-boggling that you can’t seem to fathom your own double standards…
March 22nd, 2010 at 5:15 pm
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/health.care/
Congratulations Americans! Whether you agree with the decision or not, you’re all going to benefit by it…
March 22nd, 2010 at 5:21 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8579766.stm
Israel seriously needs to get their act together right about now…!
“”As far as we are concerned, building in Jerusalem is like building in Tel Aviv”
Can’t the Israelis tell Mr Netanyahu that he’s way out of line, or preferably just knock him off his seat in the Knesset, and get some sensible people to the table…?
March 22nd, 2010 at 11:16 pm
Hope you are still alive and well, Sandmonkey
March 23rd, 2010 at 7:21 am
Craig, my sweet adorable precious angry little thing, the only real entertainment value this blog has is you and only you, don’t for a second believe Sand Ape and DWDS about you destroying this blog, this blog blows big time without you.
DWDS,
A hobbit? Really? Hobbits can add one plus one and not come up with seven and insist and keep arguing and fighting relentlessly to convince you that it’s seven, only to realize they were wrong and that the right answer is five. I’ve always imagined him as the sadistic Sheriff in Cool Hand Luke giving his brilliant “What we’ve got here is failure to communicate” speech using the heaviest southern accent possible. Picturing him as a hobbit is really funny though. Do you think he’s also a Trekkie?
I’m glad you found a copy of Dr. Hobbins book
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:12 am
Mostly @ adam
Just because one has been through something several times with someone that doesn’t mean that either person is right as long as their hasnt been a consensus. In your own words you agree that,
“Yes, Israel initiated the 1867 war after her neighbours (with whom Israel had never achieved a permanent peace treaty and thus was still at war with, by the way)
There for the question comes into account “who then started the war?”
For simplicity we will stick to the text book definition of war which more or less means hostility, violence, and criminal aggression from one side. Also for simplicity purposes we will call all non Jews Arabs and all Jews Arabs included as just Jews, because after all that is what this centuries long conflict boils down to.
REMEMBER WE ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT THIS LAST WAR THAT STARTED PRE 194O.
Now back to the question of who started this war? Mind you that all sides Christian included have been trying to hold onto this land for centuries. But under the rule of law which was enforced by the British back then, I am sure all will agree that it was the Jews who were attacking the British! Meaning the Jews started the hostility, violence, and criminal aggression against the British.
There for Arabs certainly did not start this war.
When the Jews were granted the said small portion of British ruled Palestine, they continued eradicating neighboring non Jewish villages. That is when the hand of Pan Arabism developed and tried to collectively fight the belligerent actions of the Jews.
History has only been repeating itself, just take a look at what is happening over there now. The Israeli right wing is making gambles of Biblical proportions.
“A more precise description would that Israel won the land in a war initiated by her adversaries. ”
See why this cliche statement is not accepted by such a large portion of the peoples directly affected by this conflict which just so happens to be about the entire Middle East!
“All of whom had the clear intention of stealing ALL the land that Israel had been granted by the UN.”
Yes after the hostility, violence, and criminal aggression — WAR was perpetrated by the Jews against the inhabitants of Palestine. Was there ever a formal peace agreement between the British and the Jews? Are you there for saying that Israel and Britain are still at war?
Netanyahu is indirectly helping the Arabs out and the Arabs although pained by this are just letting him have all the rope to hang himself and hiss nation with him.
Now just because I have been through this with you, I actually don’t consider it a done deal just because we may have gone over and over it until there is a consensus.
March 23rd, 2010 at 6:51 pm
Aaron @ 262:
The issue of the British/Jewish hostilities has been brought up before, and it’s relevance has been definitively buried as far as the present Palestinian/Israeli conflict is concerned… If you do not agree with this, then by your own argument, we will have to go further back and bring in to consideration the Arab support of nazi Germany in it’s anti-Jewish actions, and really - you just don’t want that!!!
The fact is that the present Palestinian/Israeli conflict has it’s roots in decades of Arab resentment of the rising number of Jewish immigrants and their wish to reestablish a Jewish state in what is historically their homeland; decades ALL predating the British mandate.
“British ruled Palestine”
Not British ruled Palestine; British controlled (by mandate of the League of Nations) Palestine, named so by adoption of the name used by the former occupier, the Ottoman Empire.
“they continued eradicating neighboring non Jewish villages.”
Ahem, lets just fix that, shall we…?
“they were immediately attacked by their Arab neighbours as well as the Arabs living in their own lands”
There, much more historically accurate…
Now, don’t get the idea that I’m ignoring the existence of Jewish atrocities against Palestinians within Israel, both before and after 1948. I’m just pointing out that YOU’RE ignoring the equal hostilities towards the Jews enacted by these same Palestinians. That old glass house problem again…
“See why this cliche statement is not accepted by such a large portion of the peoples directly affected by this conflict which just so happens to be about the entire Middle East!”
Uh, sorry but this is a moronic statement… Most of the middle east was not directly affected by the conflict at all, save through the actions of their governments on foreign soil… And as such they happen to be part of one side of the conflict, and thus, of course not partial to accepting any conclusion which might give credit to their opponents, no matter how true it might be…! I’m sure most Germans and Japanese felt life was terribly unfair in 1947, but that doesn’t make it any less their own fault!
“WAR was perpetrated by the Jews against the inhabitants of Palestine”
No, hostilities was perpetrated from both sides, and on a pretty small scale too… War didn’t enter the equation until the Arab Palestinians and a handful of Israels Arab neighbours decided that Israel should be eradicated and every jew in the ME should be expelled or killed.
” Was there ever a formal peace agreement between the British and the Jews?”
No. During the British mandate no jewish state existed with whose government the British could negotiate a formal peace treaty with. I’m fairly sure, however, that the state of Israel and Britain have never been at war…
“Netanyahu is indirectly helping the Arabs out and the Arabs although pained by this are just letting him have all the rope to hang himself and hiss nation with him.”
You’re sadly mistaken… Mr. Netanyahu is helping no one out, neither the Jews nor the Arabs. He is merely continuing this devastating conflict, and the Palestinians have sadly learned nothing from Gandhi - this would be a perfect opportunity to practice passive resistance, and show the world that they know another language than mindless violence…
Thank you for the relatively civilized exchange of opinions!
March 23rd, 2010 at 9:02 pm
@ ” If you do not agree with this, then by your own argument, we will have to go further back and bring in to consideration the Arab support of Nazi Germany in it’s anti-Jewish actions, and really - you just don’t want that!!!”
Bring it on. everyone knows the Jews had a deal with Hitler in return for each others support Hitler would let have Palestine if they helped him beat the British. So in essence the Jews who supported Hitler got shafted.
@ “Most of the middle east was not directly affected by the conflict at all,”
But now they are! As well as American troops being in harms way from all the fuel this lop sided conflict is injecting into would be slacker Muslims to become terrorists.
@ ““they were immediately attacked by their Arab neighbours as well as the Arabs living in their own lands””
No evidence exists there of prior to the aggression against the British - league of Nations etc ad infinitum. Either produce the evidence which not one historian has been able to prove beyond any reasonable doubt, or just admit it already. That would be best if a solution is to be reached, but since there isn’t, please proceed lol.
Kudos on your acknowledging that Israel is far from any blame. better luck next time on not seeing that Netanyahu is hanging himself. The Political levee’s will break sooner or later due to the imbalance and future progress of the reason such as disarmament issues for a nuclear free M.E. Hopefully butt head Netanyahu is just trying to get a few cheap shots in while he can, but in the end it will have to spring back in someone face like poor settler that will have to relocate.
March 24th, 2010 at 1:03 am
And bibi still says he will build more illegal settlements. More land you steal Bibi there will be no peace.
March 24th, 2010 at 1:13 am
The Tao,
If Tibetans decided to fight peacefully that’s their choice. Zionists decided to launch war based on religious interests. Palestinians have every right to defend their land when stolen. Sorry you don’t like it but sometimes there is no peace without Justice.
So good luck to Tibetans.
March 24th, 2010 at 1:15 am
Mohamed,
Kocheri in SF
and a cup of hot tea with mint.
March 24th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Aaron @ 264:
Everyone knows (well, obviously not, but you SHOULD!) that the Jews were practically forced into dealing with nazi Germany in order to save the lives of friends, relatives and indeed themselves, and this at a time when no other major player in the world seemed determined to fight for their cause… Their choice was and is totally understandable!
Unlike the choice of many Arab nations and their citizens, who supported nazi Germany solely for the purpose of ethnic cleansing!
“But now they are!”
No, they’re not, except through the actions of their governments on foreign soil… Physically they’re no more involved in the conflict than Europeans or Americans or the friggin’ Chinese. Mentally they’re much more involved, but this is based solely on an unquestioning religious attachment, and this is never a good thing, since it means their objectivity is completely down the hatch!
“No evidence exists there of prior to the aggression against the British. Either produce the evidence … or just admit it already”
There’s nothing to admit; no evidence to produce. Who cares what happened prior to the British mandate, or during it, for that matter… No Palestinian and Israeli state existed at that time. Two ethnic groups in a stateless region were having violent clashes, basically because the world was planning on dividing the area into two new states (the Balfour Declaration of 1917), and one of the groups would not accept the right of the other to have their own state. Guess which one…
The fact remains that the UN recognized the state of Israel and the state of Palestine in 1948, and the first thing the Arab nations and newly formed Palestine did was to ignore half of this recognition and proceed to (attempt to) annihilate Israel and expel every Jew from the ME.
“The Political levee’s will break sooner or later due to the imbalance and future progress of the reason such as disarmament issues for a nuclear free M.E.”
Why do you think so? So far the balance has been far from equal but still the Palestinians have been steadily moving from bad to worse… The Israelis have time and again proven that they can stand up to numerically superior Arab forces as well as international condemnation of various degrees, and Israel is presently stronger than ever. Additionally, the surrounding Arab nations are wealthier than ever, meaning that they’re much less likely to want to engage in any military struggle which will undermine their pleasant position. The situation is deadlocked, with the Palestinians suffering 90+ % of the negative consequences. Why they haven’t learned to accept the presence of Israel yet is beyond me…!
March 24th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Twos @ 266:
“Arabs decided to launch war based on religious interests. Israelis have every right to defend their land when stolen.”
/fixed
March 24th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
I hear the Mexicans want their stolen land that you’re occupying back, Two. Time to go home, hypocrite!
March 24th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
Anytime Twosret, just tell me when you’re in town.
3ala fekra el ‘7aroof elly esmoh Adam B. is becoming as equally mostafez as Craig. Notice his salivating and drooling on any kind of negativity that he could attribute to arabs and moslems, just to justify his inherent racism, I wouldn’t blame him, most probably that’s inbeded in his DNA, another piece of crap posing as a rational human, at least Craig is decent enough not have any pretentions of rationality.
March 24th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Mo @ 271:
Back to your old non-productive name calling, are you? Strange how you do not feel a need to argue your case or even reflect on other’s opinions - living in a bubble, really…
Oh well, it’s probably for the best - if you actually started thinking, you’d probably be so saddened by what you saw in the mirror that you’d do something drastic, and judging by how you’ve presented yourself on this blog thus far, you’d probably drag a lot of innocent people down with you. Better you stay uninformed and ignorant within your bubble…
March 24th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Adam,
Was I even addressing your royal crapiness, I was talking to Twosret (a human) about your inner Nazi (and oh yeah, you’ve got a huge one inside). And by the way, I’ve learned a long time ago not to argue in any rational manner with decency deficient zombies like yourself, unemployed, uneducated, dull, dumb, disenfranchised white supremacists with all the time in the world on your hand to contemplate and feed your anger, hate and frustration with your circumstances, someone whose so pavlovian for his hate for moslems that he’s so willfuly and happily ignorant about real facts or history that wouldn’t fit his predetermined narrative. Someone whose such a coward exploiting the cover of anonymity this blog offers to spew his racist opinions, opinions you wouldn’t even dare to closely hint to when in real life company of a group of people who might have a decent person or two present among them, not that you couldn’t or didn’t find fellow losers to get obsessed with hating moooslims in your conversations together.
So the only way to deal with you, is either treat you as a joke (but sorry, unlike Craig, you are super lame), or to ignore you, and that’s what I usually do, except this time.
March 25th, 2010 at 12:31 am
Adam,
You always insist that your history is correct and build your arguments based on that. Guess what, Egyptians and Arabs on this blog thinks that your history is a lie and full of crap. So what do we do? suck it up? enjoy your long posts? agree with you falsely? or Joke around.
You and others have no decency to respect the opposite views and you either cry terrorism or false. Is that what you call a debate? argue facts? reasonable or rational discussion?
It is a dead end so all that we can do is throw a joke here and there. People like Mohamed and I are entitled to see the irrationality in your views and your false history.
Easy enough to understand or shall I repeat?
March 25th, 2010 at 12:36 am
Karen,
When you are bred through a turkey baster all that you are allowed to write to me is wobble wobble wobble.
March 25th, 2010 at 12:41 am
Mohamed,
Kolohom zay baa’d ya ibni. They cry anti-semitism and they are full of hate and racism. Not Just to Muslims but to Christians too. Wallah wahed hena is rational or civilized or wants a rational discussion.
March 25th, 2010 at 12:48 am
So bibi is stealing land like his grandma Golda like big thief like bibi thief. What’s new? someone caught the Gov. of Israel cloning British passports and gang terrorists killing whoever they don’t agree with or hate? not new at all the streets of Israel is honoring the earlier terrorists of the Israelis.
March 25th, 2010 at 2:37 am
This adam is where you are completely wrong:
“The fact remains that the UN recognized the state of Israel and the state of Palestine in 1948, and the first thing the Arab nations and newly formed Palestine did was to ignore half of this recognition and proceed to (attempt to) annihilate Israel and expel every Jew from the ME.”…..
…did someone say FALSE HISTORY?
March 25th, 2010 at 4:24 am
It’s gobble, gobble, gobble genius
Maybe you should study U.S. history, thief
March 25th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
@ Karen calling Tworset “thief” lol, breathe deeply honey, just because Zionists are obviously in the wrong you don’t have to hyperventilate and get all nasty. Maybe YOU should go back and learn some manners.
March 25th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Can you fucking believe this shit - GOOD it is about fucking time!!
Britain dealt a potentially damaging blow to Israel’s tourism industry Wednesday by warning its citizens that traveling to the Jewish State may lead to their passports details being “captured” for “improper uses.”
France also is conducting a probe into the alleged forgery of French passports. “Further investigation has revealed that these four passports were actually false, as the photos did not correspond to the names appearing in each document,” a statement by the French prosecutor said.
The British warning follows Britain’s expulsion of an unnamed senior Israeli diplomat from Britain, a retaliatory move for Israel’s allegedly cloning 12 British passports that were used by a counter terrorist team that assassinated Hamas co-founder Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai in January. The Mossad has widely been considered responsible for the highly sophisticated operation.
Israel has not denied or confirmed participation in the elimination of the terrorist, but British Foreign Secretary David Miliband said Tuesday that there are “compelling reasons” to believe Israel was behind it.
Miliband said the passports had been copied from “genuine British passports” in a “highly sophisticated operation,” indicating that a state intelligence service was responsible. He charged that that a state inquiry concluded there was “circumstantial evidence of Israeli involvement in the fraudulent use of British passports.”
The British government advised citizens, “This has raised the possibility that your passport details could be captured for improper uses while your passport is out of your control. The risk applies in particular to passports without biometric security features. We recommend that you only hand your passport over to third parties, including Israeli officials, when absolutely necessary.”
Israel has a stated policy on security matters of neither confirming nor denying involvement.
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman complained to Britain that no evidence has been presented that points to Israel’s involvement in the affair” and added, “We regret the British decision.”
===============================================
In a violation of all UN security council resolutions regarding Jerusalem as an occupied city , Israel challenged , as usual , the most simple basics of international law , and declared Jerusalem as the ” eternal capital of Israel ” .
Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, stated that Jerusalem is not an occupied city, but the eternal capital of Israel, and added that the Jewish people started building Jerusalem 3000 years ago, “and now they will continue to build”.
His statements came during a speech at the AIPAC (American Israeli Public Affairs Committee) in Washington.
He said that “everybody knows that all Jewish “neighborhoods” built in East Jerusalem since the war of 1967 will remain part of the state of Israel under any peace agreement. He further claimed that this does not harm the chances of reaching a two-state solution.
On March 9, Netanyahu declared his government intends to build 1.600 homes for Jewish settlers in East Jerusalem.
U.S Secretary of State, Hilary Clinton, said that this decision undermines that efforts to get peace talks back on track.
Under the International Law and the Fourth Geneva Conventions, settlements are war crimes as an occupying power cannot move all or part of its population into areas it occupies.
Source : http://imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=58262
=======================================
Can some one say Rogue state already!
March 25th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
See this comment I made over a week ago?
# Craig Says:
March 16th, 2010 at 3:47 am
What would be the point of that, Twosret? So that you and your friends can make personal attacks on anyone stupid enough to try to engage in a discussion with you, followed by Sand Ape spamming “lol” high-fives? I’d rather wait until Adam gets back so I can ridicule his double standards some more.
Yes, I really CAN predict the future. Bow down before me, peons.
March 26th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Craig,
I’ve never denied your omnipotence (totally different than impotence in case you got, and oh yeah you will, get confused between the two), now that you’ve mentioned it, I went through your previous posts as far back as three or four years behind, and I couldn’t believe my eyes, every single one of your prophecies came to fruition with a laser sharp accuracy, it’s as if you’ve seen the future (sincere apologies to Leonard Cohen) 3 or 4 years ahead. What a wasted talent, if you wanted, you can be the next Joe the plumber(my hero), or the next Glen Beck (he’s so smart and stable), every time he cries on TV, I cry too.
I totally bow before you, great one.
March 26th, 2010 at 8:14 pm
Twosret,
I totally agree, but I don’t know why, this time Adam zeft really got on my nerves.
March 27th, 2010 at 3:09 am
Its about time tworset an asli 2a3ed 3al hait w basma4 el zait weme kabar mn el nas dee. Oh ya and good point about ibn el gazma adam da ya Mohamed ya diplomacy heh he. Howa da el kalam. Dole meyenfa3sh ma3hom khair keda 3lashan hakideen we Lauw we’2e3t taht dirse wahed mn dola msh hyerham omak, just because of the fact we come from the proudest race on earth weh 3andena 3ezzet nafs msh zayohom elly be nam ma oukhtou welad el kaffara dole. Pttttewwww 3la weshohom.
And I leave you with more news of the crime bosses against humanity - stories of the nuclear armed traumatized holocaust survivors, the vessels of Armageddon.
Now . i leave you with more details :
http://mondoweiss.net/israel
After a recent warning from US military leaders that Israel is putting at risk the lives of American soldiers in the Middle East, the British government has warned that actions by Israel present “a hazard for the safety of British nationals in the region.”
This latest warning comes after a criminal investigation has concluded that Israel stole the identities of 12 British citizens in order to murder the Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai in January. As a result of that investigation Britain today expelled an Israeli diplomat from London who is understood to be the UK-based Mossad chief.
From London, the Daily Telegraph reports:
An investigation by the Serious and Organised Crime Squad (SOCA) has concluded that there are “compelling reasons” to believe that Israel was responsible for the “misuse” of a dozen British passports.
A senior diplomat at the Israeli Embassy in London – widely believed to be a member of Mossad, the feared Israeli secret service agency – is being expelled from the Untied Kingdom as a result.
As the diplomatic row escalated, Mr Miliband told the House of Commons that he had demanded that the Israeli government give assurances that British citizens will never again be drawn into such an operation.
Describing the passport holders as “wholly innocent victims,” the Foreign Secretary aid that the fact that Israel was a “friend” of the United Kingdom added “insult to injury.
The British government has also taken the unusual step of warning British passport holders not to hand over their passports to Israeli officials unless “absolutely necessary.”
Since it’s impossible to enter any country without handing over your passport, perhaps this advice should be interpreted to mean that British citizens should only travel to Israel when absolutely necessary.
Aryeh Eldad, a National Religious Party member of the Knesset suggested that the British are worse than dogs when told Sky News: “I think [the] British are behaving hypocritically and I don’t want to offend dogs on this issue, since some dogs are utterly loyal, who are they to judge us on the war on terror?”
March 27th, 2010 at 10:26 am
hey peoples..looking forward to reading your stuff this time..no joke.
I was in the hospital for about a week and I’m guessing that 90% of the doctors are from the mideast or India..what’s with that? No judgement here, just curious. I happen to think I have some pretty sharp/bright docs.
March 27th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Twosret: …is rational or civilized or wants a rational discussion.
That’s good stuff, especially when you are saying it to your thug friend Mohamad
March 27th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Craig boo hooo hoo hoo,,,wah waah waaah!!
Time for a diaper change already..
March 27th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
You’re doing a great job representing the Arab point of view on these issues with it your wit and pleasant demeanor, Sand Ape. I’m sure you are making a lot of friends and influencing a lot of people….
March 27th, 2010 at 11:55 pm
Talk about double standards, Arabs and Muslims are free to come to North America, but Jews shouldn’t be allowed to go back to their ancestral homeland; the one that Jews lived in BEFORE Arabs. To say that Jews should not be allowed to live on “Arab” land is racist. To murder people who sell land to Jews is racist. To say that Jews can’t keep land that they won in defensive wars, but everyone else in the world can, is racist. The whole Arab and Muslim mindset is bigoted when it comes to Jews. Jews shouldn’t be allowed to live in the West Bank but Arabs and Muslims can come here. And you can live on land won in a war from Mexico?! The loser(s) who comment here under many different names thinks Jews of European background have no right to go back to Israel, the home their ancestors were kicked out of by the Romans. Tell me what right you have to be here? Your 7th century attitudes are better suited to Saudi Arabia and Egypt than a democracy like Canada or the U.S. or Israel.
March 28th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
A terrorist like Karen, have the guts to open her filthy mouth who have showed nothing but hate towards Arabs. Just because Jewish people lived there bizillion years ago you have the right to kick out the Palestinians who lived there? what a terrorist aggressor you are!
If you believe the Jewish people have the right to return to their land then The Canadian Indians should come and wipe your ass off your property if you believe that moron and take your land then.
You are the lowest of the lowest Karen, You dare to utter your filth again and again.
Your terrorist attitude belongs to Israel go back to Israel Karen that’s where you belong not in a land of Canada where people have the right to defend their causes and live free and say what they want.
A turkey baster bred bitch for real.
March 28th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Aaron,
With little karen there are no manners, she doesn’t understand decent sentences. The only way she understands anything is when you disrespect her because she doesn’t deserve to be human. For years on this blog she vented her hate, evil, and the lowest life comments with her extreme terrorist thoughts.
March 28th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Thanx, I’m feeling better…my heart only stopped beating 3 times in the trauma ER…where’s SM? I think I have a crush on my mideastern Cardiologist..
I wonder if SM knows him? Maybe he could do a background check 4 me? Lol:):):):)
March 28th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
Craig,
Calling me a thug did really hurt, specially if that comes from a tender, sensitive and all loving soul like you. I apologize if in any way shape or form you’ve perceived that I might be bullying you, the last thing I had on mind is to remotely bruise or hurt such a beautiful, gentle and fragile rose.
Peace brother.
March 28th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
I apologize if in any way shape or form you’ve perceived that I might be bullying you…
Bullying me into what? I’m not now nor have I ever even bothered to engage you on any issue of substance. What you, Twosret and the many-faceted Sand Ape are doing is simply abusive. You flatter yourself by portraying it as bullying, because if you were attempting to bully people you’d at least have an excuse (of sorts) for your atrocious behavior.
March 28th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
And you are the spawn of Satan, Two. You’re not a Christian. You are an evil, self-absorbed, hate-filled hypocrite who also happens to be INCREDIBLY DUMB!
Must be tough having to go through life being you and having people laugh at you behind your back
And I have no plans to go back to Israel, I prefer helping them from this end