Bartholomew: Crucified
The Patriarch speaks the truth about the mistreatment of Christians in Turkey -- a cultural hangover of the dhimma -- and the Turks, true to form, would rather shut him up than deal with the problem. They have followed the same pattern with the Armenian genocide. "Turkey slams orthodox chief's crucifixion remark," from AFP, December 19 (thanks to Sr. Soph):
ANKARA (AFP) Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu on Saturday criticized as unacceptable remarks by the spiritual leader of Orthodox Christians that he feels "crucified" and "second class" living in Turkey."We regard the use of the crucifixion simile as extremely unfortunate.... I would like to see this as an undesired slip of the tongue," Davutoglu told reporters here when asked about Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I's comments in an interview with US television network CBS.
"We cannot accept comparisons that we do not deserve," the minister added.
He rejected criticism that the Islamist-rooted government in Turkey was discriminating between its citizens on religious grounds.
"If Patriarch Bartholomew I has complaints on this issue, he can convey them to relevant authorities who will do whatever is necessary," he said.
In an excerpt from the interview, which will be broadcast in full on CBS on Sunday, Bartholomew I says that the tiny Greek minority in Turkey is not treated equally.
"We are treated... as citizens of second class. We don't feel that we enjoy our full rights as Turkish citizens," says the patriarch, who represents the world's 250 million Orthodox Christians.
He ruled out the option of leaving Turkey. "This is the continuation of Jerusalem and for us it is equally holy and sacred land. We prefer to stay here, even crucified sometimes," the patriarch adds.
The CBS website quotes Bartholomew I as saying that the Turkish government "would be happy to see the Patriarchate extinguished or moving abroad, but our belief is that it will never happen."...
Though Ankara does not interfere with the patriarchate's religious functions, it withholds recognition of Bartholomew's ecumenical title, treating him only as the spiritual leader of some 2,000 Orthodox Greeks still living in the country.
Turkish authorities also keep closed a theological school on an island off Istanbul, depriving the church of a means to train clergy.
There is no end to this.
But even this "second class" status is a misnomer, the depredations of dhimmitude are far worse than just second class. Perhaps we should start calling it 'worse than slavery', because it is a far worse condition than riding in a second class train compartment.
Not unless we treat muslims in the west like they treat us in the countries they now occupy will we see any changes here. We need a tit for tat approach, nothing else will do. But again, this will not happen with an Obama administration in the US, a moslem infested EU and an Islamic UN.
We need fundamental change....
The Patriarch does not mis-speak !!
The Turks are so hateful towards the Orthodox Christians of Turkey and this has been registered over and over again.
Of course the crucifixion of Christian believers comment also was used by the Late Patriarch Pavel of Serbia in reference to the Serbian Christians of Kosovo.
I can assure you, that neither Patriarch was lying or exaggrating any of it!!!
It seems to me that the Orthodox Christian AGAIN have to face the islamic threat almost alone. Of course there are other Christian groups facing the islamic onslaught in the world but in Egypt, Iraq, Turkey, Bosnia and Kosovo the moslems continue to pursue the destruction and persecution of the Orthodox Church.
Did you know that
- Wearing any religious symbols including Islamic headscarf in public places and universities is banned in Turkey?
- There cannot be any religious school like Catholic school, Orthodox school, Muslim school in Turkey?
- Calling for Jihad or overthrowing the secular regime in Turkey is a serious crime with high penalties?
Now I understand Bartholomew I. Turkey is not like West where religious freedoms are limitless. But he should know that all religious groups are treated like this in Turkey. As a follower of Ataturk, I support these rules because that's the only way we can save our fragile democracy.
Don't know about the rest of ya's,but I really could live in a lead suit for 30 years if it meant the death of this God forsaken supremacist blood-death-cult. Call me sane..All they do is preach and suck the life out of us through brainwashing and murder,even amongst themselves! If it means a better freer life for future generations,so be it. The time has come to face the music,and we all know how much they hate music.
Sunsuz, I wasn't aware of that!
Perhaps that is not such a bad policy. I'm not sure.
We'll see how it works out in the long run.
This would a dam nice time for the Vatican to come in
support for the Orthodox Christians in Turkey.
Sonsuz:
Ataturk is out and Erdogan is in.
The re-Islamization of Turkey is well on the way and irreversible.
"all religious groups are treated like this in Turkey" is rubbish. Islam is the new (old) flavor and Islam will sweep the rest of Ataturks Turkey away, just like it destroyed all other religions and minorities before it.
Ataturk is far from being out in turkey. The main reason Erdogan wins elections is his party is good at economy. They are liberal economists and Turkey has seen huge growth in recent years. This is a lesson for secularists who always favored socialist economy.
I don't know if this shows the public opinion of Turkey but Ataturk is not dead yet.
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8086/ataturk.png
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6241/tayyip.png
You can try it on Facebook.
Sonsuz, actually the wearing of a headscarf isn't banned in public places in Turkey -- but banned in government-owned places. So it's banned in universities and municipal offices, but not banned in parks, streets, and shopping centres, etc.
Also there are religious schools in Turkey. They're called Imam-Hatip high schools, and they are considered theological schools -- but I doubt it's anything but Islamic theology that's taught there.
All relgious groups are definitely not treated the same in Turkey.
Yes you are right. I translated the Turkish term "kamusal alan" wrong. It's banned in schools, courts, government and military institutes.
Yes again you are right. I forgot about imam hatip schools. They are schools for training imams. But graduates from these schools has some disadvantages when they apply to universities.
Turkey has a democracy???
HA!HAHAHAHAHHAHA!!
What a JOKE!!
Get real buddy... Turkey is an ISLAMIC STATE. They tryyyyyyyyyy to hid it but is IS a moslem run hell hole.
Minority Christians are treated like dirt.
"Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu on Saturday criticized as unacceptable remarks by the spiritual leader of Orthodox Christians that he feels "crucified" and "second class" living in Turkey"
Second Class was being far too kind - the actual description is more equivalent to inhumane and as bacteria. The Turks have been committing the biggest GENOCIDE in World History, yet it still remains a mystery to most of the world.
As someone stated, this WOULD be a good time for the Catholics, Vatican and the Pope to step in and comment.
The SLAUGHTER of innocents STILL continues. The PM was quoted as saying that "it's a matter of interpretation" in their effort to re-write HISTORY.
HOW?? How do you re-write history?
What was once a flourishing area, the Phanar has been reduced to a microscopic area and with Turkish Law, Christianity will soon be totally obliterated from Turkey.
Look at Cyprus - it was 1974 - not that long ago and they are STILL there. How many people were driven out of their homes, raped, killed, SLAUGHTERED at the hand of the Turkish Sickle?
We ALL, no matter the denomination MUST speak up and take a stand. Yes, right now it affects the main World Orthodox Patriarchate. If the Patriarchate is wiped off the Face of Constantinople and the world stands by and just watches, the sheeple will find themselves at the mercy (unmerciful hand) of Muslims. It will only be a matter of time.
Is this the future our children and their children deserve?
Speak up, take a stand. DO NOT LET THE TURKS WIN.
Do NOT ALLOW them to re-write history!
"This is a lesson for secularists who always favored socialist economy." Is this an admission that the current regime is Islamist? Prime Minister Erdogan likes to play nice with Syria and Iran as well, despite what they have done in Lebanon, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. Are we dealing with a closet Shiite here?
My opinion is in between Sheik Yermani and Sonsuz. they both gave very valuable information and thought-stimulation.
Erdogans government distances Turkey from Israel and develops closer ties with these dictatorships Syria and Iran. That is moving Turkey away from joining the European Union. Turkey for a long time was aspiring to become part of the EU. And the EU could use that desire as leverage. But many Europeans reject Turkey and many Turks are aware of this. And now Turkey more & more aligns itself with the Islamic World. It is of course already a member of the OIC.
But but but, they still manage to combine Islam with Democracy. That means that as soon as they fuck up with performing economically well, they could be ousted from power in favor of more secular parties. I think and hope that when we fully trust democracy to have it's course, democracy somehow will save us/ help us. Even without the EU-incentive.
But in Europe there are now approx. 50 million Muslims. And to them our message should definitely be: At a minimum you may be neutral, but on aggregate you must overwhelmingly support Democracy over Theocracy and reciprocity in treatment of the followers of all religions, life-convictions, including Darwinism. And if you on aggregate support theocratic regimes, and unjust, unfair dominance of Islam over all other religions where Islam has majority and power, THEN:
We Westerners, the part that is awakened to the threat of domineering arrogant Islam in a wordwide perspective, will become ever more intolerant to the intolerant.
And that is only fair and logical from a worldwide view. Because without looking at the 192 countries we could look at the 7 categories of faith; Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, non-faith and divers faith.
And the followers of the other 6 next to Islam are justified to demand reciprocity, equality of freedom of religion or else Islam is in the 21st century in a very unfair advantageous position, like playing soccer with a team of 11 against 7, or playing chess between Islam and the other 6 with the other 6 missing both its bishops and its rooks. Muslims in Europe should be confronted with this and by and large put to the choice; us or them.
The orthodox is what remains of the true faith....they are the keepers of it...have not changed it .Not like the vatican II did.The catholic church is almost a joke now, so infested as it is with socialism , liberation theology ideas, arrianism, etc.I am not an othodox now because there aint any here where I live,otherwise i would join.
Turkey is like today what Britain, France and many European countries (no, Turkey is NOT a European country) will be like in a matter of just a few decades.
BTW, why are we bemoaning closure of Churches in other (muslim) countries while Churches are closing down in their thousands here with church attendances falling faster than the space shuttle Columbia!
I went to the AFP link and tried to post a comment saying that the infidels who were commenting needed to study dhimmitude before speaking. An hour later the post was still not there. I wonder?
And DhimmiAmerica's beloved democratic Emperor Hussein, belonging to the church of "Not God bless, but God DAMN America" HAS LODGED A SERIOUS COMPLAINT WITH THE TURKISH EMBASSY TO ENSURE MINORITY RIGHTS IN TURKEY ARE THEIR HIGHEST PRIORITY.
Oh sorry, the above was a misprint.
No such luck for the Christians this Christmas. Apparently this minority "community" is outside of Chicago.
FRENCH BLOG ON THE DANGERS OF ISLAM
BLOG EN FRANCAIS SUR LES DANGERS DE L'ISLAM
http://www.avraidire.eu/2009/12/laffaire-des-minarets-en-suisse/
If we do not act now, the Vatican authorities will be issuing similar complaints in 50 years. WAKE UP EUROPE (AND AMERICA)!
FRENCH BLOG ON THE DANGERS OF ISLAM
BLOG EN FRANCAIS SUR LES DANGERS DE L'ISLAM
http://www.avraidire.eu/2009/12/laffaire-des-minarets-en-suisse/
The real problem is that Turkey does not recognize that the Patriarchate is Ecumenical= global in Greek.
Bartholomew is considered the religious leader of all Greek Orthodox Christians living in Greece,US,Australia and everywhere else and the first in rank among the leaders of Orthodox Christianity in general.This happens because this institution was created in 330 A.D. by Roman Emperor Constantine who founded Constantinople and made it capital of the Empire.
The Ottoman Empire recognized the global role of the Patriarchate,and used it for its benefit,but modern Turkey isists that he is the leader of only Greek Orthodox minority in Turkey and that has nothing to do with Turkish secularism but with Turkish nationalism which of course is interwined with secularism and does not want foreigners to have a religious leader in Turkey.It is as if Italy decided that the Pope is leader of only the Italian Catholics and not the Catholics worldwide and forbade any foreigner like now to become Pope.
One could ask what is the problem.Bartholomew is accepted outside Turkey as religious leader of all Orthodox.The problem is that the Greek minority in Turkey is finished-there are only 2000 old men-so Bartholomew has no successor.For the Patriarchate to survive Turkey must accept that it has foreigners in its flock and someone from the Orthodox world outside Turkey to become Patriarch.
Again one could ask why an ancient institution must survive when it has no faithful people in its city.
Just for tradition? Ι dont know.
Anyway if the Patriarchate disappears the center of Greek Orthodox Christianity will go to Athens but the center of Orthodox Christianity as a whole in Moscow.May be it is better that way.
Keep Turkey out of th EU.
For understanding the things that had happened in Turkey to the Christian Orthodox church and population it is enough to think that even only in today’s Istanbul*, the once mighty capital of an empire that lived more than a thousand years, one of the most well known centers of Christianity worldwide, there remains a population of only some two thousand people, most of them elderly ones. So, what happened to the population of the city? Simply, they felt forced to leave. The allegedly modernist Kemalist regime too never stopped discriminating and having always the ‘sunni’s as the ‘real Turks’. It was in the years of this regime that the so infamous pogrom of 5-6 September 1955 took place. It was in Kemalist period again that a so horrible, even as a term, ‘tax of being’ (varlik vergisi) imposed to the Christians. And for those who had not to pay there were "provisions" as the ‘Ashkale camp’… camps-prisons of ‘forced work’. That’s how the whole Byzantine empire’s capital city’s population shrinked to what is today.
Everyone who travels to Istanbul nowadays may see, by his very own eyes, that many tens of the historic mosques of the town are in fact Byzantine churches converted to mosques. But even most of the famous, originally Ottoman mosques too are built by architects of Christian ancestry. The greatest Ottoman architect Sinan is a ‘devshirme’, a Muslim detached from its family when in childhood yet and made a Muslim by force (all the Janitsaries army in Ottoman empire was consituted of 'devshirmes').
No doubt there are ‘sins’ committed in the past from Patriarchate itself, namely slipping from its religious character to a national one, slipping from its imperial, multiethnic ‘Roman’ identity to a very narrow ‘Greek’ one (afflicting so its ‘ecumenicity’ by its very own behavior). But this fact does not alter the reality, Islamic supremacism would continue its work even if the Patriarchate was sinless at all.
What has happened during the Ottoman empire and even modern Turkey to the Christians of those places may be considered as an essentially confirming example of the fears Robert expresses about Islam, here in Jihad Watch.
*the former Constantinople – but ‘Istanbul’ too is a word derived from the Greek expression ‘is-tin-polin’, meaning ‘to the city’ derived from the notion of the Byzantines that Constantinople was the par excellence, archetypal city (polis).
Sonsuz: There's a better safeguard for Turkish democracy than secularism--which secularism, in the West, has proven susceptible to every nuance of Marxist idiocy and, in its struggle with the Erbakans, Erdogans, Khomeinis, Houses of Saud, etc. of this world has almost always failed to stand up for itself.
Don't even trust the rough-edged secularism of China. Even in China, when more eighteen-year-olds apply for baptism than for Communist Party membership (China bans infant baptism), lots of unregistered Christian believers get rounded up and thrown into prison. This happened quite a bit in Fujian and Zhejiang in the early 1990's. But when Muslims riot (at least Hui, if not the Uighurs), they get treated with kid gloves. It seems that secularism is either vulnerable or extremely ugly and cruel(as under Stalin or Mao).
Evangelical Christianity is a better bet--and you have them in house churches in your country. We understand that conversion is between you and God, and the most I cvan do is tell you the message. Evangelicals from the time of Zwingli and Calvin onwards have given ordinary believers a vote in the running of churches; in the 16th and 17th centuries, they started clamoring for at least semi-democracy against the royal absolutists of the Hapsburg and Stuart dynasties.
Besides, even Muslims agree that Jesus, body and soul, sits in heaven awaiting the time to judge the living and the dead (however, we Christians believe he was truly crucified as the atonement for our sins, and then, three days later, rose from the dead; and for the next forty taught his disciples and was seen by over 500 people--Ist Corinthians 15) while the body of Muhammad/Mehmet rests in a grave in Madina in Arabia, awaiting that final judgment along with the rest of the dead.
And, Bible-centered (rather than ritual-centered) Christianity understands that the chosen of God must sometimes live in the shadows or under Babylonian captivity; and chooses to fight its battles spiritually, rather than with guns, swords, arrows, and bombs. Now, I for one believe that sometimes, the state (NOT the church) may declare a just war; but it's always a very last resort. However, many of my brethren are tempted more by the pacifist error than by the crusader one.
I watched the story on CBS 60 Minutes tonight. Veteran Middle East correspondent Bob Simon learned "much to his surprise" that Christianity was founded in Turkey! I guess Mr. Simon has never heard of St. Paul's first-century missions. He probably doesn't know where Ephesus is.
Interviewer Bob Simon asked the Patriarch, "if you are Greek and feel you are treated as a second-class citizen in Turkey, why don't you move to Greece"? Can you imagine if he asked a Turkish ex-patriot in Germany or Parisistan, "why don't you return to Turkey"? Mr. Simon would need his flak jacket if he asked that!
Bartholomew said that the Patriarch of Constantinople must be born in Turkey, according to Turkish law. He gave Bob Simon a tour of the Orthodox seminary, which has been closed since 1971. He is not allowed to train a successor.
athenian wrote:
Anyway if the Patriarchate disappears the center of Greek Orthodox Christianity will go to Athens but the center of Orthodox Christianity as a whole in Moscow.May be it is better that way.
........................
Why would it be "better that way"? Muslims have held Christians under siege in Turkey beginning in the *seventh-century*, when they first began threatening Byzantium. Muslim predations chipped away at Byzantine sovereignty for seven hundred years.
Constantinople finally fell to the Muslim Turks in 1453, and Christians there have been a dhimmified, threatened minority ever since.
The last bloody push to render Turkey rid of Infidels was the Armenian genocide and massacre and expulsion of Christian Greeks in the early 1920s.
Look up Peter Balakian's book, "The Burning Tigris" on the Armenian and Greek genocide, and Giles Milton's "Paradise Lost" for the destruction of the Christian city of Smyrna in 1922.
Video link here:
Watch CBS News Videos Online
Another try, the "embed" tag doesn't point to the specific video:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6001717n&tag=api
Quote from clueless Bob Simon:
"Karabiyik told us, much to our surprise, that the four gospels were written in Turkey and that three of the apostles spread the word there."
More quotes from 60 Minutes transcript:
"The patriarch then sent us to the depths of the Sinai Desert in Egypt, to a Greek Orthodox monastery where early Christians also sought protection. It's called St. Catherine's, and it is located at the foot of Mt. Sinai where, according to tradition, Moses received the Ten Commandments."
[...]
"Then he took us to what the patriarch really wanted us to see: a little-known letter written by the Prophet Mohammed, almost 1,400 years ago, signed and sealed with his hand print, offering protection and religious freedom to the Christians of the monastery.
"These are precedents from Mohammed himself for toleration and peace among people of differing faiths," Father Justin explained."
"These are precedents from Mohammed himself for toleration and peace among people of differing faiths," Father Justin explained."
Long since abrogated I am afraid.
CBS "60 Minutes" failed to mention the jizya payments required as the price of protection. I always thought that "protection money" was demanded only by Organized Crime syndicates.
Turks are beyond redemption. There are only two choices there it seems; islamic fascism or right-wing fascism (which is still very anti-Christian). Only a small minority of Turks are decent. A big war is coming slowly but surely and Turkey will of course side with the Muslims, (dar al islam). They will lose and Asia Minor will be back in the hands of Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians who are the rightful owners. The die has been cast and this war is coming in another generation.
Turks are beyond redemption. There are only two choices there it seems; islamic fascism or right-wing fascism (which is still very anti-Christian). Only a small minority of Turks are decent. A big war is coming slowly but surely and Turkey will of course side with the Muslims, (dar al islam). They will lose and Asia Minor will be back in the hands of Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians who are the rightful owners. The die has been cast and this war is coming in another generation.