Dhimmitude from loopy Leftist Christians who believe the exercise of the Christian Faith consists essentially of executing a program of cultural surrender and moral blindness. "Iran ex-president invited to Washington," from AP, with thanks to Mackie:
WASHINGTON - Despite a diplomatic standoff over nuclear weapons and other difficult issues, a former Iranian president is making plans to speak next month at the Washington National Cathedral.The former president, Mohammad Khatami, would be the most senior Iranian official to visit Washington since Islamic fundamentalists seized the U.S. Embassy in 1979 and held Americans there hostage for 444 days....
A State Department official, who was not authorized to be identified by name, said applications for visas had been received from Khatami and several Iranians who would travel with him.
The applications are under review, the official said....
At the Cathedral, the Rev. Canon John L. Peterson, director of its Center for Global Justice and Reconciliation, said U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan had invited Khatami to participate in a conference Sept. 5-6 to promote dialogue.
He said the church's center "thought it would be appropriate to invite the president to speak on the role that the three Abrahamic faiths can play in shaping peace."
"We have a special commitment to embracing the children of Abraham," he said, referring to Muslims, Christians and Jews.
"The Church calls upon us to engage in reconciliation and understanding by having conversations with people with whom we might disagree," he said.
Evan Anderson, deputy director of the Center, said the former president was in Dubai preparing to apply for permission to visit the United States.
"Any headway that is to be made in U.S.-Iranian relations is very important," Anderson said. Religious groups should play a role in fostering dialogue with Iran, he said.
Khatami would speak at the Cathedral Sept. 7 on the role of Muslims, Christians and Jews in improving world understanding.
I'm sure Evan UNDERSTANDS the correct position that a dhimmi should take - on your knees,lips puckered and ready to kiss ass.
Its very sad to see how some high clergy of catholic church side wery easyly with jihadists. Like iranians ayatolahs and polticians think anything good to vatican, or feels realy sorry for recent tragic deaths of catholic priests in turkey. Just to add to this story, I have read few hours ago, on bosnian news paper "avaz", very similar attitude of bosnian cardinal mons. Vinko Puljic. And all that from man whose communitiy has shrink from 750000 in 1991 to ca. 430000 in 2001. In a country where his muslim counterpart Mustafa Ceric (bosnian mascot of bbc) yesterday meet with grand ayatolah of iran-khamnei, who promise more "help" to bosnian muslims (on conference of muslim unity). It seams that history of "kuffirs" divisions on various issues, repeat itself with tragic counsecvences to civilisation and mankind.
True to habit, Annan comes out once again on the side of Islamic imperialists.
And besides he has a scholarship to Yale. He will be 5th string quarteback on the football team as well. He will be the one with the turban shaped helmet.
Thanks, January Man! You've already made my day. I wonder if any of the high priests at the National Cathedral will remember the murder of the assistant Anglican bishop in Iran that took place about 12 years ago by the same regime that Khatami is still very much a part of to this day. Perhaps Canon Peterson of the Center for Global Justice and Reconciliation could invite the murdered bishop's family to the conference; Everyone could see for themselves how much peace and love Khatami and his thugs have in their heart when they come face to face with the murdered man's loved ones.
They need a good dose of their own medicine –constant chants of ‘Death to Iran’ and ‘Death to Islam’ would both be perfectly justified.
Why doesn’t somebody kidnap this bastard in retaliation for our embassy’s attack those many years ago?
Why doesn’t someone just cut his head off, film it all in front of an American flag, and spread it all over the internet?
Fight fire with fire.
Why doesn’t someone just cut his head off, film it all in front of an American flag, and spread it all over the internet?
Fight fire with fire.
Probably, cos if someone do that to some guy even of bin laden calibar, than rest of western leftist media (not to mention muslim ones) would poin a finger on that single event and say: "see, what did we tall ya. bigotry is not just muslim patent.there is also western terrorism (if you get lucky, may pass with only "insurgency" or "extremist" title).
"Its very sad to see how some high clergy of catholic church side wery easyly with jihadists"
Posted by: svemirko
Pope John Paul II was notoriously pliant with Islamic officials and holds much to account for for the weakness of so many Catholic officials today. The good news is that the new pope, Benedict XVI, is leading the Church in a very different direction, than did his predecessor ("Thanks be to God!"). Part of this change is the replacement of Cardinal Angelo Sodano by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, as head of the Holy See's Secretariate of State, which is responsible, among other things for the Church's relations with states.
It is also clear from Benedict's speeches, remarks and communiques, that the new pope is assuming a much more critical and combative policy toward Islam and its very bad behaviour. Not fast enough for my tastes, thank you very much, and remnants of the older policy may persist in some circles for awhile, but change is definitely in the wind, and the Church is shaking off its old blinkers. Recently a prominent Italian Archbishop publicly proclaimed "Enough of this turning the other cheek already! Our duty is to defend ourselves! Amen.
As for the National Cathedral, I thought this is Episcopalian.
"As for the National Cathedral, I thought this is Episcopalian"
"Posted by: templar at August 23, 2006 10:45 AM"
It is indeed the property of ECUSA...and GOD knows that liberals need extra prayers' too.
KnightHawk
Svemirko
Okay …so? So what? Let them point their fingers and claim bigotry –for that one event, hundreds of other crimes committed by Muslims to non-believers can be pointed out. Maybe with a little spin (because that’s what the entire ME conflict really is: media relations. We saw it with the doctored photos and Hezbollah getting trounced and then proclaiming victory …reality is only what you make it over there) we could spin it into bigotry against our country or ‘anti-Americanism’ to not behead an Islamic scumbag every now and again. As I see it, the West has a lot of barbarity to catch up on.
Personally, I think if we acted the way they acted against us, they’d think differently about being so barbaric. That’s exactly how they’re winning nowadays in non-Muslim lands: by using the rules of the modern societies and civilizations (i.e. those who are ‘civilized’) and bending them to their needs.
Wouldn’t a little craziness go a long way? We’re currently struggling with ways in which to deal with people who don’t think like we do, seem irrational, and can’t be reasoned with. It may be barbaric, but if all of those prisoners in Gitmo were beheaded rather than being forced to pose naked, we’d spark a new dialogue with those who wish our society ill: you f*ck with us and we’re willing to get down into the dirt and mud and play by your own rules.
I think we’d be hearing a different tune if we took off the kid gloves once and for all and went ‘medieval on their @sses’.
"Dhimmitude from loopy Leftist Christians"
What's ironic is that most Leftists don't realize that most Christians fall under the penumbra of PC Multiculturalism -- either directly, by being "loopy Leftist", or indirectly, by having breathed in the gas that Leftism has released into the atmospherics of the West, a gas that has become the dominant air most of us breathe now.
Most Leftists, nevertheless, continue, against the facts, to push the stereotype of Christians (particularly American Christians) as right-wing neo-fascists.
If the State Department grants him a visa to visit the US, Pat Robertson's suggestion about it should be executed - the whole department, with all its personnel, deserve to be blown up.
Don't give me the analogy about visas being issued to Iranian diplomats working at the UN. Not remotely the same thing.
Ah me! It's wonderful! We're building bridges again!
As has been pointed out many times before, a bridge that has solid footings only on one side is simply a plank along which, sooner or later, we will all be told to walk.
Reconciliation and forgiveness are central to Christianity, but surely Canon Peterson knows that a Christian can only offer to turn his own cheek to injustice and not offer up that of his neighbor as well. Indeed, a Christian would rather lay down his life for his friend than let evil befall him. So when confronted with global evil, a Christian must be clear in his rejection and resistance to it for the benefit of the world's innocents.
Well, in the person of Mohammad Khatami, evil comes to the National Cathedral. Please Mr. Peterson, remember your priorities.
Hugh,
That was a really good post. I don't always agree with everything you write, but man that post was right on the money. Thanks for putting so eloquently in words what probably many of us were thinking.
I will remember those points you made for the next time I come into contact with a "PC" Christian, which is quite often actually.....
Of course I will probably be accused of being a right wing fundamentalist or some other such nonsense, but ow well....
****
templar, I agree with you on Pope Benedict. He is taking on islam and also secularism head on. It really is a battle of good versus evil.
As you also stated, he is up against many within the Vatican with similar views to that of Cardinal Angelo Sodano, so it will be a slow process. In addition, the Vatican itself moves very slowly, but more change will come.
I want to see Christian leaders invited to Iran and other moslem countries "to speak", without getting thrown in jail. Where is the reciprocity? Actually it would probably be quite instructive for them. They would learn about the concept of being a dhimmi first hand and maybe then, they would realize with whom they are trying to have a dialogue with. With all due respect these people are fools playing into the hands of the propagandists of the piggishly jihad loving citizens of Iran and other middle east countries. Did hitler and goebbels get such invites except from the likes of Chamberlain. Somewhere there must be an American Churchill in the wings.
Western Values are worth fighting for. One only needs to remember what Patrick Henry said to understand this.
Why are we giving any moslems, even those who have never been to America, such as those we rescued from Lebanon--only to find them suing the US for not bringing them here fast enough--visas to come here. (By the way does anybody know where these people are today?)
STOP ALL moslem IMMIGRATION to the US! NOW! The state departnment and consular officials need start thinking about defending this country.
By the way Maxinfidel, I agree. Its time for the FINAL CRUSADE!
As for our friend KOFI: let's give him the ol' Bronx cheer!!
Won't these people ever learn? There is no reciprocity between dar al islam and Dar al Harb. Sometimes Evil is just what it seems--Uncompromising. Deal with it!
IT took 400 years for Europe to react to moslem incursions for the Christian Crusades to be carried out. We don't have that time!
Khatami was part of the group that held our embassy captives for 444 days. They sponsored the murder of US Marines in Lebanon. They sponsored death in South America. In fact where haven't they sponsored mayhem and murder? They are not seriously dealing with the ongoing nuclear talks. It is time we barred them barred them from the US and other parts of the civilized world. In fact we should bar all moslems since they are just advance 5th column units of a sick cult. CAIR is just the tip of the iceberg.
Won't these people ever learn? There is no reciprocity between dar al islam and Dar al Harb. Sometimes Evil is just what it seems--Uncompromising. Deal with it!
IT took 400 years for Europe to react to moslem incursions for the Christian Crusades to be carried out. We don't have that time!
Khatami was part of the group that held our embassy captives for 444 days. They sponsored the murder of US Marines in Lebanon. They sponsored death in South America. In fact where haven't they sponsored mayhem and murder? They are not seriously dealing with the ongoing nuclear talks. It is time we barred them barred them from the US and other parts of the civilized world. In fact we should bar all moslems since they are just advance 5th column units of a sick cult. CAIR is just the tip of the iceberg.
Shame on the National Cathredral!
Rev. Canon John L. Peterson, director of its Center for Global Justice and Reconciliation,
Now, ain't that pious?
Flashlight?
Funnel?
Now can you find your own a**?
But you are, and you especially TV. There are few posters more fascist than you, remote control and Gary.
A valid stereotype based on the pronouncements of American Christian spokesmen, like Fartwell, Buchanan, Robertson, Dobson, Phelps, etc et al.
Are you at all familiar with Christian Reconstructionism, or Dominionist theology, google Gary North, Lew Rockwell, Chalcedon Foundation, American Enterprise Institute..visit any Baptist Church, tune into the 700 club, even a Presbyterian Church.. and you will encounter fascists (o.k. proto Fascists, mullah look alikes everywhere)..as an "Islamophobic" "liberal", I cannot see any substantial difference between Islam and right wing Christianity..for starters they are both "right wing", "conservative", traditionalists, "family values".. and even Ann Coulter fessed up that she seeks alliance with muslims because of their conservative "family values"..(code word acknowledged).
Do not disavow your leadership.
visit any Baptist Church, tune into the 700 club, even a Presbyterian Church.. and you will encounter fascists
You really are a nut, aren't you Giaour?
And another fine thread is hijacked by the athiest agenda.Nice.
And the American authorities should arrest Khatami for being the terrorist-sponsoring thug that he is.
Christianity follows the TEN COMMANDMENTS one of them being "THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER." Muslims like Khatami do not have to abide by it--and don't. No Christians should EVER permit terrorists and terrorism-sponsors such as this man to enter their religious edifices!
This, without a doubt, is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of any American Christians doing!
(K)nariz: Go back to your Playstation.
I can. When someone like Robertson makes a ridiculous, inflammatory comment (like that old chestnut about setting off a nuke at the State Dept.), there is widespread outrage, and a vast population of mainstream Christians disavows what he said.
Publicly and privately. No winking and whispering over coffee and doughnuts after services.
Moreover, continuing with Robertson as a high-profile case study, how many 700 Club viewers have been incited to murder, riot etc.?
Even for the most hardcore, reactionary Christian movement, there does not exist in the Old or New Testaments the same arsenal of scriptural justification, or scriptural passages taken as a blank check to kill and subjugate for all time, as in the Qur'an.
On the contrary, much of the militaristic rhetoric that comes out of movements claiming a Christian affiliation comes instead out of interpretations of and extrapolations on books like Revelation and Daniel. But as a consequence, it's harder to form a consensus on "marching orders" (such as the Verse of the Sword in the Qur'an), and a tremendous stretch to cobble together anything resembling the doctrine of jihad.
So I disagree with the notion of moral equivalency found in the quote above.
Moreover, I find unhelpful the notion that all religion, or lack of religion, or all right- or left-wingers, or whatever other group one has an axe to grind with, are "the problem" where jihad is concerned.
Jihad is "the problem," and the task at hand is building awareness in all corners, for every political party, religious affiliation, PTA, bowling team, whatever group you like or don't like, has its share of clueless elements to be called out -- which we do here, without partiality.
Giaour/Nariz, the "legions" of fascist Christians you rub elbows with haven't threatened to decapitate you or enslave you, and they will never declare jihad against the rest of the world. Nor will they attempt to forcibly impose their values and beliefs on you or anyone else. Do you have any idea how radical, paranoid, and ignorant you appear when you make such irrational remarks?
If you cannot see any difference between rabid muslim jihadists and "right wing" or any other variety of Christians, it is only because you don't want to.
Just curious, but what do you have against "family values?" As you well know, Christians have an entirely different perspective on family values than muslims. Christians practice monogamous marriage and spousal equality, a far cry from muslim "family values." Are traditional, Western family values preventing Big Brother from engendering a society of fatherless children raised by illiterate, impoverished, single mothers dependent on a socialist state for survival? Is that your idea of utopia? Or maybe you would prefer the feminazi ideal, where fatherless children are raised in government daycare centers by the politically correct gestapo, while "mom" pursues her career and feminist activism.
I don't know why you're worried about islamic imperialism and jihad. Islam's potential to inflict pain, misery, and destruction is about on par with the vacuous, valueless, nihilistic standards you extol. You are a colossal ass.
There is a complex bundle of points to be made in response to what Nariz said, and in turn, to what others said in response to him.
1) The type of Christian Nariz is referring to -- "Christian Reconstructionism, or Dominionist theology, google Gary North, Lew Rockwell, Chalcedon Foundation, American Enterprise Institute..visit any Baptist Church, tune into the 700 club, even a Presbyterian Church.. and you will encounter fascists (o.k. proto Fascists" -- is I would maintain a relative minority in the overall constellation of Christians in the West. For one thing, some of the examples he adduces seem to have rather frayed edges of semi-coherency (e.g., "even a Presbyterian Church" -- I've known Presbyterians, and most of them are airheaded liberals who wouldn't dream of "insulting" Islam by reading "Islamophobic" materials to educate themselves on the subject), or refer to a past ("Christian Reconstructionism") that has evolved remarkably toward progress. There are quasi-fascists among some of these Christian groups Nariz adduces, but again, they are a minority in the overall constellation of Christians in the West. Most Christians in the West are either outright Leftists, or are sincere, well-meaning, starry-eyed types who have been infected with the PC Multiculturalist template, and therefore they like Hans Kung and Joseph Campbell and Martin Marty and Elaine Pagels and Karen Armstrong and they think that going on a retreat to bond with Native American Shamans and Zen Buddhist monks is exactly equivalent to finding common "bridge-building" cause with that other "great Abrahamic faith", Islam.
2) I have noticed that both sides of this kind of disagreement ignore the forest for the trees: Christians in the West, of whatever stripe, are surrounded by a larger more powerful sociopolitical culture of secularism. This has been the case for at least 200 years, and with each passing generation, each passing decade since then, the dominance of secularism in every realm of life -- laws, politics, society, culture -- has increased dramatically. In the Muslim orbit, there is no such surrounding sea of secularism -- other than an artificial one that was imposed upon Muslims by a dominant West (making it doubly offensive to the Muslim mind). In the Muslim world, the analogous term, Islam (to the one Nariz so casually bandies, Christianity), has no real surrounding and dominant buffer zone of secularism as Christianity in the West has learned to have to live with and to take a back seat to in most realms of life. Thus, on this one colossal level, the analogy Nariz puts forth falls flat on its face. Nariz, like many Leftists, treats the West (and/or America) as "Christian" -- just as many ignorant Muslims do, not even seeing the larger secularism that surrounds the dismantled pieces of a former Christendom. Similarly, though, I've noticed that many Jihadwatchers (in the loose sense including those here) who are apparently Christians do likewise, unduly exaggerating the Christianity of America. America is, in many respects, Christian; but in many respects it has also evolved into a polity that cultivates a neutral framework of secularism around its Christianity -- and not only around its Christianity, but also around all other faiths. It is this neutral, functionally agnostic framework that makes America great and unique in world history.
3) Finally, I would respectfully disagree with Marisol above insofar as her plea that we all try to work together regardless of differences: in any important movement-in-progress some differences are important, particularly when they are hampering one of the main focuses of the movement: and the Leftist penumbra (which includes outright Leftists as well as a larger more amorphous motley crew of starry-eyed optimists who have become deformed by that latter progeny of Leftism, PC Multiculturalism) adheres to positions that differ from our main focus -- the perniciousness of Islam -- sufficiently to make them not our friends, but nuisances at best, and, at worst, a Fifth Column supporting the Five Pillars of Islam.
Let's all go to the event and ask Mr. Khatami and Canon Petersen about the murder of Margaret Deqhani-Tafti, wife of Bp. Hassan Deqhani-Tafti, and the near murder of the bishop himself (he fled to Cyprus) back in 1980. Let's ask as well about the murder of Aristo Sayeh, Anglican vicar in Shiraz. Let's ask about the more recent imprisonments and death sentences meted out to non-Anglican Christians Lake David Rabbani, Pastor Hovanissian, and others.
Let's especially ask Canon Petersen why he welcomes a man who has so much Christian blood on his hands; and ask how he dares to continue in his ostensible role as a shepherd to Christ's flock.
Most of all, let us invite Mr. Khatami to turn away from the false prophet and pedophile Muhammad to embrace Jesus the Messiah, who bled on the cross for our sins and is God incarnate.
Television and remote_control are the same poster.
kepha: When Mr. Khatami goes in one direction, I will go in the exact opposite direction!
Knowing this guy, he'd probably arrange to have the cathedral blown up. He fits my concept of an evil Zombie-master!
While theoretically I agree with you, in practice, I wouldn't go near Khatami with a 600 foot-long pole!!
Silvester, when I post as remote_control, I have frequently signed my posts "remote_control, aka Television".
Infidel pride: I would not follow Pat RObertson's suggestions. He has said many a "ths saith the LORD" without book, chapter, and verse--and those things did not come to pass. He falls under the warnings in Deuteronomy 18 about false prophets; and hence joins a noble company that includes Joe Smith of Western New York and Mo of Mecca himself.
I'm almost positive that FOggy Bottom won't issue Khatami a visa. But, if they do, we should press for Khatami's arrest for his part in the embassy invasion of 1979 as soon as he hits an American tarmac.
By the way, I'm sending the following message to Washington Cathedral (Episcopal Church USA) to express my displeasure (message below line of asterisks)
***************************
Your Disgrace:
In deepest sorrow, from a fellow Christian:
How can you possibly invite to a place of Christian worship the reprehensible Khatami, on whose savage, bigoted hands is the blood of many Christians, including your fellow Anglicans the Deqhani-Taftis (the assualt on Bishop Hassan and murder of his wife Margaret, the murder of his son Bahrain; the murder of Vicar Aristo Sayeh)? What of present-day Iran, where it is a capital offense to convert from Islam to Christianity?
Does the Episcopalian Church so hate Christianity that it favors the maker of martyrs who denies that God became incarnate; denies that Jesus died on the cross, bears false witness against the Jews by saying that they see Uzair as the Son of God the same way as Christians view Isa-al-Masih, and ignores the ignominious record of the Islamic Republic of Iran towards ALL of its religious minorities?
Has Episcopalianism come to the point where the denial of human sinfulness leads it to condone not only private sexual transgression, but also to politely join with utter hatred against the Gospel of Peace--that message of God taking on our flesh, dying for our sins, and rising in triumph over sins and death; against which Islam has railed for 1400 years; and without which all your eucharistic celebrations are a sham and a lie?
For shame! The noble army of the martyrs looks down on heaven on you and says "tsk! tsk!"
In mourning for what was once a great church,
Kepha, you're not kidding!! The Episcopals I know are total nut cases.
I can't imagine by under what moral code they make these choices.
You can love your enemies without encouraging them and giving them a stage from which to spread their poison.
They don't seem to feel that their fellow Christians who are being imprisoned and tortured matter at all. Polital correctness has taken the place of ethics and even good sense.
It this Khatami a reformer? If so this may p**s off the maniacs in charge in Iran.
I'd like to improve world understanding too! How about a big photomontage of terror victims posted at the entrance to the cathedral. That's the kind of understanding all of us need.
Muslims worship a blood-drenched moon god; Jews and Christians don't worship One True God. How can their be anything on which to dialogue? Muslims claim to be children of Abraham; however, they are not heirs of the promise by faith through Abraham. What's to dialogue about? If Muslims worshipped the God of Abraham, then killing and blood would not figure so prominently in Islam. That it does signifies that Muslims worship another god. Since they have rejected the God of Abraham, then then it matters not that they claim Abraham as father because he had no power. It was God who called Abraham a father of many nations and blessed him with seed innumerable. Those seed who are blessed with faithful Abraham are those who have received the promise given to him by God because they believe in God who has created faith in them. THat is not Muslims cuz they reject the Judaeo-Christian God. So what dialogue can there be? None.
Ice Dragon: Hell, no!! Khatami is a jihadist and a sponsor of Hizbollah, the world's largest terrorist organization. Is this your idea of reform???
Elsewhere today:
Former Iranian President of Iran and Head of the International Center for Dialogue Among Civilizations Mohammad Khatami will deliver the 13th U Thant lecture at UN House in Tokyo on August 25 at 9:30 a.m.
It's time to pull the plug on this whole UN gag!
The Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles is circulating a petition to have Khatami's visa request refused.